Jump to content

  •  

Welcome to JetNation.com


Sign In  Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter

Create Account
Welcome to JetNation.com, your home for New York Jets talk. We are an independent site, which means we aren't affiliated with the NY Jets or SNY. The opinions here are never censored. We want you to join in on the conversation, but don't worry this is a simple and FREE process. Be apart of JetNation.com by signing in or creating an account. When you create an account, you can also opt to use your existing Facebook or Twitter login.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
Also be sure to check us out on Facebook and Twitter.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Does the Head Coach even matter?


  • Please log in to reply
131 replies to this topic

#1 LionelRichie

LionelRichie

    Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:30 PM

Is it the HC, the players, or just the QB that matters most?

If the Jets had another HC this year would they have won any more games with Sanchez as QB? Bellichick wasn't really special until Mo Lewis broke Bledsoe. Was Holmgren a genius or did he just have Brett Favre in his prime?

I think on the extremes coaches can make a 1 or 2 game difference - Parcells on the + side, guys like Herm, morningwieg, or Wandstedt on the minus side but for the most part it comes down to players and specifically the QB.

Would a different coach have made a difference in the 2012 Jets?
  • 0

#2 Lupz27

Lupz27

    2nd year player looking for a breakout season.

  • Members
  • 3,834 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:37 PM

Is it the HC, the players, or just the QB that matters most?

If the Jets had another HC this year would they have won any more games with Sanchez as QB? Bellichick wasn't really special until Mo Lewis broke Bledsoe. Was Holmgren a genius or did he just have Brett Favre in his prime?

I think on the extremes coaches can make a 1 or 2 game difference - Parcells on the + side, guys like Herm, morningwieg, or Wandstedt on the minus side but for the most part it comes down to players and specifically the QB.

Would a different coach have made a difference in the 2012 Jets?


I am in the corner of HC's matter significantly, when comparing the difference between a Kotite, and a Parcells, and more recently Singletary, and Harbaugh, both proved a different HC could take the same talent, and make them a winner instead of a joke.
  • 2

#3 LionelRichie

LionelRichie

    Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

I am in the corner of HC's matter significantly, when comparing the difference between a Kotite, and a Parcells, and more recently Singletary, and Harbaugh, both proved a different HC could take the same talent, and make them a winner instead of a joke.


The Jets have maybe 2 or 3 players at MOST that could start on the 49ers.

Singletary may be a terrible HC but let's not pretend that Harbaugh is making chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. The 49ers arguable have the most talented top to bottom roster in the NFL.
  • 0

#4 gEYno

gEYno

    2013-2014 & 2014-2015 JN Captain & VIP Member

  • Members
  • 17,830 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

HC matters. But not nearly as much as people here would like to make them out to.
  • 0

reset_buttonjpgscaled500_zps740f8923.jpg


#5 bitonti

bitonti

    Draft Bathroom Attendant

  • Members
  • 15,139 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:48 PM

I am in the corner that most HCs don't matter. Coaches coach and players play. I don't believe that Belly coaching this exact Jets squad (with the same players, getting injured at the same time) equates more victories. It's all hype, that a great coach can make chicken salad out of you know what. Doesn't happen... not anymore. Franchise QB's are what it's all about. Coaches are secondary.
  • 0

My posts have to get worse, so they can get better.


#6 jetsjetsjetss

jetsjetsjetss

    3rd Year Veteran

  • Members
  • 2,666 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:48 PM

Is it the HC, the players, or just the QB that matters most?

If the Jets had another HC this year would they have won any more games with Sanchez as QB? Bellichick wasn't really special until Mo Lewis broke Bledsoe. Was Holmgren a genius or did he just have Brett Favre in his prime?

I think on the extremes coaches can make a 1 or 2 game difference - Parcells on the + side, guys like Herm, morningwieg, or Wandstedt on the minus side but for the most part it comes down to players and specifically the QB.

Would a different coach have made a difference in the 2012 Jets?


i believe its more the spark that a head coach brings then actually who coaches it. Its all the players though. If you have a good QB leader and a good defensive leader the coach is irrelevant except for the player buying in.
  • 0

#7 #27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

    Forza Rhinos!

  • Members
  • 27,845 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

Rudderless ship.
  • 0

by Angel crazy with over 3000 post some day 


#8 Scott Dierking

Scott Dierking

    Jerk

  • Members
  • 13,445 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:49 PM

Coaches set the tone and the style. Of course they matter.

Are you going to equate Parcells with Kotite?
  • 0
Originally Posted by Blackout™
LOL ignorance is bless.

#9 Lupz27

Lupz27

    2nd year player looking for a breakout season.

  • Members
  • 3,834 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:50 PM

The Jets have maybe 2 or 3 players at MOST that could start on the 49ers.

Singletary may be a terrible HC but let's not pretend that Harbaugh is making chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. The 49ers arguable have the most talented top to bottom roster in the NFL.


Yes they do, and outside of A Smith, they had the exact same talent level that Singletary coached to a 5-11 record, so what's that tell you? HC matters!
  • 0

#10 Bleedin Green

Bleedin Green

    SuperTwat

  • Members
  • 21,488 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:53 PM

Let's not be ridiculous people. Everyone knows that the only people involved with a football team that truly matter are the offensive skill position players. It's all about the RBs and WRs, baby!
  • 0
By day he's the (not so) mild-mannered Bleedin Green, but by night...

TL;DR

#11 LionelRichie

LionelRichie

    Veteran

  • Members
  • 4,914 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

Coaches set the tone and the style. Of course they matter.

Are you going to equate Parcells with Kotite?


If you look at my initial post I said guys like Parcells are the exception. Parcells won with Hostetler, Vinny, and Ray Lucas - enough said.

That being said, there are only a handful of Parcells or Kotite type coaches. The rest fall somewhere in the middle and depend on either a great QB or a great Defense. When a head coach gets a great QB AND a great defense they are pretty much unbeatable.
  • 0

#12 Scott Dierking

Scott Dierking

    Jerk

  • Members
  • 13,445 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:13 PM

If you look at my initial post I said guys like Parcells are the exception. Parcells won with Hostetler, Vinny, and Ray Lucas - enough said.

That being said, there are only a handful of Parcells or Kotite type coaches. The rest fall somewhere in the middle and depend on either a great QB or a great Defense. When a head coach gets a great QB AND a great defense they are pretty much unbeatable.


The fact is, there are rare "great" coaches in the league. But, there is also a separation between the rest of the dregs. You also need to pick your poison-Are you going to go with a defensive style coach, offensive style coach, "players" coach, disciplinarian, motivator, x's and o's specialist, etc, etc.

That is where the Jets keep failing-wrong style at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons.
  • 0
Originally Posted by Blackout™
LOL ignorance is bless.

#13 Matt39

Matt39

    master knows all except combination to safe

  • Members
  • 22,612 posts
  • LocationDel Boca Vista Phase III

Posted 29 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

We've had enough sh*tty ones to I think know that answer.

Sure if you have Peyton Manning he's basically the coach....but there's only one of those.
  • 0

#14 RutgersJetFan

RutgersJetFan

    Bring me Solo and the Wookie

  • Members
  • 17,331 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Coaches coach and players play. Until players need to know what to do and how to do it.
  • 0

(Chandler)'s a nice piece as long as he's the 7th most important player on your roster....I think they're going to be disappointed when they see he's just a pumped-up Drew Gooden.


#15 FloridaJetsFan

FloridaJetsFan

    Hail Caesar

  • Members
  • 2,514 posts
  • LocationNavarre, FL

Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

We should ask the Saints this question ...
  • 0

#16 #27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

    Forza Rhinos!

  • Members
  • 27,845 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

There may not be a huge difference in the skill of the coaches in the league, but timing plays an enormous part. You have to get the right guy at the right time. Even the wrong guy at the right time can win - say Gruden. One of the keys IMO is holding on the talented guys. A guy like Rex can go in either direction. He could be a lunatic that keeps on thinking that he can win with Sanchez and sticks with "his guys" through thick and thin - even when the suck. He also could be trying to keep the team together and there might not be any answers on this roster. Trying doesn't matter though, we need success.

I don't have a huge problem with him sticking with these guys through this season, but heads have to roll this offseason because too many people are underperforming and while Sanchez sucking may be the #1 culprit that doesn't let the rest off the hook.
  • 0

by Angel crazy with over 3000 post some day 


#17 bassmaster2

bassmaster2

    Practice Squad Player

  • Members
  • 290 posts
  • LocationLong Island

Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:11 PM

A good QB makes a good coach , a good coach with a bad QB is not going to make a diffence , look at Denver this year and last year 9-7 to this year , Jets need a good QB , the team has not had a in many years , it would be nice to have a top 10 QB
  • 0

#18 bitonti

bitonti

    Draft Bathroom Attendant

  • Members
  • 15,139 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

that being said there are such a thing as bad coaches like Ray Handley and Herman Edwards. The head coaches basically set the tone and that is important. THe gameday aspect of head coaching is significant as well. Coaches can cost wins.

Rex is competent, but not amazing. I'm ok with that. To answer the larger question do coaches matter, yes it does matter in that you need a good one like you need a good kicker etc. But it's not as important as the players, JMO. on the pro level most of the coaching is competent but only a few of the players are special.

Edited by bitonti, 29 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

  • 0

My posts have to get worse, so they can get better.


#19 SenorGato

SenorGato

    Schottenhomer

  • Members
  • 20,536 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

Nowhere neeeeeeaaaaar as important as the offensive coordinator.

Edited by SenorGato, 29 November 2012 - 10:32 PM.

  • 1

We sick an' tired of-a your ism-skism game. Dyin' 'n' goin' to heaven in-a Jesus' name, Lord. We know when we understand:

Almighty God is a living man. - Bob Marley "Get up Stand up"


#20 Bugg

Bugg

    Of counsel whack job

  • Members
  • 14,895 posts

Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

that being said there are such a thing as bad coaches like Ray Handley and Herman Edwards. The head coaches basically set the tone and that is important. THe gameday aspect of head coaching is significant as well. Coaches can cost wins.

Rex is competent, but not amazing. I'm ok with that. To answer the larger question do coaches matter, yes it does matter in that you need a good one like you need a good kicker etc. But it's not as important as the players, JMO. on the pro level most of the coaching is competent but only a few of the players are special.

Making ground and pound your offense is bad coaching in 2012. Also, the Jets have had a mess of defense-oriented head coaches in a row in a league where big picture offense in general and quality QB play especially wins. I really don't get is how anyone could be an NFL HC and not know how timeouts and challenges work. Or getting plays called and packages in and out quickly and competently. And you see it here and elsewhere every week.

In 2012 though QB is key. Don't know how you wiff on Sanchez nor then sincr at least last year how you don't do everything you can to get a competent replacement. If we had kept Stanton perhaps this would have been a very different season. And yet for 4 years the Jets have not had a plausible alternative to Sanchez, nor even a decent backup. The didn't kick the tires on Matt Flynn, they didn't push very hard for Manning, they didn't try to pry Brees out of NO, and they didn't look into drafting Kapernick or anyone else.At the most important spot on an a NFL team in 2012(and going back 3 seasons)the Jets have completely shart themselves in every way and walk around pretendingt there is no bad smell and no brown stain. In short the GM and his chief scout are collasally sh*tty at their jobs. And when Rex Ryan babbles again this Sunday about Pick 6 giving him the best chance to win he needs to be fired and hit repeatedly with a blunt object until he shuts the ___up.
  • 0
Objective-Glendale, Arizona

Super Bowl 49-February, 2015

#21 SayNoToDMC

SayNoToDMC

    In search of terminally ill online girlfriend

  • Members
  • 6,725 posts

Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:18 AM

Rex is competent


?????????????????????
  • 0

28ad228d-4df6-4b64-b890-b5246112bd82.jpg


#22 Bugg

Bugg

    Of counsel whack job

  • Members
  • 14,895 posts

Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:03 AM

Might not agree with all of this. But QB is very important. What ever bad taste Favre left here, the Jets were a little too quick to dismiss Peyton Manning (and Brees) as a possibility. Plain and simple Sanchez sucks. Pretending otherwise again tells us the Jets are run by fools. Instead they were busy extending Harris and Sanchez to insane contracts and, and drafting more DL guys who cannot get on the field and trading up in the 2nd round for a "project".Also doing the seminannual grovel to Revis. Great job, guys!

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1210632


If NY Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum had signed Peyton Manning, Gang Green could be enjoying its season

Imagine: The fans at MetLife Stadium are chanting nice things at the Jets as they walk triumphantly off the field, and there is no Mark Sanchez/Tim Tebow debate

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS



Posted Image
Art by New York Daily News



Mark Sanchez? Forget about it! In this alternate reality, Peyton Manning is taking charge.





Soft-focus your brain, if that is still possible in the age of high-definition television. Imagine for a moment that Peyton Manning is the Jet quarterback, having signed a five-year deal with Mike Tannenbaum back in March.
Now: The fans at MetLife Stadium are chanting nice things at the Jets as they walk triumphantly off the field, moving to 8-3 and a game ahead of the Patriots in the AFC East. Bart Scott is high-fiving a supporter on his way through the tunnel, laughing and sharing stories. Rex Ryan is guaranteeing a Super Bowl, just like in the good old days. The crowds are spelling out J-E-T-S, squarely behind Fireman Ed instead of forcing him out of the business.

Best of all, there is no Tim Tebow/Mark Sanchez debate. There isn’t even a Tebow or Sanchez to be found on the roster.

It all might have happened, if only Manning had embarked on a New York adventure, which was really the last chance for the Jets to rescue their season and possibly this entire regime. All the losing that followed is a predictable shortfall of offensive talent and unimaginative play-calling. There is nothing surprising about the Jets’ unraveling. They are merely living down to their preseason clips.

You may remember: The Jets gave it a shot, approached Manning. They’d freed up an extra $7 million by restructuring D’Brickashaw Ferguson’s contract. On Thursday, Ferguson was remembering at his locker that what he did then in that agreement wasn’t only supposed to be good for him, it was going to be good for the team.

But Peyton quickly told the Jet contacts to forget it, never led them on. Maybe that was because his brother was already in town or maybe it was because he didn’t like what he saw in this organization. Ryan isn’t exactly a perfect fit for an aggressive quarterback and the roster lacked breakout receivers. The locker room is the Big Apple Circus, minus the big-play acrobats. The Jets were rebuffed, and there was probably nothing Ryan, Tannenbaum or Woody Johnson could have done about it.

Still, they might have groveled, perhaps offered even more money. They should have done so in retrospect. They should have done anything and everything. Ryan has always cited Manning as the greatest quarterback of his time, better than Tom Brady. A little more in-person begging and an enormous signing bonus wouldn’t have hurt. Instead, the Jets gave up the hunt and finalized the deal with Sanchez, a contract that is now handcuffing the team to a young player who has stopped progressing.

The Manning fantasy is worth reviving, if only because reality is so painful these days around Florham Park and East Rutherford. On Thursday, we got Ryan and Scott both apologizing to cruel fans who deserve their own share of abuse.

With Peyton at quarterback, such mea culpas would no longer be part of the culture. It’s all too tempting to extrapolate Manning’s Jet season from his MVP performance with the Broncos.

Manning would ignore the disconnected agenda of Tony Sparano or any offensive coordinator, calling his own game from behind center. He would check down against all the pressure that has befuddled and sabotaged Sanchez, found the seams and the screens. Manning would give the Jets the leadership in the huddle and locker room that have been missing. He would turn Jeremy Kerley into a Pro Bowl receiver and allow Shonn Greene to become a more effective running back with limited use.

Remember: In 2011, with Kyle Orton and Tebow, Denver was 8-8, same record as the Jets, except the Broncos got lucky with the tiebreakers and made the playoffs. Denver that season was 25th in the league in points scored, 23rd in total offense, 31st in passing yards.

Now they are square in the Super Bowl conversation, a complete, swift transformation. In 2012 with Manning, the Broncos are third in points scored, fourth in total offense and sixth in passing yards.

Meanwhile, the Jets sit 28th in the league in yards per game, 28th in passing yards, 22nd in points per game. We get the same, dysfunctional story, week after week.
Close your eyes, you can see what might have been on Sunday: The Jets going for 9-3, and Rex apologizing to no one.
A sleepless fan base is allowed to dream.

Edited by Bugg, 30 November 2012 - 08:04 AM.

  • 0
Objective-Glendale, Arizona

Super Bowl 49-February, 2015

#23 Scott Dierking

Scott Dierking

    Jerk

  • Members
  • 13,445 posts

Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:11 AM

Admittedly, I was very wrong on Manning being broken merchandise, and we would have prospered with him. That said, he was never coming here.
  • 0
Originally Posted by Blackout™
LOL ignorance is bless.

#24 Integrity28

Integrity28

    Told you so.

  • Members
  • 34,324 posts
  • Locationwrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time

Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:47 AM

The best managers position their employees to not just succeed, but become great. Talent matters. Talented players, talented coaches. Coaching can impact talent on the team, preparation, planning, desire, discipline, culture and environment to name just a few things.


  • 2

"Idz a process."

 

Posted Image


#25 PatriotReign37

PatriotReign37

    500 warning points and counting.

  • Members
  • 9,975 posts
  • LocationThe road to Seacacus

Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:14 AM

Admittedly, I was very wrong on Manning being broken merchandise, and we would have prospered with him. That said, he was never coming here.


His arm is tired.

Maybe its just not playing in so long and the grind of the long season is taking its toll.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users