RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 here you go-I supplied you information that The Jets have a positive cash flow. Now you provide a source that says they do not. Both sources say the same thing. 27 million before taxes and interest in 2011. You think revenue was up in 2012? You think MORE people went to the stadium and bought Mark Sanchez jerseys in 2012 than 2011? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I am not sure Forbes report includes all revenue streams. And JETS revenue per fan is just $15. Thats astounding when even the Jags have $59 revenue per person. So something is amiss. That is gross revenue (before expenses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Both sources say the same thing. 27 million before taxes and interest in 2011. You think revenue was up in 2012? You think MORE people went to the stadium and bought Mark Sanchez jerseys in 2012 than 2011? It is now incumbent upon you providing a source saying that the Jets are not positive cash flow. Not conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 See above- did not catch you using EBIT--- my accounting is rusty at best...they may not be cash positive! I was giving the whole thing the benefit of the doubt. But you are absolutely right. Could be like the company I was an assistant controller for. Great assets, tons of debt, nice income - but cash flow was an open credit line until the debt got restructured/new products hit the market. Pretty common in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 It is now incumbent upon you providing a source saying that the Jets are not positive cash flow. Not conjecture. i'm just going to butt in here and say- nobody, including you- have said they are net POSITIVE cash flow. you simply point out that they made 27 million before interest and taxes. unfortunately, when you have debt - $650 million to be exact- and you made money - $27 million in 2011- you have to pay both interest and taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 As promised: $650 Million in outstanding debt under "Jets Stadium Development LLC," which New York Jets LLC is the obligor. I excluded any retired debt, so these are all outstanding issues: $200M - private placement - floating - Quarterly US Libor + .50 - Maturity 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 4/1/2013 @ 102 (ie can be paid off on this date using fund already set aside to assure the bonds are repaid) $85M - private placement - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 1/31/13 @ 103 $97.5 M - private placement - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 1/31/13 @ 103 $200M - Reg S (foreign investors) - Euro dollar - Floating Quarterly Libor + .50 - Maturity 4/1/47 - Sinkable Call 4/1/13 @ 102 $85M - Private Placement - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 1/31/13 @ 103 $85M - Private Placement - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 1/31/13 @ 103 $97.5M - Reg S- Eurodollar - auction - coupon undisclosed - 4/1/47 - sinkable call undisclosed $97.5 M - private placement - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/2047 - Sinkable Call 1/31/13 @ 103 $97.5M - Reg S Eurodollar - auction - 0.9% - 4/1/47 - sinkable call undisclosed $85M - Reg S Eurodollar - undisclosed coupon - 4/1/47 - sinkable call undisclosed $85M - Reg S Eurodollar - undisclosed coupon - 4/1/47 - sinkable call undisclosed $85M - Reg S Eurodollar - undisclosed coupon - 4/1/47 - sinkable call undisclosed Does appear the bulk of that is callable between January 31st and April 1st. No idea what the terms are but he could be facing a serious cash crunch if all or some of his debt holders decide they don't like the way he is doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 i'm just going to butt in here and say- nobody, including you- have said they are net POSITIVE cash flow. you simply point out that they made 27 million before interest and taxes. unfortunately, when you have debt - $650 million to be exact- and you made money - $27 million in 2011- you have to pay both interest and taxes. Not to mention that atleast some of that 27 million in 2011 are people that took out a 15k loan over 15 years to buy a PSL. That would be booked as 15k in income for 2011 because the sale happened in 2011 - but the cash would come in over 15 years. Not sure who financed those - but I think I remember reading it was the Jets. The Jets could sell those notes on a secondary market - but its more likely that they are receiving that money over the 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 If Woody does not have a positive cash flow, in this day of theh NFL and with the favorable new CBA, then he has no business owning a franchise. An idiot could make money in this NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Does appear the bulk of that is callable between January 31st and April 1st. No idea what the terms are but he could be facing a serious cash crunch if all or some of his debt holders decide they don't like the way he is doing things. Callable means that the issuer of the debt- the Jets- can pre-pay off that debt before their maturity. That's why it's callable @ 103, ie 3% more than the principal value. In this case, it can be done no sooner than April 2013. So the investors had guaranteed payments from 2007 until April 2013. If the investors were frustrated with the Jets and wanted money back, they have the option of selling their investment to another private party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Not to mention that atleast some of that 27 million in 2011 are people that took out a 15k loan over 15 years to buy a PSL. That would be booked as 15k in income for 2011 because the sale happened in 2011 - but the cash would come in over 15 years. Not sure who financed those - but I think I remember reading it was the Jets. The Jets could sell those notes on a secondary market - but its more likely that they are receiving that money over the 15 years. TBH, I will burn out before I try and determine if the Jets are positive or bleeding money, it's kind of like trying to make savings out of my annual budget with money that doesn't exist lol, but it's definitely tight, but we also don't know all the income variables, other than they have a ton of debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Does appear the bulk of that is callable between January 31st and April 1st. No idea what the terms are but he could be facing a serious cash crunch if all or some of his debt holders decide they don't like the way he is doing things. Woody would be 100 years old at that point. I guess it will be Robert Wood Johnson V's job to solicit for TARP funds should that day come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 If Woody does not have a positive cash flow, in this day of theh NFL and with the favorable new CBA, then he has no business owning a franchise. An idiot could make money in this NFL That would be like saying any idiot could make money owning facebook. Value does not equal cash. Its really no different than the guy who lives in the 11 million dollar home - but owes 13 million for it and just got laid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 TBH, I will burn out before I try and determine if the Jets are positive or bleeding money, it's kind of like trying to make savings out of my annual budget with money that doesn't exist lol, but it's definitely tight, but we also don't know all the income variables, other than they have a ton of debt. I totally agree man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 That would be like saying any idiot could make money owning facebook. Value does not equal cash. Its really no different than the guy who lives in the 11 million dollar home - but owes 13 million for it and just got laid off. It has NOTHING to do with that. With the NFL there are GUARANTEED incomes that are escalating. Homeowners don't get paid, just for living in their house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I totally agree man. I can't get any financial info on New York Jets LLC, or New York Jets Stadium Development LLC. Must be why all the issues were private placement, no requirement to disclose financials publicly to "sophisticated investors". If it was available, Bloomberg would definitely have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 It has NOTHING to do with that. With the NFL there are GUARANTEED incomes that are escalating. Homeowners don't get paid, just for living in their house. The guarenteed income does not mean their debt does not exceed that said guarenteed income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 The guarenteed income does not mean their debt does not exceed that said guarenteed income. Still waiting for that link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I can't get any financial info on New York Jets LLC, or New York Jets Stadium Development LLC. Must be why all the issues were private placement, no requirement to disclose financials publicly to "sophisticated investors". If it was available, Bloomberg would definitely have it. I would be interested in seeing it. Not to win an argument - but I'm kind of a financial statement nerd. lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Still waiting for that link You'll never find one. See above- the Jets didn't release their financials publicly. All debt was issued privately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Still waiting for that link So am I, from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 So am I, from you. I showed you 27mil income in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I showed you 27mil income in 2011. If you think that answers your question, then you simply don't understand enough about financial statements. Not trying to be offensive, just a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 If you think that answers your question, then you simply don't understand enough about financial statements. Not trying to be offensive, just a fact. I understand more than you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I understand more than you know. Ok, if you think so. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Ok, if you think so. lol Show me what you have proven here? Other than the laughable comparison to Facebook or a homeowner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Show me what you have proven here? Other than the laughable comparison to Facebook or a homeowner 1) the Jets have 27 million in operating income (EBITA). The earlier post showing the Jets debt absorbs most if not all of the 27 million alone, then there is amortization (no cash flow related effect), and taxes. 2) atleast some of that 27 million are PSL sales which are booked as income in 2011 - but the cash is received over a number of years. Ofcourse the interest income on an annual basis does add to the 27 million - but not at the rate that the 15k deducts. If you follow. 3) the bulk of NFL income was down in 2012 (ticket sales). 27 million is where you start. You start deducting from there. Ofcourse, like BG pointed out there could be some prepaids offsetting this - but its safe to say that the Jets cash flow is most likely negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 What were additional revenues in 2012? ie: TV contracts Red zone channel merchandising on-line? http://www.businessinsider.com/sports-chart-of-the-day-nfl-revenue-still-dwarfs-other-major-sports-2012-10 Link provided says that NFL revenue grew 5.6% 2011-2012. Jets live in a media capital in a sport that has exponential revenue streams. How many NFL owners do you see selling their franchises? They don't, because even small markets are profitable. Ads I said earlier, if the NYJ are not profitable, Woody Johnson is one of the dumbest businessmen in America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 What were additional revenues in 2012? ie: TV contracts Red zone channel merchandising on-line? http://www.businessi...-sports-2012-10 Link provided says that NFL revenue grew 5.6% 2011-2012. Jets live in a media capital in a sport that has exponential revenue streams. How many NFL owners do you see selling their franchises? They don't, because even small markets are profitable. Ads I said earlier, if the NYJ are not profitable, Woody Johnson is one of the dumbest businessmen in America We both agree and posted that the Jets operating revenue was 27 Million. Are you now suggesting it was more? Do you understand what operating profit is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 We both agree and posted that the Jets operating revenue was 27 Million. Are you now suggesting it was more? Do you understand what operating profit is? I am concerned with 2012. Where payroll stayed relatively flat, and revenues increased. Wouldn't the concern be more about cash flow today, rather than last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I am concerned with 2012. Where payroll stayed relatively flat, and revenues increased. Wouldn't the concern be more about cash flow today, rather than last year? That is NFL revenue. It is split up among teams minus additional NFL expenses (legal fees, ect). Not sure how much of that makes it to the teams. The Jets are no longer selling PSL's. That is a deduction. They also probably saw a merchandise decline. Even if it goes right to the teams, 25% is only about another 7 million. I'm sure the PSL sales being lower more than makes up for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 That is NFL revenue. It is split up among teams minus additional NFL expenses (legal fees, ect). Not sure how much of that makes it to the teams. The Jets are no longer selling PSL's. That is a deduction. They also probably saw a merchandise decline. Even if it goes right to the teams, 25% is only about another 7 million. I'm sure the PSL sales being lower more than makes up for that. Not even sure if those figures include "local revenue", which would only add to the Jets coffers. There are revenue streams that are not shared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSJ Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Not even sure if those figures include "local revenue", which would only add to the Jets coffers. There are revenue streams that are not shared You think advertising revenue was up in this economy? For a team that is the laughing stock of the league and shares a town with last years super bowl champions? Not sure what you mean by local revenue. TV revenue goes through the league offices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Browns owner Haslam just said he is hiring coach 1st then will go get a GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 OMG. You can't make it up. Ummm, its the same firm that helped the Seahawks hire their GM. Sounds like a good idea to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 You think advertising revenue was up in this economy? For a team that is the laughing stock of the league and shares a town with last years super bowl champions? Not sure what you mean by local revenue. TV revenue goes through the league offices. Luxury boxes Radio revenue concessions Naming rights Those are all examples of realized local revenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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