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#26 sirlancemehlot

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

Coples had a couple of beast mode plays yesterday. Blew up a double team. Sack. Tackle for loss. Him and Mo Wilk will be beasts.

Wait. Wait. Horrible at drafting, cant evaluate talent, cant develop players. There, thats better.


So a first round draft pick is playing well in his second year and it disproves all of the above? thats reasonable.
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#27 bitonti

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

Hate to break it to you, but an NFL resume is wins and losses, and has nothing to do with whether or not one spent time in a room with Belichick or served as a ball boy for Weeb Ewbank.


ok so going by pure wins and losses, these guys are both above average. this board acts like the team is 2-11. they are 6-7 and probably gonna finish .500. not fire-able, especially in a year when the best player went down in week 3.

Edited by bitonti, 12 December 2012 - 04:37 PM.

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#28 whodeawhodat

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:46 PM

So what's exactly your point? Every single move Tannenbaum has ever made in his entire time as GM has to be a complete failure in order for him to be deserving of being fired? Occasional hits, which literally every single GM league-wide has, does not offset countless number of failures. The bottom line is he has handled the game's single most important position as bad or worse than any other GM in the league, and that alone is enough, as it truly is unforgivable and alone ensures the Jets have no hopes of any significant success in the foreseeable future, particularly if he's the one entrusted with fixing that position for the future, which he has shown no reason to believe he's capable of doing.

When you consider the abysmal failures at numerous other positions and a constant penchant for not addressing positions until after we've dealt with at least one full season of disastrous play there, it only compounds the issues. Tough to be too impressed with something like the Landry signing when that came on the heels of multiple seasons of the Jets sporting the league's worst safeties.


BG,
how are we winning games? How are we not the worst in the league? The way you speak it, we should be 0-13 right now...No GM, no HC, no OC, and no QB. What exactly do we have?
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#29 Bleedin Green

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:02 PM

BG,
how are we winning games? How are we not the worst in the league? The way you speak it, we should be 0-13 right now...No GM, no HC, no OC, and no QB. What exactly do we have?


Clearly you and bitonti have a very different level of expectations than many of the rest of us. I don't particularly find not being the worst in the league as an even remotely acceptable performance out of a GM, particularly when this team is visibly getting progressively worse as more time passes by. It is that fact, combined with the absolutely unacceptably pathetic disaster that is this team's QB position that alone gives the Jets every reason they could possibly need to decide Tanny is not the answer. This team peaked in 2011 and since then has gotten worse at every position with the possible exception of DL and safety, failing miserably in any and all attempts to address any other position on this team. That's all only compacted by the disaster of a cap situation they find themselves walking into and Tanny's penchant for pissing away draft picks with great regularity.
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#30 bitonti

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

Clearly you and bitonti have a very different level of expectations than many of the rest of us.


my expectations are to be entertained. the Jets are like gambling sometimes the losses feel more significant than the wins. Tom Brady in the division there are way easier jobs in this league.
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#31 #27TheDominator

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

So what's exactly your point? Every single move Tannenbaum has ever made in his entire time as GM has to be a complete failure in order for him to be deserving of being fired? Occasional hits, which literally every single GM league-wide has, does not offset countless number of failures. The bottom line is he has handled the game's single most important position as bad or worse than any other GM in the league, and that alone is enough, as it truly is unforgivable and alone ensures the Jets have no hopes of any significant success in the foreseeable future, particularly if he's the one entrusted with fixing that position for the future, which he has shown no reason to believe he's capable of doing.

When you consider the abysmal failures at numerous other positions and a constant penchant for not addressing positions until after we've dealt with at least one full season of disastrous play there, it only compounds the issues. Tough to be too impressed with something like the Landry signing when that came on the heels of multiple seasons of the Jets sporting the league's worst safeties.


You really care that much about the safeties? Those guys played well enough to be on a pretty solid defense. Way the hell beyond solid in 2009. I can understand the desire to can these guys, but it's the idea that keeping them around is crazy that bothers me.

The two biggest problems I hear about Tannenbaum are:

1. QB.
Sanchez looks like sh*t, but the idea that the team can't win with him is relatively recent. They had two deep playoff runs with the guy. That doesn't buy him much in my book, but I can't see killing a GM for the kid regressing. Even a modest improvement would probably have kept this team in pretty good stead. Yes, the extension is borderline unforgiveable and I don't blame people for kiling him or calling for his head over it.

2. Current and 2013 cap situation.
The cap thing is sort of odd. He had been called a cap guru, so now that we have cap trouble we'll see what happens. FWIW, I think it's overblown in both directions. The team has generally been able to jettison enough to get cap room to get what/who they want. Favre, Revis, Asomugha. There hasn't been anybody they've seemed to want where salary stood in the way. This offseason they will need a bit of an overhaul and don't have much space. I'll be interested to see if Tannenbaum can pull it off this year. The rest of these guys seem to want to watch Cowher give a crack at it.

Where have we had disastrous play? RB in 2006? LG in 2007. RT in 2011? Name a team during that span that didn't have disastrous play a that many positions. The Giants won the super bowl with more disastrous play at RT last year.

You want to fire them. Fair enough. There looks to be enough reason, though personally I believe we have to let the season play out first. I think they deserve another year, depending on how the season plays out.

Edited by #27TheDominator, 12 December 2012 - 05:29 PM.

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#32 Bleedin Green

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

You really care that much about the safeties? Those guys played well enough to be on a pretty solid defense. Way the hell beyond solid in 2009.


It's a single example, which we can gladly discuss others instead if you like. As far as how they fared in 2009 is concerned, it was also the first year the position wasn't a problem as they finally got someone to play across from Rhodes, and then they traded him away after the season and took 2 years to even bother to try to replace him. It's crap like that which is exactly what I'm talking about. We've seen this same exact kind of situation play out in recent years at positions such as RT, OLB, ILB, G, WR. They get progressively worse over time, ignoring the position until it becomes a major weakness on the team, at which point they might then try to address it.

I can understand the desire to can these guys, but it's the idea that keeping them around is crazy that bothers me.

The two biggest problems I hear about Tannenbaum are:

1. QB.
Sanchez looks like sh*t, but the idea that the team can't win with him is relatively recent. They had two deep playoff runs with the guy. That doesn't buy him much in my book, but I can't see killing a GM for the kid regressing. Even a modest improvement would probably have kept this team in pretty good stead. Yes, the extension is borderline unforgiveable and I don't blame people for kiling him or calling for his head over it.


The entire way the QB position was handed this past offseason was enough for him to be fired on the spot. Anyone with a half a brain knew things were not looking good for Sanchez after that disaster of a season last year, back when this mess started. Tanny's solution was to lock Sanchez up into quite arguably the most idiotic contract this team has ever handed out (and that's saying A LOT), signing a second rate nobody to be the backup so Sanchez wouldn't have to worry about any real competition, then turning around and trading away draft picks and paying millions of dollars for a different backup who was the only QB in the league who was a sh*ttier passer than Sanchez last year. It was so mind-blowingly idiotic, that there is absolutely no reason this dipsh*t should be given even the slightest shred of confidence to be involved in fixing that heaping pile of sh*t he created at QB.

2. Current and 2013 cap situation.
The cap thing is sort of odd. He had been called a cap guru, so now that we have cap trouble we'll see what happens. FWIW, I think it's overblown in both directions. The team has generally been able to jettison enough to get cap room to get what/who they want. Favre, Revis, Asomugha. There hasn't been anybody they've seemed to want where salary stood in the way. This offseason they will need a bit of an overhaul and don't have much space. I'll be interested to see if Tannenbaum can pull it off this year. The rest of these guys seem to want to watch Cowher give a crack at it.


As you said, this guy is a supposed cap expert and yet the Jets constantly find themselves in cap problems. After all, the reason the Jets have guys like Scott, Sanchez and Harris in these moronic contracts to begin with is that they were structured as band-aids to help with past year's cap messes. All he keeps doing is constantly mortgaging the future to save his ass today and while I'm sure he can pull enough space out of his ass to get under the cap, it doesn't mean how he does it is going to be good for this team.

Where have we had disastrous play? RB in 2006? LG in 2007. RT in 2011? Name a team during that span that didn't have disastrous play a that many positions. The Giants won the super bowl with more disastrous play at RT last year.


while some of these are obviously more important than others, I would say there are many areas you could say the Jets have seen extremely poor performances out of positions in Tanny's time here (and I think some would argue there are some missing from this list):

QB in 2007, 2009-2012 (and that's being nice about it)
WR in 2009, 2012
TE in 2006-2008
RB in 2006, 2011
FB in 2006-2007, 2011-2012
OL in 2011
S in 2006-2011
ILB in 2006, 2011-2012
OLB in 2006-2007, 2011-2012
CB in 2006
DL in 2006-2007

You want to fire them. Fair enough. There looks to be enough reason, though personally I believe we have to let the season play out first. I think they deserve another year, depending on how the season plays out.


I think the idea that we need to let the season play out is extremely flawed, because grabbing some wins against the dregs of the league doesn't do anything to change the mess Tanny has made of this team. While unfortunately I think they will, this team can't let themselves be blinded by a mediocre season filled with major issues looking a little better at the end of the year based solely on the way the schedule was laid out.

As far as firing "them" goes, at this point Tanny is the only one that I think needs to go with 100% certainty. A new GM needs to be given the power to make all other decisions regarding who stays and goes beyond that, from top to bottom, and I could accept any of those decisions either way.
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#33 bitonti

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

As far as firing "them" goes, at this point Tanny is the only one that I think needs to go with 100% certainty. A new GM needs to be given the power to make all other decisions regarding who stays and goes beyond that, from top to bottom, and I could accept any of those decisions either way.


so you'll give full trust to an unnamed, unknown GM candidate. the implication is that any1 is better? Didn't the sparano over schotty situation teach us nothing?
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#34 T0mShane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

so you'll give full trust to an unnamed, unknown GM candidate. the implication is that any1 is better? Didn't the sparano over schotty situation teach us nothing?



This was your Herm argument.
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#35 tkiss24

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

It's a Mo thread but how about Quinton's sack of Henne, he crushed him. I know every thread is a "fire tanny" thread but there's no arguing with the first round picks from the last 2 years... mon.

Those are Rex's guys, not Tanny's
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#36 Bleedin Green

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:00 PM

so you'll give full trust to an unnamed, unknown GM candidate. the implication is that any1 is better? Didn't the sparano over schotty situation teach us nothing?


It's taught us that you still have the single most completely flawed logic of anyone on this board. You were unquestionably wrong then and you're still wrong now. Individual opinions don't even factor into it, because your logic fails from its very basic concept.

Even forgetting the specifics of the people we are discussing, your entire argument is that someone who has proven they do a poor job (regardless if it is Tanny, Schitty or any other person in any other job in the world) should be retained indefinitely because there might be a chance that another option could possibly be as bad or worse at the job, while ignoring the fact that there is also a chance that a better option could be found. That is the definition of a loser's mentality and there is absolutely no defense for it. As long as you continue to push that type of argument, you're only going to help invalidate your own stance, as I can assure you that even people who aren't unhappy with the job done by Tanny and think he should be retained would never possibly agree with this ridiculous position of yours.
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#37 Bleedin Green

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:01 PM

This was your Herm argument.


This has been his logic for every single player, coach, and staff member ever associated with the Jets. It was his logic for Vernon ****ing Gholston for God's sake! It fails on literally every single level.
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#38 jetfan718

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:02 PM

Now all we need are 2 "stud" OLB's and a "ball-hawking" FS and we're set!
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#39 cr726

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:23 PM

Those are Rex's guys, not Tanny's


Conner was a Rex pick.
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#40 #27TheDominator

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:02 AM

It's a single example, which we can gladly discuss others instead if you like. As far as how they fared in 2009 is concerned, it was also the first year the position wasn't a problem as they finally got someone to play across from Rhodes, and then they traded him away after the season and took 2 years to even bother to try to replace him. It's crap like that which is exactly what I'm talking about. We've seen this same exact kind of situation play out in recent years at positions such as RT, OLB, ILB, G, WR. They get progressively worse over time, ignoring the position until it becomes a major weakness on the team, at which point they might then try to address it.



The entire way the QB position was handed this past offseason was enough for him to be fired on the spot. Anyone with a half a brain knew things were not looking good for Sanchez after that disaster of a season last year, back when this mess started. Tanny's solution was to lock Sanchez up into quite arguably the most idiotic contract this team has ever handed out (and that's saying A LOT), signing a second rate nobody to be the backup so Sanchez wouldn't have to worry about any real competition, then turning around and trading away draft picks and paying millions of dollars for a different backup who was the only QB in the league who was a sh*ttier passer than Sanchez last year. It was so mind-blowingly idiotic, that there is absolutely no reason this dipsh*t should be given even the slightest shred of confidence to be involved in fixing that heaping pile of sh*t he created at QB.



As you said, this guy is a supposed cap expert and yet the Jets constantly find themselves in cap problems. After all, the reason the Jets have guys like Scott, Sanchez and Harris in these moronic contracts to begin with is that they were structured as band-aids to help with past year's cap messes. All he keeps doing is constantly mortgaging the future to save his ass today and while I'm sure he can pull enough space out of his ass to get under the cap, it doesn't mean how he does it is going to be good for this team.



while some of these are obviously more important than others, I would say there are many areas you could say the Jets have seen extremely poor performances out of positions in Tanny's time here (and I think some would argue there are some missing from this list):

QB in 2007, 2009-2012 (and that's being nice about it)
WR in 2009, 2012
TE in 2006-2008
RB in 2006, 2011
FB in 2006-2007, 2011-2012
OL in 2011
S in 2006-2011
ILB in 2006, 2011-2012
OLB in 2006-2007, 2011-2012
CB in 2006
DL in 2006-2007



I think the idea that we need to let the season play out is extremely flawed, because grabbing some wins against the dregs of the league doesn't do anything to change the mess Tanny has made of this team. While unfortunately I think they will, this team can't let themselves be blinded by a mediocre season filled with major issues looking a little better at the end of the year based solely on the way the schedule was laid out.

As far as firing "them" goes, at this point Tanny is the only one that I think needs to go with 100% certainty. A new GM needs to be given the power to make all other decisions regarding who stays and goes beyond that, from top to bottom, and I could accept any of those decisions either way.


I can dispute almost every one of those points, position by position. Interested? Did he make good moves? Good draft picks? Have things covered? Certainly not in every case, but there were qualified risks that in most case were reasonable. Rather than type all that out, I will ask you a simple question: Do you think I am crazy because I want to give Tannenbaum another season?

I know next year will be difficult, but I want to see how it is handled. The one thing that we CAN'T let happen is giving him 2013 and letting him monkey with deals and eat up all the cap space going forward. Otherwise, I am interested to see the product on the field for 2014. I can agree that the GM doesn't necessarily require letting the season play out, but there is certainly an argument to let it play out for the coach.
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#41 RutgersJetFan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:06 AM

ok so going by pure wins and losses, these guys are both above average. this board acts like the team is 2-11. they are 6-7 and probably gonna finish .500. not fire-able, especially in a year when the best player went down in week 3.


7. Years.
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#42 bitonti

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

This was your Herm argument.



It's taught us that you still have the single most completely flawed logic of anyone on this board. You were unquestionably wrong then and you're still wrong now. Individual opinions don't even factor into it, because your logic fails from its very basic concept.

Even forgetting the specifics of the people we are discussing, your entire argument is that someone who has proven they do a poor job (regardless if it is Tanny, Schitty or any other person in any other job in the world) should be retained indefinitely because there might be a chance that another option could possibly be as bad or worse at the job, while ignoring the fact that there is also a chance that a better option could be found. That is the definition of a loser's mentality and there is absolutely no defense for it. As long as you continue to push that type of argument, you're only going to help invalidate your own stance, as I can assure you that even people who aren't unhappy with the job done by Tanny and think he should be retained would never possibly agree with this ridiculous position of yours.


first off I still am not convinved Tanny does a poor job. He traded up and drafted Revis. That's a once in a generation draft pick. Mo, Coples, Landry etc. it's not all as bad as you guys are making out.

Secondly it's not too much to ask for a list of names you think would 1) be an upgrade 2) actually take the job if offered. This idea that anyone would be better "addition by subtraction" was what drove the Schotty firing. And I don't think Sparano is any better. Do you>?

Edited by bitonti, 13 December 2012 - 09:28 AM.

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#43 #27TheDominator

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

first off I still am not convinved Tanny does a poor job. He traded up and drafted Revis. That's a once in a generation draft pick. Mo, Coples, Landry etc. it's not all as bad as you guys are making out.

Secondly it's not too much to ask for a list of names you think would 1) be an upgrade 2) actually take the job if offered. This idea that anyone would be better "addition by subtraction" was what drove the Schotty firing. And I don't think Sparano is any better. Do you>?


In all honesty, that right there, plus the Sanchez extension are the main reasons for firing him IMO.
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#44 RutgersJetFan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

first off I still am not convinved Tanny does a poor job. He traded up and drafted Revis. That's a once in a generation draft pick. Mo, Coples, Landry etc. it's not all as bad as you guys are making out.

Secondly it's not too much to ask for a list of names you think would 1) be an upgrade 2) actually take the job if offered. This idea that anyone would be better "addition by subtraction" was what drove the Schotty firing. And I don't think Sparano is any better. Do you>?


Posted Image

Edited by RutgersJetFan, 13 December 2012 - 09:41 AM.

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(Chandler)'s a nice piece as long as he's the 7th most important player on your roster....I think they're going to be disappointed when they see he's just a pumped-up Drew Gooden.


#45 Bleedin Green

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

I can dispute almost every one of those points, position by position. Interested? Did he make good moves? Good draft picks? Have things covered? Certainly not in every case, but there were qualified risks that in most case were reasonable. Rather than type all that out, I will ask you a simple question: Do you think I am crazy because I want to give Tannenbaum another season?


I have absolutely no doubt that you could, just as there are others here who would have made an even more critical argument against Tanny than I did. I certainly don't expect you to agree with all of my opinions, but the point is simple, it's reason such as the ones I listed that support my feelings why Tannenbaum should no longer be this team's GM from the day this season ends.

Truth be told, for a long time I was nowhere near considered to be a particular hater of Tanny's. I was becoming less and less happy with him as time went on, but gave him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of cases and tried not to be excessively critical, but at this point, enough is enough. There have been numerous hits and misses, the problem being the latter have been far more recurring and significant than the former (the misses often including huge contracts and numerous draft picks). However, beyond even all of that, the point is that the QB position alone is enough reason for him to be sent packing.

Fixing that position needs to be this team's top priority, and there's years of evidence that shows Tannenbaum needs to have absolutely no say whatsoever in that matter. It's been one complete disaster after another from the moment he took over as this team's GM, and you'd be hard-pressed to find many teams in this entire league who have done as piss poor of a job as he has done with the position over that time. Really think about it for a second and then consider that any of the teams you could try to make an argument for are all the complete jokes of this league. And then ask yourself, how many of the GMs that put together those messes are still employed (and furthermore, aren't on the cusp of losing their jobs now)?

I know next year will be difficult, but I want to see how it is handled. The one thing that we CAN'T let happen is giving him 2013 and letting him monkey with deals and eat up all the cap space going forward. Otherwise, I am interested to see the product on the field for 2014. I can agree that the GM doesn't necessarily require letting the season play out, but there is certainly an argument to let it play out for the coach.


Don't disagree about the coach and I'm not necessarily completely done with Rex (but again, if a new GM is brought in, you need to give him freedom to make a decision there). The problem is that another year of Tanny will ensure that future cap hits will be impacted one way or another. The Jets are at a crossroads and some serious changes need to be made. So do you let your GM mortgage the future for the present to try to save the 2013 season (something Tanny would likely be most inclined to do for a variety of reasons), or do you concede that there's lots of work to be done and go out of your way to avoid things like that in order to have an eye towards the future? In the latter case, which I think makes far more sense, how do you hand that responsibility over to a GM that you'd even have to concede at the very least would be on the hot seat going into next year? In essence, by letting Tanny stay here when the Jets move into a rebuilding season, you're either committing to him for multiple years, which is a ridiculous concept, or you're letting a guy build the team that he wants, with the high probability of turning around a year later and handing the keys to a new guy who's going to want to change up the roster all over again. The problem isn't just that Tanny deserves to be fired (although I certainly believe he does), it's that the timing of this, given everything that needs to be done, is when it makes most sense to make this kind of change.
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#46 RutgersJetFan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:58 AM

Everyone cool with shifting the Sanchez anthem of 2012 over to Tannenbaum for 2013? Seems futile to find something completely new when it works so well.


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(Chandler)'s a nice piece as long as he's the 7th most important player on your roster....I think they're going to be disappointed when they see he's just a pumped-up Drew Gooden.


#47 #27TheDominator

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:02 AM

Ridiculous concept? That's what I'm talking about. Nobody likes the current direction, but the guy should have some good will here. His tenure has not been a complete failure. You want to make the change and I see the reasons beyond the normal moronic hate that spews from this place anytime there is a loss, win against a bad team or even opening day after that drubbing. OTOH, I think it's completely insane not to see rational people could want to keep him.
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#48 Bleedin Green

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:03 AM

first off I still am not convinved Tanny does a poor job. He traded up and drafted Revis. That's a once in a generation draft pick. Mo, Coples, Landry etc. it's not all as bad as you guys are making out.


That's a completely different point. If you think Tanny has done a good job, so be it (although I think "not convinced Tanny does a poor job" is hardly a glowing endorsement). However, your position is that even those people who think Tanny sucks at his job shouldn't feel he should be fired since another person could possibly do as bad of a job. That kind of logic is completely asinine.

Secondly it's not too much to ask for a list of names you think would 1) be an upgrade 2) actually take the job if offered. This idea that anyone would be better "addition by subtraction" was what drove the Schotty firing. And I don't think Sparano is any better. Do you>?


No, the point is that a quick look around the league tells you there are plenty of people serving in the same role as Tanny who are FAAAAAR better at the job than he is and that if the Jets want to be able to regularly compete on the level of those teams, they need someone who can perform the job more reliably. There's no guarantee that a replacement will definitely be better, but using that as a reason to not even try is really the most sad example of a loser's mentality that a person could have. I am not even exaggerating when I say really cannot even fathom how somehow can have a mindset like that. I'm trying, but I can't find how anyone can think there is the slightest shred of merit to it.

While I'm far from thrilled with Sparano, I still absolutely feel he is better than Schitty. There is not a single OC in this league who I have ever seen make some of the mind-numbingly stupid calls that moron did. What a coincidence that all it took was that schmuck leaving to no longer see 3 different WRs running to the same damn spot on the football field at least a few times per game or have third down plays where literally every single player on the field run routes short of the first down marker.
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#49 Bleedin Green

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:04 AM

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I must admit, you really do have a much better approach to this whole thing.
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By day he's the (not so) mild-mannered Bleedin Green, but by night...

#50 RutgersJetFan

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

I think it's completely insane not to see rational people could want to keep him.


Considering that group consists of you, bitonti, kelly, and JiF, I'm not so sure this is the best angle to be taking here.
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(Chandler)'s a nice piece as long as he's the 7th most important player on your roster....I think they're going to be disappointed when they see he's just a pumped-up Drew Gooden.





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