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Does the Head Coach even matter?


LionelRichie

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Compared to his peers in their primes...mediocre numbers.

Is Favre the best of all time?

No, they are very similar. Moon and Favre were the anomalies of the group. They went off early in their career. And Kelly and Montana were in significantly better situations. Not even comparable actually. And the only thing that is glaringly better was completion % which was very much because of the system.

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Never threw for over 27 TD passes in a season

Never led the league in any statistical category other than 1993

44th all time in passer rating

threw for 4,000 yards only once

Guy gets credited for being an all time great because of Reggie Miller type moments(another overrated player) and Terell Davis carrying him to two rings.

So.... Sanchez then?

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No, they are very similar. Moon and Favre were the anomalies of the group. They went off early in their career. And Kelly and Montana were in significantly better situations. Not even comparable actually. And the only thing that is glaringly better was completion % which was very much because of the system.

Elways numbers were mediocre at best early in his career. The explosion of the NFL on tv in the 80's and his made for TV moments absolutely catapulted Elway into something he wasnt. He was never a great passer. Those Denver defenes were very good. Mcklenberg was a beast.

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Yes. It is fairly common knowledge that you are wrong that Elway was overrated. LOL Good grief.

I like Matt, he picks some interesting battles though. Elway is almost unanimously consider a top 5 QB of all time.

2 rings, 5 SB's, SB MVP, NFL MVP, 9 pro bowls = overrated. lmfao

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Elways numbers were mediocre at best early in his career. The explosion of the NFL on tv in the 80's and his made for TV moments absolutely catapulted Elway into something he wasnt. He was never a great passer. Those Denver defenes were very good. Mcklenberg was a beast.

So are a lot of QB's. Was Warren Moon overrated?

When the current group of guys eventually retire....ELway will be out of the top 10

You're going to compare this era to his? lmfao - bro, seriously?

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I like Matt, he picks some interesting battles though. Elway is almost unanimously consider a top 5 QB of all time.

2 rings, 5 SB's, SB MVP, NFL MVP, 9 pro bowls = overrated. lmfao

Top 5 all time....hell there are about 6 guys in the league right now that are better than him.

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When the current group of guys eventually retire....ELway will be out of the top 10

While I agree with this, you have to consider that this current group of QBs play in a different time. That is not debatable. That is why you cannot solely make arguments with statistics.

Elway was his generations Rothlesberger. Great QB, great leader, tough son of a bitch, benefited from a great defense and running game during the years he was successful.

I do not think Ben is "greatest of all time" material, however I do think he is great. As I do Elway. Any QB that holds a franchise on his shoulders his whole career, does more winning than losing, gets a couple rings... is pretty ****ing great if you ask me.

As a guy who has had to cheer for people like Ray Lucas, Glenn Foley, Sanchez, etc... you should at least be able to appreciate that perspective, even if you don't agree with the adjective "great".

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While I agree with this, you have to consider that this current group of QBs play in a different time. That is not debatable. That is why you cannot solely make arguments with statistics.

Elway was his generations Rothlesberger. Great QB, great leader, tough son of a bitch, benefited from a great defense and running game during the years he was successful.

I do not think Ben is "greatest of all time" material, however I do think he is great. As I do Elway. Any QB that holds a franchise on his shoulders his whole career, does more winning than losing, gets a couple rings... is pretty ****ing great if you ask me.

As a guy who has had to cheer for people like Ray Lucas, Glenn Foley, Sanchez, etc... you should at least be able to appreciate that perspective, even if you don't agree with the adjective "great".

Of course I'd take Elway over the atrocities the Jets have trotted out there. Elway gets put on the pedestal of being an all time great. I never saw it. I grew up wathcing him, Marino, Montana, he was never in their class as a passer. And when you go back and look at the numbers, they sure as hell back that up. In his prime, he never had that fantastic individual season other than 93. And the two rings he won he was a game manager.

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We can easily compare Marino and Montana and Kelly to guys in this era.

We can? You knocked Elway for never throwing more than 27 TD's? Montana did it twice, 28 and 31...ohhhh. Oh yeah, he never threw for over 4,000 yards.

Jim Kelly? He only threw of 27 TD's once. And guess what, never threw for over 4,000 yards.

Both playing in a significantly better offense. Significantly!!!

Please bro, you're fight a losing battle here.

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We can? You knocked Elway for never throwing more than 27 TD's? Montana did it twice, 28 and 31...ohhhh. Oh yeah, he never threw for over 4,000 yards.

Jim Kelly? He only threw of 27 TD's once. And guess what, never threw for over 4,000 yards.

Both playing in a significantly better offense. Significantly!!!

Please bro, you're fight a losing battle here.

Jim Kelly isnt an all time great though either.

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We can easily compare Marino and Montana and Kelly to guys in this era.

No, you can't.

If you want to draw the comparison between eras... Marino and Montana would be the guys in THIS era throwing for 6,000 yards while everyone else goes for 5,000. Those two were in their own class then, and they would be now.

All stats now are bloated by rule changes - so comparing the eras is silly. Sanchez's numbers in this era should not be compared to Elways in his era either... It is more fair to hypothesize about how BAD Sanchez would have been back then, if he sucks this bad in the era designed for QB success, and consider how good Elway would be now with the rules the way they are?

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Wow just wow on Elway.

The guy was the Denver Broncos from 1984-1994. He had 50 4th qtr comebacks in his career, 5 trips to the Super Bowl and 2 wins.

Am I missing something here ?

Yes. Elway is the most overrated player in the history of the NFL.

lol

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Of course I'd take Elway over the atrocities the Jets have trotted out there. Elway gets put on the pedestal of being an all time great. I never saw it. I grew up wathcing him, Marino, Montana, he was never in their class as a passer. And when you go back and look at the numbers, they sure as hell back that up. In his prime, he never had that fantastic individual season other than 93. And the two rings he won he was a game manager.

He was way more than a game manager when they won those superbowls. That's just a downright stupid comment.

And here you are again comparing him to Montana and Marino. NOBODY is putting him in their class except you so that you can basically argue he's not in their class. Nobody said he's one of the 3 greatest of all time, just that he was a great QB in his era. Which is true.

You are forming an argument around your own misaligned perception of how others view the guy. I think any devoted or casual fan of the NFL knows Elway wasn't on par with Marino and Montana. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that he's "always put on that pedestal" but he's not.

Guy was great. NOT greatest of all time.

Sigh.

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Comp%

A) 56.9

B 57.9

Yards/Game

A) 219.9

B 210.7

TD/G

A) 1.28

B 1.17

Int/G

A) 0.96

B 0.86

TD/Int

A) 1.32

B 1.36

QB Rating

A) 79.9

B 80.4

QB A and QB B who are they?

Like I said, your stats are basically irrelevant. You are comparing two players from different generations... continue down this path, all you are doing is exposing the ceiling for your understanding of the game.

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He was way more than a game manager when they won those superbowls. That's just a downright stupid comment.

And here you are again comparing him to Montana and Marino. NOBODY is putting him in their class except you so that you can basically argue he's not in their class. Nobody said he's one of the 3 greatest of all time, just that he was a great QB in his era. Which is true.

You are forming an argument around your own misaligned perception of how others view the guy. I think any devoted or casual fan of the NFL knows Elway wasn't on par with Marino and Montana. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that he's "always put on that pedestal" but he's not.

Guy was great. NOT greatest of all time.

Sigh.

JIF just put him in that class though. Hess station said he's the best he's ever seen play. People have him top 5. That's nuts to me. Shawn too.

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Like I said, your stats are basically irrelevant. You are comparing two players from different generations... continue down this path, all you are doing is exposing the ceiling for your understanding of the game.

A is Elway B is Jeff George.

bbbbuuutttt

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He was way more than a game manager when they won those superbowls. That's just a downright stupid comment.

And here you are again comparing him to Montana and Marino. NOBODY is putting him in their class except you so that you can basically argue he's not in their class. Nobody said he's one of the 3 greatest of all time, just that he was a great QB in his era. Which is true.

You are forming an argument around your own misaligned perception of how others view the guy. I think any devoted or casual fan of the NFL knows Elway wasn't on par with Marino and Montana. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that he's "always put on that pedestal" but he's not.

Guy was great. NOT greatest of all time.

Sigh.

I'm putting him there. Top 5 greatest QB's of all time, well I should say of my life time. Hands down. There isnt a debate.

In my life time, the best I've ever seen are - Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, in that order.

I'm not including current players but Brady and Manning will eventually be there too.

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Maybe the first 10 seasons of his career when he was average?

Different era's between today and the 80's

I'm sorry but JIF is totally correct here. Elway was the Denver Broncos from 84 till when Davis arrived. Elway spent those ten years throwing to guys like Vance Johson, Mark Jackson, and Rickey Nattiel and had guys like Steve Sewell and Sammy Winder running the football. Their Defense was okay. It wasn't great. After 1986 guys like Tom Jackson and Louis Wright (a very underrated CB) and Steve Foley retired. The only guy that replaced those three that was any good was Steve Atwater.

I look at it like this. The 80's were really about three QB's. Montana, Elway, Marino. (Kelly is more a 90's guy to me). Montana had everything, Great weapons on offense, great defense and an OL that kept him upright and one of the greatest offenisve minds in the history of football in Bill Walsh. Marino had great WR's, a lousy defense and a good to great coach in Shula. Elway had mediocre weapons on offense, a decent defense and a good coach.

1) Montana

2) Elway

3) Marino.

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Individual QB stats can be about as misleading/irrelevant statistic as there is in all of professional sports. And the same stats can be used to argue for or against any particular case. When comparing eras they are less than pointless.

Carson Palmer is potentially on track to throw for more yards this season than Marino, Elway, or Montana ever did. Clearly Carson Palmer is > than Marino, Elway and Montana.

Going into last week Alex Smith was the #3 rated QB in the league. Clearly Alex Smith is the 3rd best QB in the league.

Elway was awesome. Not quite on par with Marino, but his name deserves to be right up there with Marino/Montana.

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I'm putting him there. Top 5 greatest QB's of all time, well I should say of my life time. Hands down. There isnt a debate.

In my life time, the best I've ever seen are - Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, Favre, in that order.

I'm not including current players but Brady and Manning will eventually be there too.

"In your life time" and "I ever saw" are qualifiers that change the context of the whole conversation.

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