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What if Holmes goes on PUP list?


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49 replies to this topic

#1 Bugg

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:56 AM

Would that open up any cap room? Does that somehow make it any easier to get rid of him, or is his guarantee cast in stone? The jets' cap is effed no matter what, but it would be good to get rid of this guy.


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#2 #27TheDominator

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

I don't think the PUP list has any bearing on the salary cap.  It just opens up another roster spot.


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#3 T0mShane

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

If I'm reading nyjetscap.com correctly, Holmes' cap hit is $11,250,000 if he's not on the team.
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#4 j4jets

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

If I'm reading nyjetscap.com correctly, Holmes' cap hit is $11,250,000 if he's not on the team.

True. HIs base is guaranteed, plus another $3.75mil for his remaining portion of the signing bonus. 7.5 + 3.75 = 11.25


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#5 stoicsentry

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:11 AM

Why would we want to get rid of him when he's the most talented skill position player on our offense? I don't care if he's a diva, most WR's are...


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#6 whodeawhodat

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

Why would we want to get rid of him when he's the most talented skill position player on our offense? I don't care if he's a diva, most WR's are...

+1


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#7 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:27 AM

If he was going to miss about half the season anyway, followed by an unknown number of weeks of him getting his sea legs, I think they'd just cut him and wipe the slate clean of him for 2014.


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#8 T0mShane

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:31 AM

Rex said this morning that Holmes won't be doing any work until Week One.
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#9 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:32 AM

Rex said this morning that Holmes won't be doing any work until Week One.

 

Define "work" please, Rex.


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#10 #27TheDominator

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

I wonder which PUP they will use.  If he isn't working until week 1 they will PUP him for sure.  Last year they added that PUP that you can be restored from.  Used to be that you had to wait until week 7 or something.  It isn't going to have any cap ramifications.  They might not cut him even if he is done because they probably don't want the extra cap hit this year, especially if they trade Revis and have to deal with that accelerated bonus.  They will at least wait until they see what they have/need.


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#11 flgreen

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

If he can’t play, and that is a very real possibility with this injury, there would be no point in cutting him.  As Dom pointed out, with the $13,000,000 cap hit from the Revis trade, they just couldn’t afford it.

 

It's very possible he will never be the same again


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#12 Greenseed4

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

Sounds like he's on our roster no matter what.  If he's playable he'll play, if not, he'll sit on the PUP/IR for the year.


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#13 bitonti

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:08 PM

it's a nasty injury. Lis Franc fracture, it's possible he doesn't come back at all. 


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#14 j4jets

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:08 PM

If he was going to miss about half the season anyway, followed by an unknown number of weeks of him getting his sea legs, I think they'd just cut him and wipe the slate clean of him for 2014.

 

Cutting him saves nothing for 2014. It will result in a  net Cap hit, if Jets had that space to begin with. That cap space would be carried forward to 2014 if they don't cut him. It has ZERO affect. Infact, it will have a negative affect since now you'd have to sign another player to replace him, even if its an undrafted rookie, dipping further into Jets cap space.


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#15 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:48 PM

Cutting him saves nothing for 2014. It will result in a  net Cap hit, if Jets had that space to begin with. That cap space would be carried forward to 2014 if they don't cut him. It has ZERO affect. Infact, it will have a negative affect since now you'd have to sign another player to replace him, even if its an undrafted rookie, dipping further into Jets cap space.

 

I don't think so.

 

Holmes was paid a signing bonus.  The cap hit for that signing bonus is spread out over the life of the contact if both parties see the contract to its natural end (as you're aware).  If he is cut, then the amortized portions of that bonus that would have hit in 2014 and beyond accelerate to 2013.  After 2013 his contract would be off the books.  Therefore there is a savings to the cap in 2014 (assuming he's cut then rather than paying him $9M or whatever he's due next year).

 

You bring up the space it would cost (presumably you're talking about 2013) to bring in someone else to take his place.  But if he's put on the PUP list, which is what I was responding to, and they have reason to have reservations as to how useful he'll be in the immediate weeks after that, then it's not all that much different for half the season or more.  We'd still need a starting WR for the first half of the season, and this would have a negative effect you speak of.


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#16 HessStation

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:04 PM

Can't decide on worst contract ever, Holmes, Harris or Sanchez.
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#17 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:14 PM

Can't decide on worst contract ever, Holmes, Harris or Sanchez.

 

Because it's Gholston.


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#18 #27TheDominator

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

Pennington, Martin, the list goes on...


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#19 HessStation

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

Because it's Gholston.


That was a draft pick, which I was thinking as different.
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#20 nycdan

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

Might not seem like it but every team has their share.  Except that the Redskins have several shares when you factor in Haynseworth, Sanders and McNabb.  Oh and the Raiders have represented well so we have to pay homage to them.  Jets are probably midde-of the-road when all is said and done.


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Let's go eat a god damned snack!

#21 j4jets

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:33 PM

I don't think so.

 

Holmes was paid a signing bonus.  The cap hit for that signing bonus is spread out over the life of the contact if both parties see the contract to its natural end (as you're aware).  If he is cut, then the amortized portions of that bonus that would have hit in 2014 and beyond accelerate to 2013.  After 2013 his contract would be off the books.  Therefore there is a savings to the cap in 2014 (assuming he's cut then rather than paying him $9M or whatever he's due next year).

 

You bring up the space it would cost (presumably you're talking about 2013) to bring in someone else to take his place.  But if he's put on the PUP list, which is what I was responding to, and they have reason to have reservations as to how useful he'll be in the immediate weeks after that, then it's not all that much different for half the season or more.  We'd still need a starting WR for the first half of the season, and this would have a negative effect you speak of.

 

For argument sake, I'll simplify some of numbers.

 

Holmes will make $5mil in base for the next 3 years and carries a $5 mil prorated portion of the signing bonus each year. (again, all number are solely for arguments sake).

Jets are counting Holmes for $10 against the cap this year and have $10 mil cap space left by the end of the year.

NFL cap is set at $100 mil in 2014. Jets adjusted cap space would be $100 mil plus 10 mil it saved from 2013, total $110 mil.

 

If Jets release Holmes in 2013, they will endure a $10mil cap hit, diminishing their entire cap space and thus would have no carry forward towards 2014, resulting in their adjusted cap space to be exactly $100 mil.

If Jets release Holmes in 2014 when their adjust cap would be $110 mil, With 2 years still on his contract, he will count for $10 mil in dead money, resulting in usable cap space to $100 mil.

 

Either way, the net effect on the cap is the same, except, we would now be a player short in 2013. That is why it is in the Jets best interest to keep Holmes AND Sanchez in 2013. They both represent the exact same issue. Bart Scott and Pace had the same issue with their contracts except the NFL did not have carryforward rules at the time


Edited by j4jets, 19 March 2013 - 03:35 PM.

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#22 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:37 PM

That was a draft pick, which I was thinking as different.

 

Oh I thought they gave draft picks contracts, silly me.


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#23 HessStation

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:46 PM


Oh I thought they gave draft picks contracts, silly me.

u dumbass.
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#24 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:50 PM

u dumbass.

 

Stop trying to get me banned yo!


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#25 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

For argument sake, I'll simplify some of numbers.

 

Holmes will make $5mil in base for the next 3 years and carries a $5 mil prorated portion of the signing bonus each year. (again, all number are solely for arguments sake).

Jets are counting Holmes for $10 against the cap this year and have $10 mil cap space left by the end of the year.

NFL cap is set at $100 mil in 2014. Jets adjusted cap space would be $100 mil plus 10 mil it saved from 2013, total $110 mil.

 

If Jets release Holmes in 2013, they will endure a $10mil cap hit, diminishing their entire cap space and thus would have no carry forward towards 2014, resulting in their adjusted cap space to be exactly $100 mil.

If Jets release Holmes in 2014 when their adjust cap would be $110 mil, With 2 years still on his contract, he will count for $10 mil in dead money, resulting in usable cap space to $100 mil.

 

Either way, the net effect on the cap is the same, except, we would now be a player short in 2013. That is why it is in the Jets best interest to keep Holmes AND Sanchez in 2013. They both represent the exact same issue. Bart Scott and Pace had the same issue with their contracts except the NFL did not have carryforward rules at the time

 

Obviously the net effect on the cap is the same long-term.  When did I say it wasn't? What I said in my original post is (since I think there's a good chance he is off the team in 2014 anyway, certainly at the salary he's due), then let the full must-hit amount accelerate to 2013 instead of carrying over to 2014.  I don't see what the controversy is.  

 

Even if the net hit on bonus/guaranteed money is the same, I would rather preserve 2014 space at the expense of 2013 space.  If you don't agree, fine.  But cutting him now as opposed to after the season saves cap space in 2014, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

 

And if it's the extra WR needed to sign that you're worrying about, if Holmes is on the PUP list the Jets will have to sign someone else worthy of starting for the first month & a half of the season (or however long that is) anyway.  Plus there is a good chance that Holmes will not be as productive the week he gets back as he would a month after he's back and we also will need this other WR to start for the first couple of weeks after Holmes returns.  

 

So unless that new ("temporary") starting WR is on a contract that we can terminate the moment Holmes is back in the rotation, we're going to be on the hook for his full year's salary anyway.  In that case, the only net loss of cap space during the season is the player occupying the 53rd (likely not guaranteed) salary spot for that span of time who will then be off our top-53 when Holmes comes back.  If it's half the season, you're talking about $200K give or take with the minimum full-season salary at $405K.  While that is technically a net loss of cap space, with a cap in excess of $120M that's a rounding error.


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