35 replies to this topic

[Matt39]

you mean the NERDS


i hate people breaking things down with "THIS GUYS MEGA WAR + OPS SQUARED IS 22 POINTS HIGHER THAN THIS GUY" junk

OPS isnt sabermetrics

[GimmeShelter]

Sabermetrics is pretty simple though...its really nothing crazy.

RBI's are a team stat. So are runs scored. They shouldnt be valued as heavy as slugging,OBP or OPS. I think that's fairly obvious. Batting average awards singles as much as it does a home run. Clearly a home run is more valuable than a single.

If you dont think base running and defense are important then sure, give it to Cabrera. Trout is that much better than Cabrera though in those categories...the MVP really shouldnt be close...considering how close they are hitting wise.

Trouts OPS- .948
Cabrera OPS - .993

All true but RBI's while a team stat also require the individual to come up with that hit/sac fly etc to drive in that run. The same Sabermetrics guys who dismiss RBI's when it aides their argument also complain when player XYZ on their own team fails to drive in a big run.

As for OPS which Miggy leads as you state, I also take into account Miggy is better with RISP, Late Inning Pressure AB's and Late inning Pressure AB's with RISP.

Again Trout is a star and as a young player is somewhat similiar to Mantle's early years. Miggy is just better this season and has been more clutch this year.

[Blackout]

OPS isnt sabermetrics

it was sarcasm....

[PFSIKH]

The Angels were languishing early in the season without Trout. He helped turn them around to even be in contention.

And it probably helped that Pujols started to hit as well.

What about the last two months when Trout has went from a high .300 hitter to a .284 in August to a .255 in September? It is only the playoff push and he has struggled.

Trout has had a phenomenal year, but he is not worthy of MVP when you can make a better argument for Weaver being the MVP.

[Matt39]

And it probably helped that Pujols started to hit as well.

What about the last two months when Trout has went from a high .300 hitter to a .284 in August to a .255 in September? It is only the playoff push and he has struggled.

Trout has had a phenomenal year, but he is not worthy of MVP when you can make a better argument for Weaver being the MVP.

Lets not go from the ridiculous to the sublime here.

[PFSIKH]

Lets not go from the ridiculous to the sublime here.

While his season is not even close to what Verlander did last year when he won, if he is average this year, the Angels are watching the playoff race just like the Sox.

[GimmeShelter]

While his season is not even close to what Verlander did last year when he won, if he is average this year, the Angels are watching the playoff race just like the Sox.

Which is why WAR is so stupid. I think I read that Verlander has a better WAR than Miggy this year.
You are correct on Trout...great, great season but watch Angels games and all you hear/see is Hunter and Pujols coming up with the clutch hits during Sept.

[WWWWombat]

The statistics clearly show that Trout is more valuable. I won't quote any numbers right now given that I am on my phone and some of you seem allergic to them anyways. Instead, I will summarize what they say.

Cabrera was the best hitter in the AL this year, but Trout was still one of the best. Trout was the best baserunner and the best defensive centerfielder in the AL. Meanwhile, Cabrera was not a very good baserunner or fielder.

Trout had a better season and was the most valuable player in the AL this year.

[nj meadowlands]

"WAR" hahah

[PFSIKH]

The statistics clearly show that Trout is more valuable. I won't quote any numbers right now given that I am on my phone and some of you seem allergic to them anyways. Instead, I will summarize what they say.

Cabrera was the best hitter in the AL this year, but Trout was still one of the best. Trout was the best baserunner and the best defensive centerfielder in the AL. Meanwhile, Cabrera was not a very good baserunner or fielder.

Trout had a better season and was the most valuable player in the AL this year.

I am surprised it has not been discussed.

He did not have the highest fielding percentage, range factor or the obscure DWAR. He was good, but he is not the be all end all of CF fielders.

As I said previously, Trout had a great season and as much as people knocked Cabrera for his D, he finished middle of the pack, like Trout, relative to his position. Seeing Cabrera has not been a fulltime 3B since 2007, he did pretty good.

Plus, Cabrera was more clutch when it mattered most.

[SenorGato]

"WAR" hahah

Tss what is it good for, right?

[Blackout]

Tss what is it good for, right?

absolutely nothing, if you ask me!

[WWWWombat]

I am surprised it has not been discussed.

He did not have the highest fielding percentage, range factor or the obscure DWAR. He was good, but he is not the be all end all of CF fielders.

As I said previously, Trout had a great season and as much as people knocked Cabrera for his D, he finished middle of the pack, like Trout, relative to his position. Seeing Cabrera has not been a fulltime 3B since 2007, he did pretty good.

Plus, Cabrera was more clutch when it mattered most.

Trout was 5th among AL outfielders in UZR. None of the 4 players who placed ahead of him played a majority of their time in center. Trout was excellent on defense this year. Cabrera was mediocre at best. And considering that the discussion is about how valuable a player is, I don't think the fact that Cabrera doesn't usually play 3B is very relevant. If he can't play good defense at a position where they need him, then he isn't as valuable.

Also, the clutch argument fails too as Trout had higher WPA and a better Clutch rating than Cabrera. Cabrera's Clutch rating was actually pretty bad.

[PFSIKH]

Trout was 5th among AL outfielders in UZR. None of the 4 players who placed ahead of him played a majority of their time in center. Trout was excellent on defense this year. Cabrera was mediocre at best. And considering that the discussion is about how valuable a player is, I don't think the fact that Cabrera doesn't usually play 3B is very relevant. If he can't play good defense at a position where they need him, then he isn't as valuable.

Also, the clutch argument fails too as Trout had higher WPA and a better Clutch rating than Cabrera. Cabrera's Clutch rating was actually pretty bad.

Please explain WPA, WAR and UZR. The nerds have no clear definition.

Have you tried changing positions? Look at A-Gon for the Sox. When they traded Youk and finally took A-GOn out of RF and kept him at 1B, his average got better. And that was RF where you go to hide defensive liabilities. Cabrera was asked to change and he did a good job. Not great, but it is not like he was an abject failure.

Here is what I know, when trailing, Cabrera hit better with RISP and 2 out (.420 vs .286). Simple RISP? Cabrera .356 to .324. Runners On? Cabrera .340 to .306.

All the pro-Trout make it out to be the Angels were not a good team and he led them to cusp of the playoffs. The Angels were supposed to contend. They were supposed to give the Rangers a run for the division title. They started slow and along comes Trout the magical elixir and they started winning it must be him. It also helped the Pujols started hitting. The Angels started playing better.

[Jetsfan80]

The only just result that could have come from this was Trout and Cabrera splitting the award. It wouldn't have been the first time, either (Willie Stargell & Keith Hernandez - 1979).

[WWWWombat]

Please explain WPA, WAR and UZR. The nerds have no clear definition.

Have you tried changing positions? Look at A-Gon for the Sox. When they traded Youk and finally took A-GOn out of RF and kept him at 1B, his average got better. And that was RF where you go to hide defensive liabilities. Cabrera was asked to change and he did a good job. Not great, but it is not like he was an abject failure.

Here is what I know, when trailing, Cabrera hit better with RISP and 2 out (.420 vs .286). Simple RISP? Cabrera .356 to .324. Runners On? Cabrera .340 to .306.

All the pro-Trout make it out to be the Angels were not a good team and he led them to cusp of the playoffs. The Angels were supposed to contend. They were supposed to give the Rangers a run for the division title. They started slow and along comes Trout the magical elixir and they started winning it must be him. It also helped the Pujols started hitting. The Angels started playing better.

http://www.fangraphs...x.php/misc/wpa/
http://www.fangraphs...x.php/misc/war/
http://www.fangraphs...phs-uzr-primer/

WPA is the total win probability that a player adds to his team as measured by the likelihood of winning before and after plays he makes.

WAR is a catch-all metric that tries to evaluate all areas of a player's game and weight them accordingly to come up with a number for how many wins a player contributed to his team over a replacement level player (scrub).

UZR uses batted ball charts to see how fielders compare to other fielders fielding similar balls.

Edited by WWWWombat, 03 December 2012 - 11:47 PM.