87 replies to this topic

[GangGreen25]

^^ Yeah forgot to do the Pats. Their SB teams were loaded with first round picks and young veteran FA signings who improved with them (like Vrabel).

http://blog.masslive...ts_draft-d.html

Read the article it illustates all I was trying to say, Pats are more active on trade day either using late picks they have to move up or collect late picks to move back. Clearly this activity proves what value they see in mid to late round picks. Their known for this, its all I was saying.

[GangGreen25]

You don't seem to have done any research?

Just did feel free to read the article if you would like, ilustrates all I was saying.

[SenorGato]

http://blog.masslive...ts_draft-d.html

Read the article it illustates all I was trying to say, Pats are more active on trade day either using late picks they have to move up or collect late picks to move back. Clearly this activity proves what value they see in mid to late round picks. Their known for this, its all I was saying.

Yes, the Pats are known for stockpiling picks in recent years. It's probably more complicated than a fascination with mid round guys....For one thing they have the hard stuff to find (HC, QB, stud interior DLman, and OL talent)...for another Brady, Mankins, Light and Wilfork are expensive so they need cheaper talent surrounding them...probably more but typing on the phone is no bueno.

Edited by SenorGato, 08 April 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Sperm Edwards]

I am not going to do all the research but feel free to if you would like, but have you left room for the possibility that at least on a few occasions The Pats traded up in those2nd rounds with mid round picks to get those players. I don't mind having a comment over analyzed but again the simple point I was trying to make was I don't like giving up draft picks for back up quarterbacks. Of course better players will come from 1st and 2nd rounds, seems too obvious to even state. But plenty of great players come from later round picks, including Hall of Famers. Bottom line Pats do like to collect late round picks and they have won championships. Wayne Chrebet and Bart Scott were undrafted, Cotchery a 4th rounder, Jim Leonard undrafted free agent, it's easy to pick out a few names to defend a position.

Yep. Some teams just know the value of a 4th round pick (to say nothing of a pick even higher) and some don't. I forget which team drafted these players for the purpose of filling backup QB roster spots.


2002 Rohan Davey 4th round
2008 Kevin O'Connell 3rd round
2011 Ryan Mallett 3rd round

[GangGreen25]

And too eliminate the othe what...10 guys there is intelligent because if warped around a little (again) it might help your point? There's arguably three other HOFers there with Seymour, Wilfork, and Mankins....all first rounders.

No one is denying that good players can be found later in the draft. Sheer numbers pretty much dictate that that will happen...Great teams will have those guys...they'll also have vet FAs who were already good...good vet FAs who improved on their second team...theyll still be be carried by their best players, which will typically be drafted long before the 4th and of course the QB.

And that is all I was saying. If you prefer Tebow to a pick than you liked the move. My comment was actually directly commenting to someone who said the move didn't cost much. That is okay from a fans perspective but I want a GM who relishes picks because he has the confidance to believe he will find a starter.

[JiF]

I am not going to do all the research but feel free to if you would like, but have you left room for the possibility that at least on a few occasions The Pats traded up in those2nd rounds with mid round picks to get those players. I don't mind having a comment over analyzed but again the simple point I was trying to make was I don't like giving up draft picks for back up quarterbacks. Of course better players will come from 1st and 2nd rounds, seems too obvious to even state. But plenty of great players come from later round picks, including Hall of Famers. Bottom line Pats do like to collect late round picks and they have won championships. Wayne Chrebet and Bart Scott were undrafted, Cotchery a 4th rounder, Jim Leonard undrafted free agent, it's easy to pick out a few names to defend a position.

Finding a few players in the later round is different than saying, you build championship teams in the later rounds, which is what you said. Maybe I'm over exaggerating the point but thats how I took it.

You can find gems in the later rounds, no doubt but Championship teams are built with first 3 round picks generally speaking.

And to eliminate Brady from the equation is like eliminating Joe Montana from the 49ers a late 3rd round pick.

The first 3 rounds are all that matters IMO. Thats where you have to be good. The later rounds is just getting lucky basically.

[GangGreen25]

Finding a few players in the later round is different than saying, you build championship teams in the later rounds, which is what you said. Maybe I'm over exaggerating the point but thats how I took it.

You can find gems in the later rounds, no doubt but Championship teams are built with first 3 round picks generally speaking.



The first 3 rounds are all that matters IMO. Thats where you have to be good. The later rounds is just getting lucky basically.

There may be some luck to it, but there is absolutely something to the skill of evaluating talent. Those that do it better have better sucess in mid to late rounds and FA signings. Matt Millen single handedly kept the Lions in the cellar for years. There may have been some exaggerating to make my point which simply was I like a GM to have such confidance in his ability that maybe he would want a 4 and 6 rather than taking a flyer on Tebow and a 7. Or watched the first three quarters Tebow played against us and maybe not want him at all. Or watched some of those fine comeback wins and realize in one he completed 2 passes and in another a RB running out of bounds and later fumbling had more to do with that win than Tebow.

Do you think extending Sanchez to free cap space and offer 2 extra years of guarenteed money which means worst case we eat his salary for 2013 if he totally sucks next year was worse than giving up picks for a back up QB that can run the wildcat and attract 10 times more media to camp than usual?

[SenorGato]

Tebow and a 7th >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and 6

I don't even like Tebow and that's a no brainer. The only reason to even think twice (if you don't have a QB already) is all the press, and so long as he and his pr people handle that then no one really gives a crap. You say winning a game completing only two passes like it's a bad thing...for HIS stats sure...pretty sure his team got what they needed, which is what reality cares about.

Maybe if Tebow opened up all his press conferences by blowing a line off a hooker they'd reconsider. Unfortunately/Fortunately he's just some really nice guy with some really strong western society approved beliefs and a desire to play QB, which he hasn't been unsuccessful at just unconventional.

Edited by SenorGato, 09 April 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[T0mShane]

Sooooooo to summarize, having a roster where players 10-23 are JAG and players 24-53 are sub-JAG is ok because the Cowboys had Troy Aikman.

[JiF]

There may be some luck to it, but there is absolutely something to the skill of evaluating talent. Those that do it better have better sucess in mid to late rounds and FA signings. Matt Millen single handedly kept the Lions in the cellar for years. There may have been some exaggerating to make my point which simply was I like a GM to have such confidance in his ability that maybe he would want a 4 and 6 rather than taking a flyer on Tebow and a 7. Or watched the first three quarters Tebow played against us and maybe not want him at all. Or watched some of those fine comeback wins and realize in one he completed 2 passes and in another a RB running out of bounds and later fumbling had more to do with that win than Tebow. Do you think extending Sanchez to free cap space and offer 2 extra years of guarenteed money which means worst case we eat his salary for 2013 if he totally sucks next year was worse than giving up picks for a back up QB that can run the wildcat and attract 10 times more media to camp than usual?

I dont see how trading for Tebow means that the Jets doesnt have confidence in picking during the mid round picks. The Jets have been pretty solid in the 4th+. Since 04, the Jets have found the likes of Cotchery, Leon, Brad Smith, Eric Smith, Dwight Lowery, Coleman, Dressen, Rhodes, Slauson, McKnight, Kerley...thats pretty good comparatively speaking working with a very small number of late round picks.

And besides. The value exchange was a bargain. How often does a starter who just won his division and a playoff game come available as a back up for a 4th round pick? The answer is never. So, I dont see how this was a bad deal, at all. Besides, if Tanny see's value in the 4th, he has plenty of picks to trade and move up which we've seen him do in the mid rounds plenty of times before.

[#27TheDominator]

Besides, if Tanny see's value in the 4th, he has plenty of picks to trade and move up which we've seen him do in the mid rounds plenty of times before.

and show lack of confidence in his ability to find players in the 6th and 7th rounds?

[CoachTsurfing]

we needed a back-up qb, we spent a fourth rounder on him. I don't think we could have found a better back up qb then tebow. look at it a little more closely. he's a back up that's going to contribute this year. maybe not at qb, but he will in running the wild cat and at goal situations on occasion. not to mention, there's a small chance he could be the starting qb eventually.

[denden29]

This whole thing has nothing to do with a 4^th round pick. The fact is the Jets had two options here:

1) From years of hard building, using free agency trading away picks, they found themselves with an aging team which lacked depth and tight financial resources. So they had to be frugal in free agency.

The Jets have signed 8 FA (Pouha, Maybin, tendered he’ll sign, Stanton, now gone but was signed, Schilens, Landry, Folk, Thomas, Scotty McKnight) I’m not counting Hayden Smith since we haven’t seen the contract and I’m sure its garbage anyway. How many of the eight signed a multi-year deal? One Pouha, why? Because the Jets can afford to carry over any big salaries into 2013, Leonhard, Edwards or any other signings will be cheap probably vet min. one year deals. The reality was the Jets couldn’t afford Mario Williams, Carl Nicks or even Eric Winston. Do you hear about the Jets interested in anyone, oh 34 year old Yeremiah Bell sure he’ll cost much.

The strategy was to sign cheap stop gaps and use the draft where the team would have lots of picks. They signed Sanchez and Stanton to back-up, not great but better than Brunell and could win you a game if he had to start. The Jets would use what resources they had financial and draft to build the team for 2012 and beyond. They would give Sanchez another year under new OC Sparano and as many upgrades to the offense as possible. So 2012 would be a make or break for Sanchez, he would be out of excuses.

2) Trade for a QB. They traded for Tebow he cost $2.25 million in cap space and #108 draft pick. So you’ve used financial and draft resources to get Tebow.

You can feel the Jets would be better off with strategy one or that Tebow brings more to the team then the lost resources. We could debate this all day.

My problem is not with the pick it is with the fact that the Jets front office thinks the fans are a bunch of morons. Tebow did not choose to come to the Jets, yes he chose to come here if Jacksonville had offer to pay the $5 million and give a 2^nd round pick Tebow would be a Jaguar the difference was marginal so Denver let Tebow decide, but he know he could become the starter in New York and he will.

Why didn’t the Jets just admit that the job is open to either play instead of lying saying Tebow is the wildcat QB. Do you think Tebow wants to be the wildcat QB? No, he wants to start, the guy has wanted to be a QB his whole life.

I personally feel Sanchez’s Jets career is finished, he is in a no win situation, and Tebow will be the starter by 2013, earlier more likely. Again you can debate if this is better or worse for the team but this will happen Sanchez is gone there is no way these two co-exist. If the Jets really wanted to run the wildcat they could have drafted a Brad Smith type who could play WR and return punts to come in 5-8 plays a game. Tebow is here for one reason to replace Sanchez and you won’t change my mind.

The Jets choose door number 2 making a splashy move hope it doesn’t bite them later. The cracks from this ‘mortgage the future’ building have started to show and it’s not getting better anytime soon. Just have to wait and see what happens, but whether you like it or not Tebow will be the starting QB, I guarantee it.

Edited by denden29, 09 April 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[JiF]

and show lack of confidence in his ability to find players in the 6th and 7th rounds?

lmfao

MATT SLAUSON!!!

[T0mShane]

This whole thing has nothing to do with a 4^th round pick. The fact is the Jets had two options here:

1) From years of hard building, using free agency trading away picks, they found themselves with an aging team which lacked depth and tight financial resources. So they had to be frugal in free agency.

The Jets have signed 8 FA (Pouha, Maybin, tendered he’ll sign, Stanton, now gone but was signed, Schilens, Landry, Folk, Thomas, Scotty McKnight) I’m not counting Hayden Smith since we haven’t seen the contract and I’m sure its garbage anyway. How many of the eight signed a multi-year deal? One Pouha, why? Because the Jets can afford to carry over any big salaries into 2013, Leonhard, Edwards or any other signings will be cheap probably vet min. one year deals. The reality was the Jets couldn’t afford Mario Williams, Carl Nicks or even Eric Winston. Do you hear about the Jets interested in anyone, oh 34 year old Yeremiah Bell sure he’ll cost much.

The strategy was to sign cheap stop gaps and use the draft where the team would have lots of picks. They signed Sanchez and Stanton to back-up, not great but better than Brunell and could win you a game if he had to start. The Jets would use what resources they had financial and draft to build the team for 2012 and beyond. They would give Sanchez another year under new OC Sparano and as many upgrades to the offense as possible. So 2012 would be a make or break for Sanchez, he would be out of excuses.

2) Trade for a QB. They traded for Tebow he cost $2.25 million in cap space and #108 draft pick. So you’ve used financial and draft resources to get Tebow.

You can feel the Jets would be better off with strategy one or that Tebow brings more to the team then the lost resources. We could debate this all day.

My problem is not with the pick it is with the fact that the Jets front office thinks the fans are a bunch of morons. Tebow did not choose to come to the Jets, yes he chose to come here if Jacksonville had offer to pay the $5 million and give a 2^nd round pick Tebow would be a Jaguar the difference was marginal so Denver let Tebow decide, but he know he could become the starter in New York and he will.

Why didn’t the Jets just admit that the job is open to either play instead of lying saying Tebow is the wildcat QB. Do you think Tebow wants to be the wildcat QB? No, he wants to start, the guy has wanted to be a QB his whole life.

I personally feel Sanchez’s Jets career is finished, he is in a no win situation, and Tebow will be the starter by 2013, earlier more likely. Again you can debate if this is better or worse for the team but this will happen Sanchez is gone there is no way these two co-exist. If the Jets really wanted to run the wildcat they could have drafted a Brad Smith type who could play WR and return punts to come in 5-8 plays a game. Tebow is here for one reason to replace Sanchez and you won’t change my mind.

The Jets choose door number 2 making a splashy move hope it doesn’t bite them later. The cracks from this ‘mortgage the future’ building have started to show and it’s not getting better anytime soon. Just have to wait and see what happens, but whether you like it or not Tebow will be the starting QB, I guarantee it.

Great post. JiF and Gato smoke a lot of weed.

[JiF]

This whole thing has nothing to do with a 4^th round pick. The fact is the Jets had two options here:

1) From years of hard building, using free agency trading away picks, they found themselves with an aging team which lacked depth and tight financial resources. So they had to be frugal in free agency.

The Jets have signed 8 FA (Pouha, Maybin, tendered he’ll sign, Stanton, now gone but was signed, Schilens, Landry, Folk, Thomas, Scotty McKnight) I’m not counting Hayden Smith since we haven’t seen the contract and I’m sure its garbage anyway. How many of the eight signed a multi-year deal? One Pouha, why? Because the Jets can afford to carry over any big salaries into 2013, Leonhard, Edwards or any other signings will be cheap probably vet min. one year deals. The reality was the Jets couldn’t afford Mario Williams, Carl Nicks or even Eric Winston. Do you hear about the Jets interested in anyone, oh 34 year old Yeremiah Bell sure he’ll cost much.

The strategy was to sign cheap stop gaps and use the draft where the team would have lots of picks. They signed Sanchez and Stanton to back-up, not great but better than Brunell and could win you a game if he had to start. The Jets would use what resources they had financial and draft to build the team for 2012 and beyond. They would give Sanchez another year under new OC Sparano and as many upgrades to the offense as possible. So 2012 would be a make or break for Sanchez, he would be out of excuses.

2) Trade for a QB. They traded for Tebow he cost $2.25 million in cap space and #108 draft pick. So you’ve used financial and draft resources to get Tebow.

You can feel the Jets would be better off with strategy one or that Tebow brings more to the team then the lost resources. We could debate this all day.

My problem is not with the pick it is with the fact that the Jets front office thinks the fans are a bunch of morons. Tebow did not choose to come to the Jets, yes he chose to come here if Jacksonville had offer to pay the $5 million and give a 2^nd round pick Tebow would be a Jaguar the difference was marginal so Denver let Tebow decide, but he know he could become the starter in New York and he will.

Why didn’t the Jets just admit that the job is open to either play instead of lying saying Tebow is the wildcat QB. Do you think Tebow wants to be the wildcat QB? No, he wants to start, the guy has wanted to be a QB his whole life.

I personally feel Sanchez’s Jets career is finished, he is in a no win situation, and Tebow will be the starter by 2013, earlier more likely. Again you can debate if this is better or worse for the team but this will happen Sanchez is gone there is no way these two co-exist. If the Jets really wanted to run the wildcat they could have drafted a Brad Smith type who could play WR and return punts to come in 5-8 plays a game. Tebow is here for one reason to replace Sanchez and you won’t change my mind.

The Jets choose door number 2 making a splashy move hope it doesn’t bite them later. The cracks from this ‘mortgage the future’ building have started to show and it’s not getting better anytime soon. Just have to wait and see what happens, but whether you like it or not Tebow will be the starting QB, I guarantee it.

While 1. is obvious and 2. is clearly an opinion - I'm still overall confused by your post.

How were those the only 2 options the Jets had? And what does that have to do with building through mid to late round picks?

<3

[JiF]

Great post. JiF and Gato smoke a lot of weed.

Not true. I quit a while ago. I'm on a health kick these days.

[denden29]

While 1. is obvious and 2. is clearly an opinion - I'm still overall confused by your post.

How were those the only 2 options the Jets had? And what does that have to do with building through mid to late round picks?

<3

Basically the choices were:1) hold on to their draft picks, which the Jets have not done in the recent past, or 2) trade some for a player which they did again.

If you look at their actions, being cheap, you would think they would value the draft more this year and not trade their picks. You could have gotten Ryans from Houston for a 4^th he would be a great addition but the salary is too high. Maybe you could have gotten marshall, even though I doubt the Phins would trade to the Jets, but hypothetical for two 3’s but can’t afford his $9 million salary. Circumstances prevent moves even ones which help the team.

The Jets had trade picks for players for years as you know and now lots of those players are gone. It just seemed like the situation prevented trading picks this year looking at 2013 but the Jets choose to trade some late round picks again.

You can argue about how much value a late round pick has #108 could be a starter or bust but the Jets have had 23 picks over the last 5 years while the league average is 40. It just seemed like while you’d like to do something, sign Mario Williams, circumstances prevent it. It seemed to me by the team’s actions and looking at 2013 salaries and roster the Jets would need all their picks and forgo a luxury which Tebow is, you could have gotten by without him.

The Jets decided it was worth the resources to get Tebow but they have lost some flexibility in the draft and some cap space by getting him. The #2 move trading picks I felt was just not an option this year but we’ll see if Tebow was worth it.

[JiF]

Basically the choices were:1) hold on to their draft picks, which the Jets have not done in the recent past, or 2) trade some for a player which they did again.

If you look at their actions, being cheap, you would think they would value the draft more this year and not trade their picks. You could have gotten Ryans from Houston for a 4^th he would be a great addition but the salary is too high. Maybe you could have gotten marshall, even though I doubt the Phins would trade to the Jets, but hypothetical for two 3’s but can’t afford his $9 million salary. Circumstances prevent moves even ones which help the team.

The Jets had trade picks for players for years as you know and now lots of those players are gone. It just seemed like the situation prevented trading picks this year looking at 2013 but the Jets choose to trade some late round picks again.

You can argue about how much value a late round pick has #108 could be a starter or bust but the Jets have had 23 picks over the last 5 years while the league average is 40. It just seemed like while you’d like to do something, sign Mario Williams, circumstances prevent it. It seemed to me by the team’s actions and looking at 2013 salaries and roster the Jets would need all their picks and forgo a luxury which Tebow is, you could have gotten by without him.

The Jets decided it was worth the resources to get Tebow but they have lost some flexibility in the draft and some cap space by getting him. The #2 move trading picks I felt was just not an option this year but we’ll see if Tebow was worth it.

So what you're saying is quantity over quality?

I dunno. How many of that 40 average even make the team?

And I dont view losing a 4th round pick when you have like 10 total is that big of a deal. Do they lose some flexibility, of course, but very minimal.

Edited by JiF, 09 April 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[denden29]

So what you're saying is quantity over quality?

I dunno. How many of that 40 average even make the team?

And I dont view losing a 4th round pick when you have like 10 total is that big of a deal. Do they lose some flexibility, of course, but very minimal.

Not really quantity over quality. There has been lots of discussion about the Pats drafting strategy which I don’t like. You should never, always do something or never so something. A GM should use everything at his disposal that means trading picks, trading for picks, signing FA, trading up in the draft and trading back.

The Pats give up impact players and try and get quantity. The Jets have traded up and try and get quality. They Jets have also traded picks away for players how are now gone, they have trade picks for player who became FA and had to give them big contracts to stay (Holmes, Cro) and they have use FA.

This is the way they build the team hard and fast. I think the Pats will try and build in more of a ‘win now approach’ since they seem to make the playoffs every year but not win the big one.

The Pats have salary room and roster flexibility. The Jets don’t, simple put the bill came it. All Jets fans want and upgrade at RT, wanted a push rusher and a Safety. Well they signed risky Landry but where are the other signings and they are still light a safety.

They didn’t sign them because they can’t. That is my point drafted players when they work out are cheaper. The Jets lack many underpaid overachievers, they have too many overpaid under achieves. Look at Jeremy Kerley he cost about $500k and will probably start at slot receiver. Having him frees up resources to get other players but the Jets have used the charge card over the past few years and the bill is in.

It would take two pages to explain how bad a shape the jets are in 2013 salary wise but if you had the #108 pick for example you could trade it and #77 for a 2^nd round pick now you still have ten picks but you have 2 # 2’s. You could have drafted a guy like Fletcher Cox –DE/DT at #16 less of a need but he could replace DeVito dumping his $3 million salary and he becomes a FA in 2013 anyway. Now you cut the pay role since Cox will cost $1.5 million and replaced an older player with a younger more talented play IMO. You can prioritize the rest of the draft knowing you can pick up a position at #108 that you now pushed by getting Cox. Another example is the Jets could trade back in a round pick up some later round picks then move up in the draft still getting 10 picks but maybe like a #1, #2, 2-#3’s, 2- #4’s, ect. Now you have 4 late round comp picks and you try and pick in rounds 2,3,4 quantity and quality.

Lets face it the Jets have roster issues they lack depth and are getting older. They have lots of high guaranteed contracts they need to bring in cheaper younger players. There is an opportunity cost to every move. Holmes and Cro were traded for 2010 5^th and 2011 2^nd. Now they are better players then those picks would likely be but they cost $20 million in 2012 and 2013. Those picks would not have cost you that type of money. So the question is are you better off with Cro and Holmes or the draft picks and the extra $18 million you’d have?

I just can’t stress the how bad the roster and financial position the team is in like I said in my previous post look at the FA signings and you’ll understand. Maybe this year was the one to bite the bullet and just make boring football moves. Only time will tell if it was worth trading for Tebow.

Edited by denden29, 09 April 2012 - 10:12 PM.