Sanchez sucks.

[Matt39]

. I also think Tannenbaum is trying to build a long term championship team, not just tryinto save his job for a year.

Then Coples was probably the better pick. If Tanny thought he had to put all of his eggs into this year a guy like Martin, who's going to produce from day 1, especially since its a position of need for the Jets...would have been the better short term fix.

We dont know what Tanny's leash is right now. But if its this year, then Martin probably would have been a better bet to save his job.

[Damaged89]

98 pages in and we're back on WEAPONS. This is entering Pennington territory.

[Matt39]

98 pages in and we're back on WEAPONS. This is entering Pennington territory.

Sure. Whether or not you think Sanchez would be any better with better skill positions is a legit argument. But having one healthy WR on the roster that can beat press coverage is a problem.

[Damaged89]

Sure. Whether or not you think Sanchez would be any better with better skill positions is a legit argument. But having one healthy WR on the roster that can beat press coverage is a problem.

Receivers are definitely not fantastic. When they do get open though, it's usually a 50/50 chance that he'll either not see them or completely miss them. Better receivers would help, but he'd still be leaving plays on the field.

[Bleedin Green]

If you cant comprehend the point I was trying to make then there is no reason to continue this conversation. You fail miserably in your arguements so you claim something that is totaly false then argue the point calling me an ass. If your going to call someone an ass then first understand exactly what you are reading before doing so. Comparing a concept and a player might be the same in your mind, so maybe you should revisit.

It's actually rather simple to follow. You claimed the Jets weren't investing enough in talent around Sanchez. You were proven wrong by using your very own criteria for what qualifies as a legitimate investment. You used Vernon Gholston (who has absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding this conversation) as an example of a highly-picked player who sucked, as if that somehow proved that draft position means absolutely nothing, despite the fact it was the very thing you held in such high regard just moments earlier. It doesn't matter what it is you claim you were trying to compare, there is absolutely no relation that exists there and thus, no merit to your point.

Here's an idea, instead of trying to act like a tough guy about the arguments of others, why don't you come back to us when you have something other than excuses to support your position. You have been proven wrong time again and have literally not given a single shred of hard evidence that supports your claims. Rather, you blame everyone else in the world for why it doesn't count that there is mountains of evidence that disproves everything you say. The fact that the more wrong you are proven, the more you throw out these absurd claims (contradicting yourself in the process) and then start proclaiming the arguments you have no defense for don't count, for no other reason than because you say so, only further proves that you've got absolutely nothing. This has been going on for years now, you were proven absolutely wrong the last time we did all of this and so far, you've yet to come close to showing your position has any merit. The next time you come up with a point that is something more than an excuse will be the first time.

[Smashmouth]

You want to talk about logic? This is perhaps the biggest failure in logic I have ever seen. Now a player only counts based on what a team gave up for him? Well, that Tom Brady must really suck, the Pats only used a 6th rounder on him. Even if you want to go by this completely absurd and indefensible logic of yours, you still up being wrong considering the Jets gave up two players and two draft picks for Edwards, and then later found themselves in a bidding war for LT's services.

The thing I find so comical is the major issue you guys are trying to take with this, considering this was in direct response to posts from you guys, as I only mentioned their draft position because of all of the whining about how the Jets allegedly didn't try to get Sanchez any weapons, which you all based solely on the fact that they didn't acquire highly-drafted skill position players. So which is it, does where a player drafted mean everything or does it mean absolutely nothing? Oh wait, I know, it means everything any time it works as an excuse for you, and then doesn't count the second it proves you wrong. I love that the criteria for what qualifies as the Jets trying to find weapons for Sanchez changes every time the last set of criteria that was used is proven to have no merit.

The bottom line is it doesn't matter if they were UDFAs or the #1 overall pick, the Jets have surrounded Sanchez with PROVEN talents throughout his 4 years of failures here. You want to try to make excuses to convince yourself why it's not his fault that he sucked with them? Fine, that's for you to do, but the point still stands that this concept that the Jets didn't try to surround him with offensive talent is completely wrong, and there's absolutely no basis to defend it whatsoever.

Define PROVEN please. 1 good year in 4 when talking about both receivers does NOT DEFINE PROVEN it defines INCONSISTENCY and INCONSISTENCY Does not equal good or great. Any WR can go out and put up a big year then fall off the map it happens more often than not in this league. 3 years later you can still be clinging to that one good year like so many Jets fans do but your pissing in the wind. Both receivers came here with their faults and neither was a good choice for a young QB Im pretty sure there were other WR's available that year that would have made a diffference but the Jets went into the season without making a move then had to scramble to sign Braylon in week 4. The Jets handling of Mark Sanchez is laughable at best and you can keep arguing that fact like a bonehead or you can look at other young QB's and see how the Model to success really works as played out by organizations that have a god damn clue. If you think any QB is going to come in here and turn Chaz, Turner, J.Hill, into pro bowlers your nuts. Kerley is our best WR and S. Hill is a future prospect but thats where it hits the brick wall. Hill and Kerley should have been done in year one not year 3 and 4.

[HessStation]

Receivers are definitely not fantastic. When they do get open though, it's usually a 50/50 chance that he'll either not see them or completely miss them. Better receivers would help, but he'd still be leaving plays on the field.

C'mon, WR's, as a whole, primarily get open via scheme.

[Matt39]

Receivers are definitely not fantastic. When they do get open though, it's usually a 50/50 chance that he'll either not see them or completely miss them. Better receivers would help, but he'd still be leaving plays on the field.

Oh yeah I agree. Against the soft secondaries we've seen there's no exuses for Sanchez being under a 60% passer. But against the Steelers and such....Hill and Schillens are useless. They cant get off the line.

[Matt39]

C'mon, WR's, as a whole, primarily get open via scheme.

When you're bumping them at the line, there isnt a scheme that's going to help Schillens or Hill. Maybe in time with Hill, but Schillens is garbage.

[Smashmouth]

It's actually rather simple to follow. You claimed the Jets weren't investing enough in talent around Sanchez. You were proven wrong by using your very own criteria for what qualifies as a legitimate investment. You used Vernon Gholston (who has absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding this conversation) as an example of a highly-picked player who sucked, as if that somehow proved that draft position means absolutely nothing, despite the fact it was the very thing you held in such high regard just moments earlier. It doesn't matter what it is you claim you were trying to compare, there is absolutely no relation that exists there and thus, no merit to your point.

Here's an idea, instead of trying to act like a tough guy about the arguments of others, why don't you come back to us when you have something other than excuses to support your position. You have been proven wrong time again and have literally not given a single shred of hard evidence that supports your claims. Rather, you blame everyone else in the world for why it doesn't count that there is mountains of evidence that disproves everything you say. The fact that the more wrong you are proven, the more you throw out these absurd claims (contradicting yourself in the process) and then start proclaiming the arguments you have no defense for don't count, for no other reason than because you say so, only further proves that you've got absolutely nothing. This has been going on for years now, you were proven absolutely wrong the last time we did all of this and so far, you've yet to come close to showing your position has any merit. The next time you come up with a point that is something more than an excuse will be the first time.

To us ?

heh BG you still dont get it bro. You brought up this ridiculous areguement about the slot these players were drafted and when players have 4 + years of work in the NFL that is just about the stupidest thing you can possibly do. Why ? because you judge on the body of work in the NFL, not college, or what some team who drafted said player had them rated. I used the Gholston reference to show you just how bad your example was but you just dont seem to get that. I cant help you beyond that point bud.

Im not trying to be a tough guy Im just trying to make you realize you simply misunderstood my post and you just keep draging it on.

[Bleedin Green]

You are the ultimate spin master.

You pick an argument, and spin, and spin, and spin to suit your point.

You were the one who started arguing about the draft position, NOT ME! I was proving how idiotic your point was.

I never said they did not try, I said they did a piss poor job of it, and did it as a second or third priority rather than as a first priority.

But you keep spinning, because that is what you do best.

I absolutely did not bring up draft position. Whether or not it was you is irrelevant, the point is that the Sanchez apologists were the ones who brought up the whole draft position argument as a means to try to prove that the Jets have made no effort to try to add weapons on offense. I was simply responding directly to that and showing why that position had no merit. If you had such a problem with that, then perhaps you should bring it up with those who took that absurd position to begin with, and not the response I made to that position which was designed specifically to point out the complete fallacy that the position was. And yet you want to talk about me spinning? Oh, sweet irony.

As far as beyond that, I was simply responding to the fact that the Sanchez apologists moved on to talk about how that didn't count anymore because they realized it didn't work as an excuse anymore, and so they gave new criteria for what qualified. I then directly responded to that, once again pointing out how the new point still had no merit. So really, every point I've made on this particular topic has been in direct response to the baseless claims by those endlessly trying to excuse Sanchez.

Maybe if you guys ever came up with one position that you could actually support with some sort of hard evidence, you probably wouldn't need to keep changing your argument and I wouldn't have to keep pointing out why your constantly new positions had no merit to them. I really have no need to spin, the facts support my position. Yours? Not so much.

[JustInFudge]

I havent read these essays you guys are posting but does it have something to do with weapons? Players who make plays arent play makers? Something about root trees? RT? RB? Development?

Just a hunch.

[HessStation]

When you're bumping them at the line, there isnt a scheme that's going to help Schillens or Hill. Maybe in time with Hill, but Schillens is garbage.

i get that. I'll be honest I haven't kept too much of a keen eye on coverage but I can't say I've seen too much bump and run vs the jets. I'm sure at times but, just being rhetorical here, there's obviously a counter to every scheme, it's just a chess match. If the corner is rolled theres still ibvious holes. There is a weight involved to having an elite WR, it definitely helps, it's just hard to reAlly know if its the QB or WR. A la who made who Montana or Rice... Or was it just Walsh type debate.

[Smashmouth]

Yeah, those damn Jets. All they did was draft a first round TE, trade for a #3 overall pick at WR, trade for a #25 overall pick at WR, sign a #8 overall pick in FA, draft a pretty damn talented slot WR, and bring in a future HOF at RB who is one of the best pass-catchers to ever play the position. NO WEAPONS!!!!

I absolutely did not bring up draft position.

wtf is this sh*t

[Matt39]

i get that. I'll be honest I haven't kept too much of a keen eye on coverage but I can't say I've seen to much bump and run vs the jets. I'm sure at times but, just being rhetorical here, there's obviously a counter to every scheme, it's just a chess match. There is a weight involved to having an elite WR, it definitely helps, it's just hard to reAlly know if its the QB or WR. A la who made who Montana or Rice... Or was it just Walsh type debate.

The Pats secondary is brutal, so they had to play Hill deep. The Niners, Steelers, those types of teams....we just wont be able to throw the ball with much success. I mean look who we had to start against SF. Luckily our schedule softens up a bit.

But I was able to look at some of the 22 for the first time...and Hill and Schillens both really struggle to get off of physical corners.

[Damaged89]

When you're bumping them at the line, there isnt a scheme that's going to help Schillens or Hill. Maybe in time with Hill, but Schillens is garbage.

Tough to say watching on tv. I've been trying to pay attention to the receivers getting off the line when they're still on camera. There's hope for Hill at least. I'm pretty high on Kerley. It's hard to say, but I think he'd put up big numbers with competent qb play.

[Matt39]

Tough to say watching on tv. I've been trying to pay attention to the receivers getting off the line when they're still on camera. There's hope for Hill at least. I'm pretty high on Kerley. It's hard to say, but I think he'd put up big numbers with competent qb play.

Kerley is putting up pretty big numbers. He's like top 8 in YPC I believe.

[Jetsouth]

98 pages in and we're back on WEAPONS. This is entering Pennington territory.

Coming up on 2 grand, couple hundred a day now... must suck a lot.

[Damaged89]

Kerley is putting up pretty big numbers. He's like top 8 in YPC I believe.

And imagine if he got hit in stride occasionally. Dude is great after the catch.

[Bleedin Green]

To us ?

heh BG you still dont get it bro. You brought up this ridiculous areguement about the slot these players were drafted

That's a blatant lie. My comment was in direct response to the absurd claim that the Jets made no attempt to surround Sanchez with weapons, with the main evidence used to support that being draft position.

and when players have 4 + years of work in the NFL that is just about the stupidest thing you can possibly do. Why ? because you judge on the body of work in the NFL, not college, or what some team who drafted said player had them rated.

Couldn't agree more. You do realize that proves your "no weapon" position wrong though, right?

I used the Gholston reference to show you just how bad your example was but you just dont seem to get that. I cant help you beyond that point bud.

Gholston has nothing to do with anything. Again, I'm not the one who started the topic of draft picks. If you ask me, a guy like Kerley is far better evidence of why getting hung up on draft position is absurd, because the kid is a legit player despite being a 5th rounder.

Im not trying to be a tough guy Im just trying to make you realize you simply misunderstood my post and you just keep draging it on.

The point is, I could honestly give less of a crap where any of these players were picked, so I don't know what you think you're proving. The only reason I mentioned it was simply because it had already been brought up and if that's the criteria someone wants to use, the Jets met it. Even still, if you want to talk about production that's great, because I don't care if they were all undrafted, there was a whole lot of production the Jets brought in between the likes of Edwards, Holmes and LT.

[HessStation]

Kerley is putting up pretty big numbers. He's like top 8 in YPC I believe.

yeah he only has 25 with 2 Tds but I think he cracking the top 20 in yards...

[Smashmouth]

The Pats secondary is brutal, so they had to play Hill deep. The Niners, Steelers, those types of teams....we just wont be able to throw the ball with much success. I mean look who we had to start against SF. Luckily our schedule softens up a bit.

But I was able to look at some of the 22 for the first time...and Hill and Schillens both really struggle to get off of physical corners.

all sanchez fault .

[HessStation]

all sanchez fault .

you watch and listen to ESPN and NFL network, who have film studies on Sanchez and they all say the same thing, that he's still missing open receivers.

[Bleedin Green]

wtf is this sh*t

Are you really going to make me go back and dig up whatever posts it was where you guys started your whole thing about how Hill being the Jets highest draft pick at a skill position since Sanchez somehow proved that the Jets made no effort in acquiring any weapons for Sanchez? Do you really deny this happened?

[Smashmouth]

Yeah, those damn Jets. All they did was draft a first round TE, trade for a #3 overall pick at WR, trade for a #25 overall pick at WR, sign a #8 overall pick in FA, draft a pretty damn talented slot WR, and bring in a future HOF at RB who is one of the best pass-catchers to ever play the position. NO WEAPONS!!!!

That's a blatant lie. My comment was in direct response to the absurd claim that the Jets made no attempt to surround Sanchez with weapons, with the main evidence used to support that being draft position.

Couldn't agree more. You do realize that proves your "no weapon" position wrong though, right?

Gholston has nothing to do with anything. Again, I'm not the one who started the topic of draft picks. If you ask me, a guy like Kerley is far better evidence of why getting hung up on draft position is absurd, because the kid is a legit player despite being a 5th rounder.

The point is, I could honestly give less of a crap where any of these players were picked, so I don't know what you think you're proving. The only reason I mentioned it was simply because it had already been brought up and if that's the criteria someone wants to use, the Jets met it. Even still, if you want to talk about production that's great, because I don't care if they were all undrafted, there was a whole lot of production the Jets brought in between the likes of Edwards, Holmes and LT.

Please explain so I can understand better. Stop flailing your better than this.

[Matt39]

you watch and listen to ESPN and NFL network, who have film studies on Sanchez and they all say the same thing, that he's still missing open receivers.

He does. That's a problem...and he really stinks at putting them in position for YAC.

[Damaged89]

He does. That's a problem...and he really stinks at putting them in position for YAC.

His first 5-6 throws last week were all high.. plus the Kerley tip to himself.

[Smashmouth]

Are you really going to make me go back and dig up whatever posts it was where you guys started your whole thing about how Hill being the Jets highest draft pick at a skill position since Sanchez somehow proved that the Jets made no effort in acquiring any weapons for Sanchez? Do you really deny this happened?

BG just STOP. The Jets finally drafting a skill player with a top pick was the issue. You had to drag players who had been in the league for years into the arguement and QUOTE their draft positions as a reason to believe what the jets actully did was bring in more talent than us idiot Sanchez supporters realized and your arguement stinks on Ice. Now your back pedaling and claiming some other crap. Im well aware of what I said but I really think you should take some time to actully read the posts. The only poster here claiming they didnt do something that they actully did do is you.

[Bleedin Green]

Please explain so I can understand better. Stop flailing your better than this.

There's nothing more I hate than going back to dig through old posts in the thread, but here is one of the things I'm talking about. And yes, I'm well aware it's not from you, but it was still being made as a point to correlate draft position with the Jets supposed lack of effort to acquire offensive skill positions, using that as a defense for Sanchez. I'll keep looking later if you really make me.

Other than drafting Sanchez, this past draft was the first time they drafted a skill position player for the offense above round 3 since Rex got here, in this day and age, unacceptable.

[Bleedin Green]

BG just STOP. The Jets finally drafting a skill player with a top pick was the issue. You had to drag players who had been in the league for years into the arguement and QUOTE their draft positions as a reason to believe what the jets actully did was bring in more talent than us idiot Sanchez supporters realized and your arguement stinks on Ice. Now your back pedaling and claiming some other crap. Im well aware of what I said but I really think you should take some time to actully read the posts. The only poster here claiming they didnt do something that they actully did do is you.

Wait... what? So you're now admitting that draft position of skills players was being used as an excuse for Sanchez? I'm really not understanding your point here now. Suddenly FA and trade acquisitions don't count? I don't care if a player was brought in via draft, FA, trade, cloning or resurrection. All that ultimately matters is who they players are that are here. You guys seemed, to me, to be hung up on draft position, which is the only reason I bothered to bring it up. Trust me, I don't really care. All I care about is the guys that have been here and clearly we are nowhere close to on the same page as to our thoughts about them.

[Bleedin Green]

I need to go pretend to do work for a while now. We can continue this later.

[Ignatius del Sol]

I can say with complete confidence that there's not a so-called "Sanchez hater" on this board who hasn't had more than a few unkind words to say about everything from every one of the LBs to Shonn Greene and everything in between, most of all Tanny for putting this mess together.

This is because everything we did was completely stupid for reasons that were entirely obvious even at the time. It really doesn't take a genius to foresee that a roster created through moves like drafting a quarterback with sixteen college starts, putting a first round grade on a big ten running back, giving a tackle-compiling linebacker a second contract, and giving away draft picks for the privilege of paying veteran talent free agent prices is headed for disaster. Even with Rex the issue of his getting passed over multiple times in Baltimore was just totally glossed over. The product the Jets are marketing is custom-built to extract maximum profits from an uncritical fan base.

[Matt39]

. The product the Jets are marketing is custom-built to extract maximum profits from an uncritical fan base.

which is what made the Tebow thing so strange. No one in NY cares about TIm Tebow.

[Smashmouth]

There's nothing more I hate than going back to dig through old posts in the thread, but here is one of the things I'm talking about. And yes, I'm well aware it's not from you, but it was still being made as a point to correlate draft position with the Jets supposed lack of effort to acquire offensive skill positions, using that as a defense for Sanchez. I'll keep looking later if you really make me.

Yes BG but thats refering to OUR DRAFT not where players that are already in the NFL draft positions were. I agree the Jets did try to bring in some players but you have to give a little when its stated that most of the players brought in were either failing with their current team or not wanted as in the case of Holmes no matter where they were drafted. Is this the best way to go about starting a young QB with 16 starts in college ? We drafted Keller and that was it. Sanchez was building nicely with Braylon and the second year in the playoffs both players were really playing at a high level. Jets decided to simply dump Braylon and bring in a prisoner and a 38 year old loud mouth and sign Holmes to 50 mil. I said this was a hot joke at the time it happened and got ripped to shreds on this very board, now Mason is out of the NFL as Is Plaxico so yeah what a fine god damn job we have done for Sanchez. Everyone knows Holmes is not a #1 WR hes a very good complement but hes not going to fight for balls nor run consistently good routes. Thats whay hes been inconsistent his entire career. We also have nothing much at RB who can catch the football or run it for that matter and somehow this is not looked at as a huge problem for the advancement of a QB.

Hes signed for next year. get some players in here just like we've done in the past for the defense and lets see how Sanchez does. if he fails out he goes. I just feel he needs to at least get that chance

[HessStation]

Yes BG but thats refering to OUR DRAFT not where players that are already in the NFL draft positions were. I agree the Jets did try to bring in some players but you have to give a little when its stated that most of the players brought in were either failing with their current team or not wanted as in the case of Holmes no matter where they were drafted. Is this the best way to go about starting a young QB with 16 starts in college ? We drafted Keller and that was it. Sanchez was building nicely with Braylon and the second year in the playoffs both players were really playing at a high level. Jets decided to simply dump Braylon and bring in a prisoner and a 38 year old loud mouth and sign Holmes to 50 mil. I said this was a hot joke at the time it happened and got ripped to shreds on this very board, now Mason is out of the NFL as Is Plaxico so yeah what a fine god damn job we have done for Sanchez. Everyone knows Holmes is not a #1 WR hes a very good complement but hes not going to fight for balls nor run consistently good routes. Thats whay hes been inconsistent his entire career. We also have nothing much at RB who can catch the football or run it for that matter and somehow this is not looked at as a huge problem for the advancement of a QB.

Hes signed for next year. get some players in here just like we've done in the past for the defense and lets see how Sanchez does. if he fails out he goes. I just feel he needs to at least get that chance

1st round center, LT and TE, 2nd round WR along with a 40+M dollar FA WR doesnt sound that bad. Maybe their player analysis on value was off on some but not like the offense is completely ignored.