155 replies to this topic

[pointman]

So... back to Eric Smith (who is expected to be let go) and...

[Greenseed4]

and....rounds 2-5 are rich with Safety talent this year.

Shoot, half a dozen of the safeties coming out this year were on our draft wish lists LAST year. (TJ Macdonald, Baccari Rambo, Ray Ray Armstrong, Robert Lester, Tyrann Mathieu, Tony Jefferson....etc)

Plus, this year has it's own newbie additions to compete with the returning Juniors of last year (Vaccaro, Reid, Elam, Amerson)
The question is what, of the combination of: Laron Landry, Yeremiah Bell, Josh Bush, Antonio Allen, Eric Smith and unknown rookie, do we keep to field a healthy, competitive, and yet affordable pair of safeties?

Edited by Greenseed4, 15 January 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[bitonti]

and....rounds 2-5 are rich with Safety talent this year.

Shoot, half a dozen of the safeties coming out this year were on our draft wish lists LAST year. (TJ Macdonald, Baccari Rambo, Ray Ray Armstrong, Robert Lester, Tyrann Mathieu, Tony Jefferson....etc)

Plus, this year has it's own newbie additions to compete with the returning Juniors of last year (Vaccaro, Reid, Elam, Amerson)
The question is what, of the combination of: Laron Landry, Yeremiah Bell, Josh Bush, Antonio Allen, Eric Smith and unknown rookie, do we keep to field a healthy, competitive, and yet affordable pair of safeties?

this is all true but with all the other positions lacking players, they should just sign Laron and focus the draft on other positions.

[Greenseed4]

this is all true but with all the other positions lacking players, they should just sign Laron and focus the draft on other positions.

I'm going to fight you on this one.

I think our team needs to start collecting players in the draft based on the strength of the draft. (i.e., draft a QB in QB-rich drafts; draft OL in OL-rich drafts; draft DBs in DB-rich drafts, etc.) I don't care who we have on roster.

Laron played extremely well last year (in a contract year), but this year, after getting a payday he'll be paid, and iffy. Bell is old, and iffy. Smith is expensive, and iffy. Bush/Allen are young, and iffy. Who really know what combination of current safeties on roster will be with us come August.

Lets continue to invest in our team's strengths rather than "fill" holes to complete the roster.

[bitonti]

Laron played extremely well last year (in a contract year), but this year, after getting a payday he'll be paid, and iffy.

Landry is an elite player who the Jets were lucky enough to get on the cheap. they should keep him. There are alot of good safeties this year but none will go 5 overall or wherever Landry was drafted. Keep in mind that Rex works really well with Landry's at safety on his defense.

[Greenseed4]

I think he was drafted #6 overall, and for good reason; his skill set (even as a rookie) was phenomenal. Can we find a somewhat comparable talent in the middle rounds of the draft? Some other rookie to play near his level of production for less money, and less (health) risk?

It is a safety-strong draft. We can get a speedy, big-hitting safety sans the injury concerns for much less money.

[bitonti]

I think he was drafted #6 overall, and for good reason; his skill set (even as a rookie) was phenomenal. Can we find a somewhat comparable talent in the middle rounds of the draft? Some other rookie to play near his level of production for less money, and less (health) risk?

It is a safety-strong draft. We can get a speedy, big-hitting safety sans the injury concerns for much less money.

define middle rounds. I don't think Eric Reid is gonna make it past late rd 1. You'll get a guy in the middle rounds but he won't be fast.

[Jets2013]

this is all true but with all the other positions lacking players, they should just sign Laron and focus the draft on other positions.

I agree with this

[#27TheDominator]

this is all true but with all the other positions lacking players, they should just sign Laron and focus the draft on other positions.

Strongly disagree. Low level FAs for need and draft BAP. Being allowed to focus the draft wherever is why you sign guys like Yeremiah Bell, not put $25M down on Landry. You can't simply throw a sh*tload of money at Laron Landry just so that you don't need to draft a safety. Then what do you do when you have no OGs under contract and Kenny Vaccaro is there in the 4th or 5th round? Draft a guard or draft Vaccaro and start Adrien Clarke 2.0?

[Greenseed4]

define middle rounds. I don't think Eric Reid is gonna make it past late rd 1. You'll get a guy in the middle rounds but he won't be fast.

Middle rounds THIS year, would've been first or second round picks last year.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Landry back in the fold, but that shouldn't exclude passing on a talented safety in a later round.

As good as Landry's production was: 75 tackles, 9 PD, 2 Int, 4 FF, 1 TD. That sort of production doesn't warrant the price tag of three other roster spots, especially not in a safety-rich draft class.


on edit:
Sorry Bit, Middle rounds defined as rounds 3-5.

Edited by Greenseed4, 15 January 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[StraightCash]

I will say this... Safety is the type of position you shouldn't have to overpay for in free agency, good safeties can be found in the draft, just like good RBs... we just happen to have a scouting department that has been historically bad at finding both positions.

Hopefully a new GM comes with new scouting and we can reverse this trend. There are only a few positions I personally believe you should routinely be willing to pay big FA money for, the rest should be cycled onto the roster through the draft.

Yes and no. Coleman and Rhodes both worked well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bush was starting next year.

RBs... eh. You could do worse than Jordan, Washington, Powell, and Greene.

[bitonti]

Strongly disagree. Low level FAs for need and draft BAP. Being allowed to focus the draft wherever is why you sign guys like Yeremiah Bell, not put $25M down on Landry. You can't simply throw a sh*tload of money at Laron Landry just so that you don't need to draft a safety. Then what do you do when you have no OGs under contract and Kenny Vaccaro is there in the 4th or 5th round? Draft a guard or draft Vaccaro and start Adrien Clarke 2.0?

Kenny Vaccaro is rumored to be the #1 safety in the land. He or Reid will go late 1. maybe both in that range. You are right if the Jets could get rd1 safeties in rd5 that would be awesome. But it's not gonna go that way. the guys in rd 5 are gonna be huge projects. like every other year.

As for guard, they can resign Moore for the same reason they could resign Landry... because they have other problems to fix in the draft. the offense is in shambles they can't draft safeties (or guards for that matter).

Edited by bitonti, 15 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[#27TheDominator]

Kenny Vaccaro is rumored to be the #1 safety in the land. He or Reid will go late 1. maybe both in that range. You are right if the Jets could get rd1 safeties in rd5 that would be awesome. But it's not gonna go that way. the guys in rd 5 are gonna be huge projects. like every other year.

As for guard, they can resign Moore for the same reason they could resign Landry... because they have other problems to fix in the draft. the offense is in shambles they can't draft safeties (or guards for that matter).

My Vaccaro comment was an exaggeration for emphasis. You need to lock up every position. Then upgrade with the draft. They should resign guys cheap, but not spend huge money long term money on injury prone guys. I'm all for signing Landry, but the deal can't be too rich. If it is, let him walk and pay for somebody else. IMO the on field difference between Landry and Bell isn't $5M which is the difference in pay the OP is talking about.

[Integrity28]

Yes and no. Coleman and Rhodes both worked well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bush was starting next year.

RBs... eh. You could do worse than Jordan, Washington, Powell, and Greene.

Jordan was the best RB we've drafted in the past 15 years. We never used him.

Washington was a kick returner, a far cry from a "good RB".

Greene stinks. Any RB in the NFL today that cannot catch the ball is worthless. It is a passing league. Powell might be good, remains to be seen. Jury is out.

[Lupz27]

I think he was drafted #6 overall, and for good reason; his skill set (even as a rookie) was phenomenal. Can we find a somewhat comparable talent in the middle rounds of the draft? Some other rookie to play near his level of production for less money, and less (health) risk?

It is a safety-strong draft. We can get a speedy, big-hitting safety sans the injury concerns for much less money.

Great, so we shoot for a guy say in round 3 that we think COULD be comparable to Landry (doubt any S in this draft is comparable to a healthy Landry never mind 3rd round).

Then what? Who else starts at S? Bush? Allen? Resign E Smith? IF we had another S on the roster who was signed, and projected to start, and be a competent starter, then yes let him walk, and try, and find his replacement, BUT we don't have a starting FS, or SS on the team, and the odds of drafting 2 that can start day 1 is silly to think UNLESS you WASTE 2, of your 1st 3 picks on a Safety, and that is not a very smart play!

The move here is to sign Landry, trade Cro, and try, and find a true FS prospect in rd 3, and bring in a cheap veteran who can hold the fort if prospect can't cut it year 1, and with Landry's versatillity to play both positions it opens up more options on which veteran cheap FA to sign.

And for all you why trade Cromartie people, 1st his value is at it's all time peak, yes including when we spent a 2nd rounder on him, the ideal trade is for a 2nd round 2014 pick, THAT escalates to a 1st RD pick if (insert conditions of the conditional pick agreement in the deal), just like we did to obtain him in 2010. Not to mention the Jets defense was at it's best when Revis was the only elite CB on the roster, hell he was the only talent at CB on the roster that year 2009, when Rex got Cromartie he got away from his overloaded blitz's that were either not picked up by the QB, and led to a sack, or a throw away, or if picked up it FORCED the proper read for the QB to be the WR Revis was covering, and that is a matchup the Jets, Ryan, and most Jets fans will take their chances on EVERY single time, Rex needs to have Cromartie taken away from him so he can get back to the 2009 version of his genius IMO.

[#27TheDominator]

The idea of trading these guys is nice, but you have no idea what their value is. Everybody should be available for the right price, but you can't simply count on trading these guys for high picks. If it were that easy there'd be a bunch more guys getting moved. Most of the time these guys get moved for 5th rounders - see Edwards, Braylon and Holmes, Santonio. The move here is not to lock up more money long term. Especially when we don't have any money.

[Lupz27]

The idea of trading these guys is nice, but you have no idea what their value is. Everybody should be available for the right price, but you can't simply count on trading these guys for high picks. If it were that easy there'd be a bunch more guys getting moved. Most of the time these guys get moved for 5th rounders - see Edwards, Braylon and Holmes, Santonio. The move here is not to lock up more money long term. Especially when we don't have any money.

Ok I will give you 2 hypothetical, but very realistic scenario's you HAVE to choose one, or the other, there is plenty of other ways to go, but IF these were your only 2 choices what would you do?

Let Landry walk for NOTHING, maybe a comp 5th, or 6th, and keep Cromartie for the next 2 years for at a cap hit of 10.75 mill in 2013 with a dead cap hit of 9.5 mill if cut, but only a 1.25 mill dead cap hit if traded, and then a 10.75 mill cap hit in 2014, with a dead money hit of 1.25 mill if cut, or traded.

Or sign Landry at a comparable 4 year (really only a 2 year deal) from my original post, and get at the very least what we gave up for Cromartie a 2nd round pick.

Of the 2 scenario's which one do you choose?

[pointman]

Kenny Vaccaro is rumored to be the #1 safety in the land. He or Reid will go late 1. maybe both in that range. You are right if the Jets could get rd1 safeties in rd5 that would be awesome. But it's not gonna go that way. the guys in rd 5 are gonna be huge projects. like every other year.

As for guard, they can resign Moore for the same reason they could resign Landry... because they have other problems to fix in the draft. the offense is in shambles they can't draft safeties (or guards for that matter).

You act like re-signing a guy like Landry is so simple. Our cap situation is bad, and he is in demand.

[#27TheDominator]

Ok I will give you 2 hypothetical, but very realistic scenario's you HAVE to choose one, or the other, there is plenty of other ways to go, but IF these were your only 2 choices what would you do?

Let Landry walk for NOTHING, maybe a comp 5th, or 6th, and keep Cromartie for the next 2 years for at a cap hit of 10.75 mill in 2013 with a dead cap hit of 9.5 mill if cut, but only a 1.25 mill dead cap hit if traded, and then a 10.75 mill cap hit in 2014, with a dead money hit of 1.25 mill if cut, or traded.

Or sign Landry at a comparable 4 year (really only a 2 year deal) from my original post, and get at the very least what we gave up for Cromartie a 2nd round pick.

Of the 2 scenario's which one do you choose?

I can't say I follow all the money numbers, but if you are talking about paying Landry what we are paying Cromartie I say HELL NO. If you are talking Landry and a #2 for Cromartie it's close to a push, but I think I'd still stick with Cromartie. The purpose of moving Cro would be to get the money back and giving it all to another DB ruins the purpose for me. S is not a position I want to spend big money on. I do like Landry and would like to keep him, but I don't see him as a MUST HAVE guy. I don't remember Cro's deal, but isn't there some bonus money that will be due if we trade him or does his number all come off the cap by now?

[Lupz27]

I can't say I follow all the money numbers, but if you are talking about paying Landry what we are paying Cromartie I say HELL NO. If you are talking Landry and a #2 for Cromartie it's close to a push, but I think I'd still stick with Cromartie. The purpose of moving Cro would be to get the money back and giving it all to another DB ruins the purpose for me. S is not a position I want to spend big money on. I do like Landry and would like to keep him, but I don't see him as a MUST HAVE guy. I don't remember Cro's deal, but isn't there some bonus money that will be due if we trade him or does his number all come off the cap by now?

Scenario 1 keeping Cro, letting Landry walk for MAYBE a 5th, probably a 6th rd comp pick, 2013 cap hit 10.75 million, plus draft pick salary (not even relevant), 2014 cap hit 10.75 mill, or cut bait, and take the 9.5 million in savings, it is only a 1.25 mill dead money hit after the 2013 season (9.5 million dead cap hit if cut prior to this season)

Scenario 2 Signing Landry to a type of deal I posted in the original post, this would be a 2 million 2013 cap hit, and a 7.66 million cap hit in 2014, with the option to cut him after the 2014 season at 2 million dead, or keep him at 7.66 mill cap hit, and an option to keep him for the 4th year at 7.66 mill cap hit, or cut for 1 million dead cap space. Trading Cromartie nets a 2nd rounder (I think you can get a conditional 1st added into the deal, but lets just say 2nd rounder) in 2014, Cromartie has a prorated bonus of 1.25 million, so trading Cromartie is a 2.5 mill dead cap hit in 2013, (if I am wrong someone please correct me, and I appologize, but I think I am correct here)

So Scenario 1 is a 2013 cap hit of 10.75 mill with Cromartie, and the 2014 option at cutting bait for dead 1.25 mill, or keep at 10.75 mill.

Scenario 2 is a 2013 cap hit of 4 million, with Landry, and a 2014 2nd rounder, and in 2014 a cap hit of 7.66 million plus whatever the 2nd rounder's cap hit is, with Landry, and extra 2nd round drafted player.