SenorGato Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Sam Acho is a good player. Who else has won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 When? That was probably last year when they were asked to "lighten up" to help team speed. Pace was at 270 for a few years. another good one, Lamarr Woodley is 265 at 6'2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Whether it's Jarvis Jones, Dion Jordan or Ziggy Ansah, there's almost no way that Rex is having any of them be an every down player out of the gate. Im not asking for every down right away but production should happen. Jones will produce year 1, and probably so will Jordan. Ansah might not produce until year 3 or 4 in Rex's D. In a giants type defense where he just puts his hand down and go he might do better. In this complex defense with crazy blitzes and linemen standing up and covering on 3rd down, Ansah would probably be useless. It would be a vlad-like development timeframe. Considering Vlad is from Haiti and Ansah is from Ghana and both late to the game (but exceptional athletes) i don't think this is an unfair comparison. Vlad is probably gonna start in year 4 if that was Ansah's timeframe would we be ok with that? Let's be real we'd want him run out of town after year 2 (just like Vlad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Sam Acho is a good player. Who else has won? I always mention Earl Wolff as one of my favorite top Safeties. He ran fast today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Sam Acho is a good player. Who else has won? Brandon Graham was an MVP assume there was no Outstanding Defensive player that year. I can email the guys over there and see if I can get a list. This is actually a good review of Ansah in practice (3 wins, 7 losses). I even agree with the projection of "eventual starter within 2 years" and possible top 10 pick. Just don't think he's a great fit for this defense. http://seniorbowl.com/article.asp?articleID=515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Coach Mooch, Combine coverage, verbatim: "This guy is from Ghana, and he didn't play pop warner growing up...this guy came to BYU probably to play a little track a little basketball, and then decided to play some football. Like you said just 9 starts, so 'raw' is the word....but you've got coaches in the stands going, 'Oh My Gawd I want to get my hands on that guy, because I can do some creative things with him'...He's such a great athlete, and scouts and the coaches have to fit him in the right scheme, and then the coaches have to develop him because this guy is going to be a project. A fun project! But you remember that guy named Aldon Smith only had couple years of football too, and he turned out to be a sack machine. So this is going to be fun to watch." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I haven't even considered the whole BYU angle: breeding good-character Mormon players. At least that's one concern we don't have to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Please don't act like setting the edge is meaningless. It's the most important thing and it's not easy. It's probably the key to the entire defense and it is why the younger guys that we all think have potential have trouble getting on the field. Not sure how you came away with that from my post, as that was one of the driving forces behind my argument. These guys are not going to be adept at setting the edge and putting him in there on first and ten with that counter coming right at him and smacking him in the mouth, he's not going to like that and that's how you get guys to become disinterested. Instead, you do as I suggested and what Rex has always done, put them in a position to succeed early on, until they gain confidence and can figure it out so as they can be in there on all three days. Not sure how any of that came across as me dismissing setting the edge; granted I do feel you can teach someone to set the edge a whole hell of a lot more easily than teaching someone to get after the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Im not asking for every down right away but production should happen. Jones will produce year 1, and probably so will Jordan. Ansah might not produce until year 3 or 4 in Rex's D. In a giants type defense where he just puts his hand down and go he might do better. In this complex defense with crazy blitzes and linemen standing up and covering on 3rd down, Ansah would probably be useless. It would be a vlad-like development timeframe. Considering Vlad is from Haiti and Ansah is from Ghana and both late to the game (but exceptional athletes) i don't think this is an unfair comparison. Vlad is probably gonna start in year 4 if that was Ansah's timeframe would we be ok with that? Let's be real we'd want him run out of town after year 2 (just like Vlad). Jordan is almost as new to the defensive side of the ball as Ansah is to football, so I'm not sure I buy that Jordan will have this miraculous transition to the NFL compared to Ansah. Bouncing around as a WR and TE before being converted to that side of the ball, Jordan does not have the lingo down either, so I don't see the huge advantage here. By from haiti and ghana you mean both are from third world countries (one being in the carribean and the other africa lol) and black right?? Because other than that, I don't see the similarities. Ducasse moved from PauP when he was 13, was all county high school football and was CAA and FCS first team all american in college. Ziggy was recruited by a missionary to come from Ghana and has only been playing football for two years. Besides being foreign born and black, I see absolutely no similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 1. It's a throwaway year, why not let him develop? 2. He DOES too have pass rush moves, he has a rip, a swim, and a bull-rush. With NFL coaching and more experience I think he could develop a nasty spin move. 3. Put him where Bryan Thomas used to not do anything. He can not do anything over there. Like Thomas he can set the edge against the run, and who knows, maybe like Thomas not be effective rushing the passer. He can only get better, this will be what, his second real year of playing? Not sure how you came away with that from my post, as that was one of the driving forces behind my argument. These guys are not going to be adept at setting the edge and putting him in there on first and ten with that counter coming right at him and smacking him in the mouth, he's not going to like that and that's how you get guys to become disinterested. Instead, you do as I suggested and what Rex has always done, put them in a position to succeed early on, until they gain confidence and can figure it out so as they can be in there on all three days. Not sure how any of that came across as me dismissing setting the edge; granted I do feel you can teach someone to set the edge a whole hell of a lot more easily than teaching someone to get after the QB. It's easy to tell how I came away with that from your post... I didn't. It was this cluster**** new quote system. I was actually trying to respond to Greenseed's post, which I quoted again above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 It's easy to tell how I came away with that from your post... I didn't. It was this cluster**** new quote system. I was actually trying to respond to Greenseed's post, which I quoted again above. Lol fair enough. These arguments get so abstract and convoluted that I wouldn't have at all been surprised if I said something that I 100% disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Lol fair enough. These arguments get so abstract and convoluted that I wouldn't have at all been surprised if I said something that I 100% disagree with. I DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Jordan is almost as new to the defensive side of the ball as Ansah is to football, so I'm not sure I buy that Jordan will have this miraculous transition to the NFL compared to Ansah. Bouncing around as a WR and TE before being converted to that side of the ball, Jordan does not have the lingo down either, so I don't see the huge advantage here. By from haiti and ghana you mean both are from third world countries (one being in the carribean and the other africa lol) and black right?? Because other than that, I don't see the similarities. Ducasse moved from PauP when he was 13, was all county high school football and was CAA and FCS first team all american in college. Ziggy was recruited by a missionary to come from Ghana and has only been playing football for two years. Besides being foreign born and black, I see absolutely no similarities. Jordan at least has production, 13 career sacks. We are draftniks, debating every minute detail but joe casual fan is gonna see the Jets pick Ansah, and wonder how it's differnt than Gholston. And the difference was that Gholston actually a more accomplished prospect from a bigger school and with tons more production. but at the end of the day all people remember is the combne and it's still taking a 4.6 DE and moving him to a position and a defense he's never played. Give or take 10 pounds. And there's a vlad comparison to make, as you point out, Ziggy is arguably even rawer than Vlad coming out. I don't get why it's racist to make this comparison, both guys had the highlight of their pre-draft careers in Mobile. And neither was even close to a finished product. People aren't projecting either player to be an instant starter. I hope for an instant starter out of the 9 pick, whatever the position. Ziggy flashed the Senior Bowl game and combine and he's gonna go high, but by and large this just doesn't seem like a great fit. The Jets need football players now, not some sort of nebulous 5 year plan. I dont agree that 2013 is a throwaway year, and neither do the people paying for season tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I agree the Jets need production now, rather than projects. The time to draft projects was when they were drafting projects. The problem is that they never hit on them and/or they didn't develop them. OTOH, Joe Casual Fan can blow me. I barely care what you people think, let alone what Joe Casual Fan thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 It's easy to tell how I came away with that from your post... I didn't. It was this cluster**** new quote system. I was actually trying to respond to Greenseed's post, which I quoted again above. In that post I was responding to Bitonti. I'm saying that Ansah can step in for Thomas right away and we wouldn't have a fall off in production from a run stopping perspective, but would see dividends in the pass rush...moreso as he continues to develop. There isn't a polished pass rusher in this draft that I would prefer. Mingo and Jordan would both be liabilities in the run, and Jones scares me with his stenosis and limited size. He's 6'2, 245. He can put on pounds (and lose his best attribute; speed) but he'll never be taller than 6'2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 In that post I was responding to Bitonti. I'm saying that Ansah can step in for Thomas right away and we wouldn't have a fall off in production from a run stopping perspective, but would see dividends in the pass rush...moreso as he continues to develop. There isn't a polished pass rusher in this draft that I would prefer. Mingo and Jordan would both be liabilities in the run, and Jones scares me with his stenosis and limited size. He's 6'2, 245. He can put on pounds (and lose his best attribute; speed) but he'll never be taller than 6'2. I know what you are saying and what you are responding to. I think it is wrong to discount the importance and difficulty in setting the edge. If it were so easy then Maybin would have done it. Yes Maybin was a shrimp, but it is still a skill and a guy as raw as Ansah is not going to sniff being as good at it as Pace and Thomas. Those guys were convenient whipping boys, but their ability to set the edge was a large part of the reason this team was so good against the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I know what you are saying and what you are responding to. I think it is wrong to discount the importance and difficulty in setting the edge. If it were so easy then Maybin would have done it. Yes Maybin was a shrimp, but it is still a skill and a guy as raw as Ansah is not going to sniff being as good at it as Pace and Thomas. Those guys were convenient whipping boys, but their ability to set the edge was a large part of the reason this team was so good against the run. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying Ansah can do it. Having experience playing DT and DE, where he routinely faced double teams probably helped him. He actually sets the edge quite well from what I can tell. Look at his play in the Senior Bowl, I'm not jerking around. In the clip I posted (pg 7?) you see a couple highlights of him doing this at the All-Star game. With coaching on hand play he can only get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Mingo is the best of the small group just mentioned at setting the edge. He's further along than everyone else and is somewhat underrated in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Mingo is the best of the small group just mentioned at setting the edge. He's further along than everyone else and is somewhat underrated in that area. seriously? If I'm game planning, I would rather run at than away from Mingo. Guy's quick as crap, but not stout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 seriously? If I'm game planning, I would rather run at than away from Mingo. Guy's quick as crap, but not stout. . Well yeah, on a team with Wilkerson/Pouha/hopefullyDeVito/Coples/Ellis teams should run at the 245 pound guy. I'm saying he'd do a better job than his height/weight might indicate, and as a rookie is more capable of of being a 3 down guy. Right now Mingo/Ansah for me are the very lite equivalent of Ware/Merriman to me. Both are freak athletes but one I throw the whole playbook at and the other I tell them to just hit the guy with the ball on third, maybe first/second and third down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Drafting a guy at 9 who pretty much started playing football 2? years ago is a rough sell for a team with as many holes at the Jets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Mingo is the best of the small group just mentioned at setting the edge. He's further along than everyone else and is somewhat underrated in that area. I just wanted to apologize, Mr. Cat. I just watched each of the "fantastic 4" in their respective bowl games (minus Oregon, couldn't find that). What I came away with was, Barkevious Mingo is the best prospect...by far. He doesn't stop running, and is surprisingly strong for his size. If college ball was two-hand touch Mingo would have had twenty sacks in that game. His spin move doesn't always work, but it's nice to see him trying different things. He actually tries to split defenders in a double team, or work his way off of one. Ansah will just occupy them. Jones pulls back and kinda jogs around. And I didn't see Jordan getting double-teamed in the game I watched. What was most impressive, was Mingo's ability to find the ball and pursue it at the correct angle. I saw Jones tackle a guy who didn't have the ball. Ansah rarely got to the QB but was there when the pocket came to him, and Jordan does an outside speed & reach maneuver. Mingo was bull-rushing an OT that must have had 60lbs on him, and he was walking him back. His stunts are incredible, his technique is refined (and can only get better) and dude shoots out of a cannon. I'm sorry for questioning Mingo's ability. He is clearly the pick at #9 if he's still there. Rex has been talking about how Mo Wilk and Coples push the pocket back, and how he needs a guy to push the QB forward. Well, Mingo's best trick is getting the QB to step up into the pocket. He is so fast that he provides that back-to-front pressure. I think his presence here would do wonders for our pass rush, and not just from a single-player perspective. I really think Mingo would make our other pass rushers (Mo & Co) better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 No need to apologize but YEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 I'm sorry for questioning Mingo's ability. He is clearly the pick at #9 if he's still there. Mingo and Jordan both have rare speed, if either fall to 9 it's a no brainer. They both should be gone by 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Mingo and Jordan both have rare speed, if either fall to 9 it's a no brainer. They both should be gone by 5. See what happens? I finally like the guy, and now he's going to be unavailable. Your Mock.2 has him going to Jacksonville...I don't see that happening. The other possible landing spots are Cleveland and Buffalo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 That's just bit being bit. It's an art. He's probably right about Mingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 there was some article posted about the avg time for each of these players sacks. (it may have been posted in this forum, and if so I apologize for being repetitive.) Mingo and Jordan both got to the QB in an avg under 4 seconds. That's rare speed. Jarvis was about 4 seconds and some have speculated that alot of Jones' sacks were of the coverage variety. the Draft is all about upside and Mingo/Jordan clearly have a ton of it, as does Ansah. It's possible (likely?) that none are on the board at 9. meanwhile guys like Werner and Star who were consensus top 5 guys pre-combine will probably be there when the Jets pick... and the crazy thing is that the Jets could pass. They wouldnt pass on Mingo or Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 That's just bit being bit. It's an art. He's probably right about Mingo. the year I had the most success predicting the Mock draft was the year I assumed every team's pick in front of the jets would be bad for the jets. Predicting that the Jets get lucky and Mingo/Jordan will be there at 9 is not a way to win that contest. Last year I really boned it and need a bounce back. Im going back to what works. Expect the Jets to get screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 What year was that? The Jets haven't been screwed in three years... Coplea/Wilkerson/Wilson were all very high on the wish list for Jets fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 What year was that? The Jets haven't been screwed in three years... Coplea/Wilkerson/Wilson were all very high on the wish list for Jets fans. the last time i recorded a top 10 finish was the Gholston year. 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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