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Jarvis Jones Given Clean Bill of Health From NFL Docs


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#26 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:07 PM


yeah and Coples shouldn't have made it to 16. At 9 it's a gamble worth taking.

At 9? It's entirely in question whether that's true. Coples didn't drop to 16 because of his physical health.

Edited by SenorGato, 13 February 2013 - 12:08 PM.

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#27 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

http://profootballta...ger-and-faster/


I was hoping it didn't exist at all, oh well.

Reasons he is not Maybin:

- LSU >>> Penn St
- SEC >>>> Big Ten
- He's taller
- 230 is still bigger than Maybin in college
- He's wider
- Movement skills go beyond being able to run in a straight line (better natural athlete)
- More experience (3 years vs 2)
- More hurries, PDs, and FFs in college
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#28 bitonti

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:15 PM

to be clear if Mingo runs a 4.45 and is there at 9, that's another gamble worth taking.  kinda hoping he's off the board tho. It's not crazy to predict he's the first DE taken. I believe Daniel Jeremiah had him going 2 to JAC. 


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#29 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:22 PM

**** Daniel Jeremiah.

Ted Scheckler's Draft Emporium said Mingo or Moore will be gifted to the Jets at 9 for throwing the game on Thanksgiving.

Edited by SenorGato, 13 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

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#30 HessStation

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

Mingo reportedly played the season less than 230 and is bulking up to 245 for Indy. Sound familiar?

As for Jarvis, he's not gonna be a combine freak. There's nothing about him in shorts that is amazing. he's kinda like Terrell Suggs in that respect. Tons of production, not a super rare athlete, and Suggs went around 10 if memory serves.


I think Suggs is a good comparison....optimistically speaking.
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#31 HessStation

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:28 PM

I was hoping it didn't exist at all, oh well.

Reasons he is not Maybin:

- LSU >>> Penn St
- SEC >>>> Big Ten
- He's taller
- 230 is still bigger than Maybin in college
- He's wider
- Movement skills go beyond being able to run in a straight line (better natural athlete)
- More experience (3 years vs 2)
- More hurries, PDs, and FFs in college


-underrated vs. the run too.
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#32 JetsFanInDenver

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:57 PM

Jarvis Jones can be great at his position. But these risk based picks never work out for the JETS. SO i hope someone bites on him before we do.


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#33 bitonti

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:58 PM

It will be interesting to see Mingo in linebacker drills. taking a true DE like Mingo and teaching him to play 3-4 outside linebacker, sometimes can take 3 seasons. Calvin Pace and Bryan Thomas had similar conversion times. Sometimes it can be faster like when Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed did it in 1-2 seasons... but those guys looked really natural in drills. 

 

Guys like Jarvis Jones (or Clay Matthews) don't have to be taught linebacker. 


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#34 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:36 PM

-underrated vs. the run too.

 

Word. 

 

Calvin Pace and Bryan Thomas had similar conversion times.

 

Both Pace and Thomas thrived their first seasons as LBers.

 

Sometimes it can be faster like when Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed did it in 1-2 seasons

 

Don't forget...and I'll write this list again and again:


DeMarcus Ware

Brian Orakpo

Ryan Kerrigan

Anthony Spencer

Shaun Phillips

Shawn Merriman

Terrell Suggs

Tamba Hali (once converted, but didn't open his career as a DE/OLB)

Justin Houston

Kamerion Wimbley

Koa Misi

Cameron Wake

Sam Acho

Mathias Kiwanuka (didn't open his career as an OLB THO)

Aldon Smith

 

 

 


Guys like Jarvis Jones (or Clay Matthews) don't have to be taught linebacker. 

 

 


No one is questioning his game. It is his physical health and ability to hold up in the league that is in question. Clay Matthews, like Quinton Coples, had no questions about his physical health in the short and long term. 

Edited by SenorGato, 13 February 2013 - 01:38 PM.

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#35 Bleedin Green

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

It will be interesting to see Mingo in linebacker drills. taking a true DE like Mingo and teaching him to play 3-4 outside linebacker, sometimes can take 3 seasons. Calvin Pace and Bryan Thomas had similar conversion times. Sometimes it can be faster like when Conner Barwin and Brooks Reed did it in 1-2 seasons... but those guys looked really natural in drills. 

 

Guys like Jarvis Jones (or Clay Matthews) don't have to be taught linebacker. 

 


While I do actually get and agree with your general point about conversions, I think Pace and Thomas are not really particularly good examples of that.  In both of their cases, they started off playing 4-3 DE and were considered colossal busts, finally having their "breakout" year when they switched over to the 3-4 (in both instances, their first year in the system).


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#36 bitonti

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

Don't forget...and I'll write this list again and again:

 

a list of 15 success stories doesn't nullify the dozens of failures and the hundreds who were never tried. It will come out in combine drills but to say Mingo will be a good or great OLB because of Aldon Smith... it's not relevant. some guys make the transition. Many others don't. It's riskier to take a college DE and convert him than it is to take a college DE and play him at DE. 


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#37 BroadwayJoe12

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

a list of 15 success stories doesn't nullify the dozens of failures and the hundreds who were never tried. It will come out in combine drills but to say Mingo will be a good or great OLB because of Aldon Smith... it's not relevant. some guys make the transition. Many others don't. It's riskier to take a college DE and convert him than it is to take a college DE and play him at DE. 

 

How is it that the success of players who have converted from DE to OLB not be deemed relevant, but the failures of others to make the same transition the gold standard?  The jump from college to the NFL is big regardless, but we aren't drafting these guys at 9th overall to drop back in coverage, you're drafting them to get after the quarterback.  Guys like Aldon Smith, Von Miller (who basically transition from LB to DE) and Irvin you know can get after the QB, so you allow them to do that until you trust them enough to be an every down backer.  I'd rather gamble on that than take someone who will just quietly set the edge, stop the run and never apply pressure...ever. 


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#38 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

a list of 15 success stories doesn't nullify the dozens of failures and the hundreds who were never tried. It will come out in combine drills but to say Mingo will be a good or great OLB because of Aldon Smith... it's not relevant. some guys make the transition. Many others don't. It's riskier to take a college DE and convert him than it is to take a college DE and play him at DE. 

 

What do the hundreds who never tried have to do with it? That seems completely irrelevant. 

 

Saying he will succeed because of Aldon Smith is as relevant is saying he will fail because others failed or didn't attempt the conversion. A DE prospect is a huge risk even staying at DE, the position is one of the toughest transitions from college to the NFL. If a guy can play football then the transition is not a big deal. Vernon Gholston's problem wasn't that they tried to make a DE into an OLB, it was that a garbage player cannot be made into a not garbage player. Remember all the talk about how he played that stupid elephant role in the OSU defense so it was less of a worry than other guys? That was gone fast. Same case for Maybin, a bad player who didn't become a starter but did up his production when asked to stand up and rush. Guys perceived as busts such as Pace, Thomas, Mike Vrabel, James Farrior (well as an ILB/OLB) and Harrison have saved their careers making the transition. Cameron Wake walked right into the league from friggin Canada and became one of the elites at the position. The transition aspect and it's perceived dangers are one of the most overblown aspects of the 3-4 OLB position. 9/10 guys who become anything at the position were college or NFL defensive ends who made the transition. Mingo isn't missing anything that would make you think he can't make the transition unless he's a lazy a$$hole or something. 


Edited by SenorGato, 13 February 2013 - 03:14 PM.

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#39 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

How is it that the success of players who have converted from DE to OLB not be deemed relevant, but the failures of others to make the same transition the gold standard?  The jump from college to the NFL is big regardless, but we aren't drafting these guys at 9th overall to drop back in coverage, you're drafting them to get after the quarterback.  Guys like Aldon Smith, Von Miller (who basically transition from LB to DE) and Irvin you know can get after the QB, so you allow them to do that until you trust them enough to be an every down backer.  I'd rather gamble on that than take someone who will just quietly set the edge, stop the run and never apply pressure...ever. 

 

Yep. Suggs, Merriman, Orakpo, Houston, and so on were all playing reduced roles as LBs until they matured as players. Merriman obviously fell apart, but the others all took off.

 

DeMarcus Ware is the only 3-4 OLB I can remember having all the duties of the position thrown at him from Day 1, and that is because Parcells and the Cowboys did their homework when picking him. 


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#40 bitonti

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:32 PM

  Mingo isn't missing anything that would make you think he can't make the transition unless he's a lazy a$$hole or something. 

 

my question with Mingo is if he's so damn athletic, running 4.45s and going against the other team's right tackles, why does he have half the career sacks as Jarvis Jones? it's like a Johnny Abe situation where sometimes he's red hot and other times he's a ghost. The production worries me.   Aldon Smith had 11 sacks in 1 year. Mingo has 13 for his career.  

 

none of this is to say I wouldn't take him at 9 but this player has flaws, just as Jarvis and others have flaws. 


Edited by bitonti, 13 February 2013 - 03:33 PM.

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#41 SenorGato

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:36 PM

John Abraham is worth the 9th pick in any draft. I agree Mingo has flaws but I don't agree with the extent they should be held against him. The production one is as close to it gets as a real flaw, but if you watch him play he's clearly one of the few game changing type talents in this draft. While it's nice to draft a guy for what he did in college because you're a little more sure, the fact is that teams are drafting guys on what they are going to do/can learn to do in the NFL. 


Edited by SenorGato, 13 February 2013 - 03:38 PM.

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#42 bitonti

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:57 AM

here are some relevant links... I really liked the quote about Mingo "drafting for potential" 

 

Can Mingo play OLB? 

http://www.nola.com/...draft_lsus.html

 

Dion Jordan profile

http://www.ohio.com/...ksEnabled=false


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#43 derp

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

I still think there's more questions about Jones than just his medical. How many 6'3, 241 3-4 OLB's do you see in the league? Apparently spinal stenosis makes it harder to hit the weights, will he be able to bulk up? He's not a big guy, already struggled vs the run in college. Gets a lot of his production either running around guys or on coverage sacks. Doesn't do a tremendous job disengaging from blockers. Nice motor, but that's not consistently getting you to the QB in the NFL. Played with a good supporting cast. Far from an elite athlete. Von Miller I got as a stud coming into the NFL when I watched him, just don't see it with Jones. He's good, but more of a right place right time guy than a dominant player.


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#44 SenorGato

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

I still think there's more questions about Jones than just his medical. How many 6'3, 241 3-4 OLB's do you see in the league? Apparently spinal stenosis makes it harder to hit the weights, will he be able to bulk up? He's not a big guy, already struggled vs the run in college. Gets a lot of his production either running around guys or on coverage sacks. Doesn't do a tremendous job disengaging from blockers. Nice motor, but that's not consistently getting you to the QB in the NFL. Played with a good supporting cast. Far from an elite athlete. Von Miller I got as a stud coming into the NFL when I watched him, just don't see it with Jones. He's good, but more of a right place right time guy than a dominant player.

 

Kinda agree with this, specifically because he's not an elite athlete AND he's injured. 


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#45 bitonti

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:44 AM

if Jarvis was a perfect prospect he goes top 3. IF he slips to 9 you can't let him pass. This whole discussion could be for naught as he's still probably a top 5 guy based on production in the SEC.  


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#46 SenorGato

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:06 AM

Why can't you let him pass at 9? Isn't the fact that he even makes it to 9 a major red flag for a guy who has put up his kind of numbers in the SEC? Wouldn't anyone who is a perfect prospect go top 3 since that person would be perfect? What if his back overrides his college production?

I like Jones a whole lot as a prospect but I don't get how it's possible to pretend that back isn't an issue.
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#47 bitonti

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:38 AM

 
I like Jones a whole lot as a prospect but I don't get how it's possible to pretend that back isn't an issue.

 

wanting a 10x pro bowler instead of a 3x pro bowler is counting chickens. Take the better prospect and let it play out. The (likely) alternative is to take a "high potential" guy with a perfect back who makes 0 pro bowls. 


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#48 SenorGato

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

Health plays significantly into what makes a guy a better prospect. I dont see why that needs to be brushed aside because you imagined I'm counting how many Pro Bowls #9 will make. There's a likely scenario where Jones never goes to a Pro Bowl and is out of the league in three years because physically his body won't hold up.

Greg Hardy was a beeeeeeeaaaaaast in college but fell to the 6th at least partially because of his significant injury history. None of Hardy's injuries will stick around like stenosis, and none affected the back and spine. Jones' fall won't be so dramatic maybe, but the more I think about it the less I feel he should be picked at 9.

Edited by SenorGato, 15 February 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#49 bitonti

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:55 AM

Health plays significantly into what makes a guy a better prospect. I dont see why that needs to be brushed aside because you imagined I'm counting how many Pro Bowls #9 will make. There's a likely scenario where Jones never goes to a Pro Bowl and is out of the league in three years because physically his body won't hold up.
 

 

I understand that risk and at 9, deem it acceptable. Again we are talking about a guy who goes 2 if he's clean. It's a value play at 9 and all of the prospects available at that spot will have questions. He really might not be there, so there's no sense in going to the mat on this issue. He very easily could go higher. Heck he still could go 2 even with the stenosis. FWIW michael irvin had this condition and performed at a really high level for a long time. 


Edited by bitonti, 15 February 2013 - 11:56 AM.

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#50 SenorGato

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

No lock Jones goes two if he's healthy. People like to say he's like Von Miller, but on top of monster production Miller was a freak athlete with an extremely high mental makeup. Also, the if game is dumb anyway. He fact is that he isn't healthy, he carries a back issue going into NFL football. You might as well slap a bullseye on him taking him so high (9) in the draft.

Edited by SenorGato, 15 February 2013 - 12:20 PM.

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