90 replies to this topic

[sirlancemehlot]

You mean Calvin Johnson isn't better than Nate Burleson and T.J. Graham?

sure, johnsons better. And apparently they all block exactly the same. Hines Ward is somewhere rolling over in his grave right now. And he's not even dead yet. Not yet.

[#27TheDominator]

sure, johnsons better. And apparently they all block exactly the same. Hines Ward is somewhere rolling over in his grave right now. And he's not even dead yet. Not yet.

Dude, I was only joking and you had to bring up that chop blocking little scumbag. Thanks. Well, if he's in his grave already, okay.

Edited by #27TheDominator, 05 February 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[jack48]

def a good complement to Santonio

[JohnnyHector]

My god. I cannot stand this. This chart and the absolutely nonsensical charts like it make me want to scream while strangling a monkey nude in the middle of a public library. They try to do the impossible and the chart and stats sheep gobble it up. There is no validity to these supposed "metrics". They are the sh*ttiest of all bullsh*t arguments. It's crap like this that makes the jets line the 3rd best in the league. And the blind will just go, "hmm. I see. This chart, it goes against everything I've witnessed and all the opinions I've derived by actually observing, but it is a chart. And there are these metrics things to consider. Well, hell! This means we're awesome! Lets draft another DE!"

[Jetsfan80]

My god. I cannot stand this. This chart and the absolutely nonsensical charts like it make me want to scream while strangling a monkey nude in the middle of a public library. They try to do the impossible and the chart and stats sheep gobble it up. There is no validity to these supposed "metrics". They are the sh*ttiest of all bullsh*t arguments. It's crap like this that makes the jets line the 3rd best in the league. And the blind will just go, "hmm. I see. This chart, it goes against everything I've witnessed and all the opinions I've derived by actually observing, but it is a chart. And there are these metrics things to consider. Well, hell! This means we're awesome! Lets draft another DE!"

sure, johnsons better. And apparently they all block exactly the same. Hines Ward is somewhere rolling over in his grave right now. And he's not even dead yet. Not yet.

These posts are nonsensical. And I say this with all due respect, as you're one of my favorites.

1. Yes, the chart indicates that these WR's are about equal at blocking. That's because most WR's really ARE about equal at blocking, because that isn't their job. Only rarely do you need a WR to make a key block, and I imagine its a rare occasion when teams make a real effort to test of a WR's blocking skills.

2. No validity to the metrics? Looks like those are right on. Burleson and Young grade out to below average receivers, Megatron and Andre are off the charts.

3. Show me the chart that says we have a top 3 offensive line, then we'll talk. Our line is about average at run blocking and pretty strong at pass-blocking these days, but we're not top 3.

4. Sure, why not draft a DE? The 2 elements every championship contender has these days are 1) Franchise QB, and 2) Pass-rush. If we can't fix the QB situation in the 2013 draft (likely seeing as this QB class is less than inspiring) I'd be in full support of bringing in another pass-rusher. It'll sure as hell make the potential loss of Revis sting much less.

Edited by Jetsfan80, 05 February 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[sirlancemehlot]

These posts are nonsensical. And I say this with all due respect, as you're one of my favorites.

1. Yes, the chart indicates that these WR's are about equal at blocking. That's because most WR's really ARE about equal at blocking, because that isn't their job. Only rarely do you need a WR to make a key block, and I imagine its a rare occasion when teams make a real effort to test of a WR's blocking skills.

2. No validity to the metrics? Looks like those are right on. Burleson and Young grade out to below average receivers, Megatron and Andre are off the charts.

3. Show me the chart that says we have a top 3 offensive line, then we'll talk. Our line is about average at run blocking and pretty strong at pass-blocking these days, but we're not top 3.

4. Sure, why not draft a DE? The 2 elements every championship contender has these days are 1) Franchise QB, and 2) Pass-rush. If we can't fix the QB situation in the 2013 draft (likely seeing as this QB class is less than inspiring) I'd be in full support of bringing in another pass-rusher. It'll sure as hell make the potential loss of Revis sting much less.

Yes these charts are rubbish. Fans try to make football fit the baseball/basketball model where stats represent production individually. On a given "play" in baseball, there is one active batter. You can even count a base runner or two if you want. But offensively, they are either batting, or running. So stats and metrics work lovely. In the field you have one-to two guys either throwing or catching...maybe a third if there's a cutoff man. Easy stats, clear results. Football works nothing like this whatsover. 11 offensive guys, 11 defensive guys, each with individual jobs meshing together for a collective result, jobs outlined and determined by plays created by and called by coordinators, which ofetn change mid-play according to reactions to the opposing fronts shown. hot-routes, audibles, check-downs. Go ahead and hire Stephen Hawking, you'll never get an accurate chart on individual performance versus individual performance given the variables of teammates, differing schemes/coordinators/complementary positions/abilities. Which is why Mangold is the greatest when next to Faneca, but is haveing a "down year" next to Slauson, and why Reggie Wayne was washed up last year, and a probowler with Andrew Luck behind center. These. Charts. Are. Useless.
Also, you must have missed the thread where "metrics" determined the Jets OL to be #3 in the league.
Please take no offense...my annoyance is not with you, but the nonsensical statisticians who try to simplify an incredibly complex game and boil it down to charts and "metrics". It just isn't an accurate portrayal of individual accomplishment or lack thereof.

[Jetsfan80]

Yes these charts are rubbish. Fans try to make football fit the baseball/basketball model where stats represent production individually. On a given "play" in baseball, there is one active batter. You can even count a base runner or two if you want. But offensively, they are either batting, or running. So stats and metrics work lovely. In the field you have one-to two guys either throwing or catching...maybe a third if there's a cutoff man. Easy stats, clear results. Football works nothing like this whatsover. 11 offensive guys, 11 defensive guys, each with individual jobs meshing together for a collective result, jobs outlined and determined by plays created by and called by coordinators, which ofetn change mid-play according to reactions to the opposing fronts shown. hot-routes, audibles, check-downs. Go ahead and hire Stephen Hawking, you'll never get an accurate chart on individual performance versus individual performance given the variables of teammates, differing schemes/coordinators/complementary positions/abilities. Which is why Mangold is the greatest when next to Faneca, but is haveing a "down year" next to Slauson, and why Reggie Wayne was washed up last year, and a probowler with Andrew Luck behind center. These. Charts. Are. Useless.
Also, you must have missed the thread where "metrics" determined the Jets OL to be #3 in the league.
Please take no offense...my annoyance is not with you, but the nonsensical statisticians who try to simplify an incredibly complex game and boil it down to charts and "metrics". It just isn't an accurate portrayal of individual accomplishment or lack thereof.

None of this is based on statistics though. It's on a scout's interpretation of a player's skill set based on tape, measurables, and playing ability. Its not worthless.

Certainly you must find value in grading out individual players, no? Otherwise why have a scouting department? In your estimation people should just throw up their hands, say, "this game is too complicated to evaluate any one player!" and leave it at that.

Edited by Jetsfan80, 05 February 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[sirlancemehlot]

None of this is based on statistics though. It's on a scout's interpretation of a player's skill set based on tape, measurables, and playing ability. Its not worthless.

Certainly you must find value in grading out individual players, no? Otherwise why have a scouting department? In your estimation people should just throw up their hands, say, "this game is too complicated to evaluate any one player!" and leave it at that.

No, not at all. I judge by actually viewing games and seeing what the players accomplish. There is no way Nate Burleson Blocks as well as Andre Johnson. I've seen them play. It is simply inaccurate. Whatever measurable is being used to judge blocking ability, is obviously flawed. What are the standards? Are they actually applying the chart to WR only, or is this a basic chart used to maesure all positions wherein all Offensive Tackles would rate highly in blocking but poorly or not at all in running or passing? Or is running = to run blocking and passing = to pass blocking? In which case, what does the general term "blocking" stand for? A chart is only as good as its creator and its application. This chart is bogus. Most football charts are bogus. For every chart that says one thing, another can be created using arbitrary metrics to say the opposite. Which is why scouts watch players and play and don't generally pick on the basis of statistics. If that was the case, Danny Woodhead would have been a top ten draft pick. And Coples would have fallen to the third round.

[#27TheDominator]

Sure. I bet they grade offensive tackles on passing accuracy too. It doesn't matter how well a WR blocks because on more than 75% of the plays his block is successful simply by having a DB lineup opposite. For the Jets the past few years it has probably been closer to 95%.

[sirlancemehlot]

Sure. I bet they grade offensive tackles on passing accuracy too. It doesn't matter how well a WR blocks because on more than 75% of the plays his block is successful simply by having a DB lineup opposite. For the Jets the past few years it has probably been closer to 95%.

yeah, thats exactly right. Grading a wr on blocking in a chart doesn't compare to grading a guard. So the metric for blocking, if standardized among all offensive players, would show all WRs to be stacked closely (like the chart above). The same would go for grading punters in blocking. Or centers in rushing.

[JohnnyHector]

No, not at all. I judge by actually viewing games and seeing what the players accomplish.

Ah, the infallible eye test that is applied while watching a game through a television camera that shows only a small portion of the field...

[#27TheDominator]

yeah, thats exactly right. Grading a wr on blocking in a chart doesn't compare to grading a guard. So the metric for blocking, if standardized among all offensive players, would show all WRs to be stacked closely (like the chart above). The same would go for grading punters in blocking. Or centers in rushing.

Then what's the problem?

[sirlancemehlot]

Then what's the problem?

No problem! Lets never fight again, man.

[sirlancemehlot]

Ah, the infallible eye test that is applied while watching a game through a television camera that shows only a small portion of the field...

All dominant players will show up on camera at several points throughout the season, the only exception being a lockdown corner. And they get their just due by not being on highlight reels.

[#27TheDominator]

No problem! Lets never fight again, man.

Screw you, hippie.

[redman81]

St Louis can deal with him now.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Dude was dropped, again, after being on a team for not even two weeks.  It's like he's milton bradley and albert belle mixed together.  When you have all the potential in the world and In a league where talent trumps all and you get cut twice, you know you're a special kind of a$$hole.  

[JerryK]

The guy is a nutjob.  Intentionally wrecked plays during close games. 

[bassmaster2]

He the type of player the old GM like a player who is always in trouble , he probably sign cheap and Jets do not have mach cap money , sign to a 1 year contract

[SenorGato]

Tannenbaum and a one year contract? He'd give this kid all the money.