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Coples as an OLB? Is Rex desparate or clueless here?


Barton

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Tom Shane getting smacked around is awesome!!!

Rex has had a limited amount of picks. 2 of his 4 we've actually seen play were in the 30 range and he did find/develop a pro bowler, he's just got robbed last season.

Also, there is no harm in playing players at different positions. So they learn a different position? How's that bad? He can just put him back where he's natural with no harm done. This OLB for Q is getting way to much attention. It's like, not a big deal. Good coaches find ways to get their best players on the field.

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Rex has had a limited amount of picks. 2 of his 4 we've actually seen play were in the 30 range and he did find/develop a pro bowler, he's just got robbed last season.

Yeah, it's shameful how few resources have been dedicated to the defense since Rex got here.

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Woke up about twenty minutes ago, opened this thread, had only the vaguest recollection of screaming about Rex Ryan at 3:50 a.m. on a message board. Really need to reevaluate where my life is.

That said, you Rex apologists are exactly like the Herm apologists in his last days, and it'll be amusing watching you people turn on Rex ex post facto the same way to rolled over on Herm.

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Yeah, it's shameful how few resources have been dedicated to the defense since Rex got here.

I'm on the phone or I'd do the research on this but the majority of Rex's drafts have been used on offense, trades and FAs too.

I've battled this correctly about 100 times when people claim he's ignored the offense. That's false. Like you. They just haven't worked out.

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Woke up about twenty minutes ago, opened this thread, had only the vaguest recollection of screaming about Rex Ryan at 3:50 a.m. on a message board. Really need to reevaluate where my life is.

That said, you Rex apologists are exactly like the Herm apologists in his last days, and it'll be amusing watching you people turn on Rex ex post facto the same way to rolled over on Herm.

You do need reevaluate. Nobody appologies for Rex. This whole board hates him except me.. You're just saying stupid sh*t.

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You do need reevaluate. Nobody appologies for Rex. This whole board hates him except me.. You're just saying stupid sh*t.

If you're the only one saying something, wouldn't that make you the stupid sh*t? Who are you on the phone with, btw?

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Woke up about twenty minutes ago, opened this thread, had only the vaguest recollection of screaming about Rex Ryan at 3:50 a.m. on a message board. Really need to reevaluate where my life is.

That said, you Rex apologists are exactly like the Herm apologists in his last days, and it'll be amusing watching you people turn on Rex ex post facto the same way to rolled over on Herm.

Big, big difference between Rex and Herm and you know it. Herm is a clown on TV now, because that's the best job he can get - ever. He will never coach football again. He'll never be spoken about as a potential football coach. Ditto Mangini, who was maybe qualified to be a quality assistant coach when Belichick promoted him to DC.

Rex, OTOH, will -at a bare minimum- be a defensive coordinator in the NFL for as long as he wants to be one. And he'll be very good at it, too.

That said, I have to hand it to you. You're playing this like the skilled political operative you are; attacking Rex's strengths. You'll get the polls swinging in your favor in no time. Sperm's just throwing facts around. No one pays any attention to facts. Vitriol, that's what wins these debates. :)

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I think Shane's point is that its more than fair to question Rex's logic with this Coples move. His track record in developing defensive talent as the Jets Head Coach is nothing more than average.

 

And seriously, how many scouts made write ups on Coples being a potential 3-4 OLB? It is not his skillset. The idea of Coples covering a TE is laughable.

 

It may or may not work. But the point here is that its fair to question Rex.

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I think Shane's point is that its more than fair to question Rex's logic with this Coples move. His track record in developing defensive talent as the Jets Head Coach is nothing more than average.

 

And seriously, how many scouts made write ups on Coples being a potential 3-4 OLB? It is not his skillset. The idea of Coples covering a TE is laughable.

 

It may or may not work. But the point here is that its fair to question Rex.

 

while I agree with you on your Coples assessment I dont think he will be used as an every down OLB I do not think thats Rex's intentions. He will be used in passing down primarily as a pass rusher in no way will he be covering TE's in any capacity unless he loses 50 pounds and lets just pray Rex did not ask yet another player to mess with his weight.

 

personally I think Coples is a DT along with Richardson and I think the Jets should sport a front 4 more often than not. with Wilerson DE Coples DT Richardson DT Insert DE   and run it in a rotation with Ellis giving breaks to Copeles and Richardson as needed rotating the DE spot in running/Passing downs would be a good idea as well but no need to rotate Wilkerson much he plays both run and pass well.

 

I like the front 4 better because it gives the players a chance to work the OL with moves during a game and make it more of a chess match than just beating them with brut strength or speed which is not easy to do.

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I think Shane's point is that its more than fair to question Rex's logic with this Coples move. His track record in developing defensive talent as the Jets Head Coach is nothing more than average.

 

And seriously, how many scouts made write ups on Coples being a potential 3-4 OLB? It is not his skillset. The idea of Coples covering a TE is laughable.

 

It may or may not work. But the point here is that its fair to question Rex.

You can question him all you want, but ranting about it in May before you've even read one little snippet from the Jet hating press about what Coples looks like and/or what his job is as an OLB is a wee bit premature, IMHO. The man is trying to figure out the best way to get Wilkerson, Richardson, and Coples all on the field at the same - while also improving the pass rush. A noble endeavor. As long as he's not asking Coples to change his body (a la Herm and Ellis), I'm pretty content to let Rex tinker.

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Big, big difference between Rex and Herm and you know it. Herm is a clown on TV now, because that's the best job he can get - ever. He will never coach football again. He'll never be spoken about as a potential football coach. Ditto Mangini, who was maybe qualified to be a quality assistant coach when Belichick promoted him to DC.

Rex, OTOH, will -at a bare minimum- be a defensive coordinator in the NFL for as long as he wants to be one. And he'll be very good at it, too.

That said, I have to hand it to you. You're playing this like the skilled political operative you are; attacking Rex's strengths. You'll get the polls swinging in your favor in no time. Sperm's just throwing facts around. No one pays any attention to facts. Vitriol, that's what wins these debates. :)

 

 

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You can question him all you want, but ranting about it in May before you've even read one little snippet from the Jet hating press about what Coples looks like and/or what his job is as an OLB is a wee bit premature, IMHO. The man is trying to figure out the best way to get Wilkerson, Richardson, and Coples all on the field at the same - while also improving the pass rush. A noble endeavor. As long as he's not asking Coples to change his body (a la Herm and Ellis), I'm pretty content to let Rex tinker.

 

Not giving fat Boy a pass on this ....hes drafted 4 DT types in the past 3 drafts and now all of a sudden its OMG how am I going to use em ??? Ill tell ya what every great 3-4 defense is based around great LBS and the elite ones have some DL as well ....Ravens and 85 bears come to mind with great DL men in addition to great LB's ....Rex has chosen to ignore the LB position and when we did Draft a LB we drafted a 230 pound LB who really does not fit the scheme of a 3-4 defense since ILB in the 3-4 MUST take on guards regularly. Say all you want about Rex's genius and his eye on talent but they guy is NOT making logical decisions. Everyone uses the excuse (which is very easy to do) by saying Rex is unconventional and thats fine but there comes a point where that does not cut it.

 

In todays NFL where teams are starting to attack the middle of the field with TE's you better have a freakin LB with speed and a long wing span to cover those TE's currently we have NONE. Harris is a traditional ILB in the 3-4 and he excells vs the run everyone else on this LB squad is either a career back up or a washed up Calvin Pace. yet drafting 4 freakin DT with the top picks in the last 3 drafts makes sense ?

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You'll forgive me if I'm not convinced that Rex turned Revis or Ngata into great players, or that Will Demps, Dawan Landry, and a bunch of jags like Marques Douglass are proof of Rex's coaching greatness. (Antonio Allen and Kenrick Ellis?) He did take Devito, Pouha, Gregg, and Kemoeatu and turned them into stout run defenders, which goes on the résumé, for sure, but that shows that he knows how to get gritty guys to...be gritty defensive tackles? The Ravens won the Super Bowl last year with their 3rd and 4th corners starting, and with draftees like Paul Kruger, Courtney Upshaw, and Dannel Ellerbe playing major roles. Maybe Baltimore just produces better mid- to late-round talent than anyone else, and that Rex had very little to do with it?

Again, Rex is a fine defensive coach with a fine defensive system, and I'm not disparaging his ability there. He's just wildly overrated as far as gurus go.

 

Much of the reason for your criticism is that you blindly assume great players would have been just as great if they'd only had mediocre coaching.  If Coples had been moved to LB and worked out there, while in Baltimore, it seems you'd say well duh that Coples was a stud there and Rex had little to do with it. 

 

So what would convince you? It seems there is no convincing you, since there have been high drafted players, mid-drafted players, and undrafted players all pan out big-time while he was coaching them.

 

I tend think the opposite of what you do as his defensive coaching goes.  I think he's better at teaching than he is at developing strategy.  I've seen enough clips of him going over technique with a myriad of players, getting very detailed about it, and those are just little snippets in front of the camera.  

 

Conversely, if his strength was strategy it is my opinion that he wouldn't be such a train wreck on the offensive side of the ball and would instantly shoo away terrible offensive gameplans that he'd find so easy to defend if he were the opponent.  That isn't the case, though.  Our offensive gameplans - as well as who we hand the car keys to on offense, plus development of offensive talent - haven't been too marvelous.  

 

Though people only seem to point to Rex's personality, this is probably at least as much of the reason Rex was passed over in Baltimore.  Ozzie isn't just a GM; he's an ex-player and an ex-offensive-player.

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Not giving fat Boy a pass on this ....hes drafted 4 DT types in the past 3 drafts and now all of a sudden its OMG how am I going to use em ???

I don't entirely buy into the premise that Rex was behind the drafts when Tannenbaum was here, and I definitely don't believe he had much -if any- input into this year's draft. The new GM gave him the gift of an athletic DT, and now it's Rex's job to get the most out of the talent he has available to him.

I'd expect the Coples to OLB experiment to be pretty limited in scope, and that if it's not paying dividends early, it'll likely be scrapped. When the season rolls around, I expect Coples to have his hand in the AstroTurf more often than not.

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Cromartie (caught a sh*tload of picks his first season starting with SD and had been pretty ordinary ever since.  Until Ryan got a hold of him; now he's one of the NFL's few shutdown corners and he even tackles now)

 

 

 

 

 

 

First of all do you really think Rex had a say with the Ravens ? That team was full of hall of famers when Rex moved into his positions as DL/DC . Ozzie made those picks not Rex. Theres a reason the Ravens did not make Rex the HC and brougt in John Harbaugh. because harbaugh has a brain and knows how to MANAGE a fiitball team Rex has no clue. So while he may be a good DC and DL coach he lacks the Brains for what we need him for and thats to be the head coach of the WHOLE football team, not half of it or one thrid of it.

 

When it comes to Cromartie saying he tackles now is laughable. Ive seen him make a few hits last year on players in compromising positions in relation to him but if a RB is heading towards Cro with a full head of steam dont expect much at all. He will either crumble or avoid the contact any way he can. A few hits does not make a tackler ... Revis was a tackler, Cro will never be one . You also listed Cromartie as being here when Rex arrived and he was not.

 

Rex came to the Jets and we had Above average talent here. He also brought Leonhard, Douglas and Scott to help on every tier of the defense. Every year the defense has started to drop off and they have never stepped up in a big moment. They put up the stats but many times can't shut games down or get off the field on 3rd down. They are certainly NOT the Ravens by any stretch not even close.

 

You bring up the draft picks and say that the Jets have only drafted 2 defensive players per the last few years but those picks happen to be 4 defensive lineman in rounds 1 and 2 the past 4 years while impact skill players go undrafted on this team until the 4th + rounds. Only one that comes to mind is Stephen Hill in round 2 last year. Im certain Rex has little input on offensive moves since the Idiot constantly proclaims his ignorance on that side of the ball. The only good skill player added to this team in yearrrrrs is Jeremy Kerley and hes a nice player but hes not turning the league upside down either. 

 

Most teams that make it to, or have the talent to compete in the AFCCG should never drop off as fast as we did. After years 1 and 2 this team was a few skill players away from getting to a SB .... Who did we bring in ?

 

Year 2 -- Santonio Holmes - Pitt thought so much of him they basically dumped him for a 5th rounder --- Known Loudmouth

Year 3 -- Plaxico Burress - Fresh out of jail and 34 years old -- Jets do not re sign nor does anyone else --- Known Loudmouth 

Year 3 -- Derrick Mason - Loud mouth trouble maker 38 years old who Rex claimed would have 90 receptions yet he was released in week 4 --- Known Loudmouth

Year 3 -- Did not Sign Braylon Edwards --- Who was certainly trouble off the field but did have a good on the field relationship with our young QB. Certainly was not shooting himself in the leg at a night club. 

 

Lets use the Ravens as an example ...this team has been close for many years. They know they have a good defense so they set their sights on improving the offense and the skill players on that side of the ball. They actully tried until they hit it and won the SB the key to that SB and probably the most important move was bringing in Anquan Boldin who played lights out in the playoffs and they won it all. Boldin is a damn good WR and a good lockerroom guy ... The Ravens also did a great job handling Joe Flacco getting him Ray Rice and other Skill players on offense to help his growth as a QB.

 

The Jets in a similar situation with a very good defense and a few offensive players away from truly contending for a SB bring in IDIOTS and HAS BEENS and expect the same results and Its been laughable for the past 4 years and everyone seems to get this. Its the real reason we have the clown label.

 

Bottom Line --- The Ravens did it right ....The Jets did it wrong under Rex Ryans so called watch. They continue to do it wrong.

 

This team needs LB's and Safeties to which are the biggest holes on our defense so Rex Drafts yet another DT in this years draft ??????????? Dumps Revis (understandable to some extent) and Signs a rookie with Imnjury Problems and 5 surgeries in the past 3 years ???????  Im OK with Geno Smith and I hope he can really make a difference but who the **** is he throwing the ball too ? Certainly its about time we got some explosive RB's but neither one has shown the durability to make us rest easy .

 

I think Idzik stayed true to his board so I wont push to hard aganist the Richardson pick and he deserves the benifit of the doubt at least until year 3. But Im concerned about how our defense is being built and how our offense has been neglected, are we oncourse to ruin another QB ?

 

Yes, I do think he had say with the Ravens.  Otherwise they would have cut bait with him instead of promoting him to DC.  It is silly to think they thought lowly of him as a defensive coach with the "proof" being that they didn't make him their HC.  He was their DL for half a decade, and after that time they decided to promote him to a position he'd still hold there if the Jets (or someone else) hadn't hired him as HC.

 

Dumping Revis was more than understandable "to some extent" since there was exactly 1 NFL team willing to pass up on a 1st rounder + a 3rd rounder + 16M/year in cap room for the privilege of Revis on their teams.  Cromartie isn't a run-stopping beast, but he tackles a fuckload more now than he did before Rex got a hold of him.  Or do you think that is coincidence?

 

Rex is not the GM.  Idzik is.  While I'm sure Rex has some input, the decision is clearly Idzik's alone.  There is no way Rex would be ok with letting Moore & Slauson hit free agency (Moore in particular), and then sign 2 other veterans while using three consecutive draft picks on the OL.  There is no way on God's green earth that this is Rex's doing.  I believe that Milliner and Richardson were the 2 highest players on his board and that's why Idzik took them.  It had little to do with Rex pulling the strings.  Rex has also been in love with Sanchez to the point where he got that ridiculous tattoo on his arm.  So I don't think Rex wanted Geno Smith either.

 

The man behind the man is not Rex Ryan.  The guy is at least 50/50 to get fired at the end of the year so it is not believable that Idzik - in his first stint as a GM and handed a pretty crappy scenario - gave Rex control over his two highest draft selections and took the later ones for himself.  That is lazy thinking just because you saw a CB and a DT get drafted.

 

Rex has shortcomings, but quite famously he got ONE draft pick per year with Tannenbaum and as a dead man walking I doubt very much he got any with Idzik.  You are blaming Rex for his GM's moves.  That GM has been fired.

 

I find it amusing that you have no tolerance for a head coach who, at least on the defensive side of the ball, is thought of well throughout the league.  Yet you have endless tolerance for Mark Sanchez who the whole league and the whole country knows is a joke who can barely throw a football straight.

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"Ryan voiced his displeasure with 2012 first-round pick Coples, who Ryan said at the end of last season would be one of the team's breakout players in 2013. Apparently Ryan wants to see more commitment to conditioning from the massive defensive lineman after observing him Thursday."

 

We're getting into full swing Jet-mode early.  Nothing like an oversized, out of shape fat guy at OLB. 

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Yes, I do think he had say with the Ravens.  Otherwise they would have cut bait with him instead of promoting him to DC.  It is silly to think they thought lowly of him as a defensive coach with the "proof" being that they didn't make him their HC.  He was their DL for half a decade, and after that time they decided to promote him to a position he'd still hold there if the Jets (or someone else) hadn't hired him as HC.

 

Dumping Revis was more than understandable "to some extent" since there was exactly 1 NFL team willing to pass up on a 1st rounder + a 3rd rounder + 16M/year in cap room for the privilege of Revis on their teams.  Cromartie isn't a run-stopping beast, but he tackles a fuckload more now than he did before Rex got a hold of him.  Or do you think that is coincidence?

 

Rex is not the GM.  Idzik is.  While I'm sure Rex has some input, the decision is clearly Idzik's alone.  There is no way Rex would be ok with letting Moore & Slauson hit free agency (Moore in particular), and then sign 2 other veterans while using three consecutive draft picks on the OL.  There is no way on God's green earth that this is Rex's doing.  I believe that Milliner and Richardson were the 2 highest players on his board and that's why Idzik took them.  It had little to do with Rex pulling the strings.  Rex has also been in love with Sanchez to the point where he got that ridiculous tattoo on his arm.  So I don't think Rex wanted Geno Smith either.

 

The man behind the man is not Rex Ryan.  The guy is at least 50/50 to get fired at the end of the year so it is not believable that Idzik - in his first stint as a GM and handed a pretty crappy scenario - gave Rex control over his two highest draft selections and took the later ones for himself.  That is lazy thinking just because you saw a CB and a DT get drafted.

 

Rex has shortcomings, but quite famously he got ONE draft pick per year with Tannenbaum and as a dead man walking I doubt very much he got any with Idzik.  You are blaming Rex for his GM's moves.  That GM has been fired.

 

I find it amusing that you have no tolerance for a head coach who, at least on the defensive side of the ball, is thought of well throughout the league.  Yet you have endless tolerance for Mark Sanchez who the whole league and the whole country knows is a joke who can barely throw a football straight.

 

Sperm I pretty much agree with all you have said here it basically is the same thing I said. On the case of what power Rex has via the draft or personnell decisions Im pretty sure thats a big gray area that we will never know the true answer to.

 

In the case of Idzik Im not sure on a team with 4 possible starting DT's he would draft another without a big input from Rex. Also on Rex;s one draft pick he grabbed the incredible John Conner I find it hard to believe that was his only input in that draft . Teams stick to their draft board to an extent, you cant make early picks in the top 15 in an area thats already strong and neglect areas of need, at some point you have to deviate from your board and I think at pick 13 the Jets could have went in numerous directions of need instead of grabbing yet another DT.

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Sperm I pretty much agree with all you have said here it basically is the same thing I said. On the case of what power Rex has via the draft or personnell decisions Im pretty sure thats a big gray area that we will never know the true answer to.

 

In the case of Idzik Im not sure on a team with 4 possible starting DT's he would draft another without a big input from Rex. Also on Rex;s one draft pick he grabbed the incredible John Conner I find it hard to believe that was his only input in that draft . Teams stick to their draft board to an extent, you cant make early picks in the top 15 in an area thats already strong and neglect areas of need, at some point you have to deviate from your board and I think at pick 13 the Jets could have went in numerous directions of need instead of grabbing yet another DT.

 

I guarantee Rex has some input into who he likes just as 31 other head coaches have input with their GMs.

 

Idzik said he was going purely on who he had rated highest on his board regardless of position.  He said it over and over.  If anything, selecting Richardson should convince you of just that. 

 

Instead you (and many others, just to show I'm not only pointing fingers your way) have come up with the theory that this lame duck HC, coming off a garbage season, who has mountains of bad and embarrassing press coverage, is the power behind the throne of a GM who has finally gotten his chance.

 

When we made the pick, absolutely my initial reaction was also WTF do we need 4 DT's for (3 of them drafted in round 1, another drafted in round 3, all taken in the past 3 drafts)? Well we'll see.  Clearly it can work out to have Richardson and Ellis at DT with Wilkerson and Coples at end.  My guess is, as others have written, we're going to see a lot of just that.  Coples will have a hand in the dirt sometimes and stand upright sometimes. The latter will allow the pass rush to come from the other OLB spot now & then to mix things up and make things more difficult for the offense to plan against. Or I think that's the idea anyway.  But I doubt Coples is going to be a typical OLB.  He was drafted to rush the passer, and rush the passer he will.  Rex just wants the opportunity to have him do it in multiple ways.  When BB tries to make players more versatile he's called a genius; if Rex tries it he's a moron.

This will work out or it won't. 

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I guarantee Rex has some input into who he likes just as 31 other head coaches have input with their GMs.

 

Idzik said he was going purely on who he had rated highest on his board regardless of position.  He said it over and over.  If anything, selecting Richardson should convince you of just that. 

 

Instead you (and many others, just to show I'm not only pointing fingers your way) have come up with the theory that this lame duck HC, coming off a garbage season, who has mountains of bad and embarrassing press coverage, is the power behind the throne of a GM who has finally gotten his chance.

 

When we made the pick, absolutely my initial reaction was also WTF do we need 4 DT's for (3 of them drafted in round 1, another drafted in round 3, all taken in the past 3 drafts)? Well we'll see.  Clearly it can work out to have Richardson and Ellis at DT with Wilkerson and Coples at end.  My guess is, as others have written, we're going to see a lot of just that.  Coples will have a hand in the dirt sometimes and stand upright sometimes. The latter will allow the pass rush to come from the other OLB spot now & then to mix things up and make things more difficult for the offense to plan against. Or I think that's the idea anyway.  But I doubt Coples is going to be a typical OLB.  He was drafted to rush the passer, and rush the passer he will.  Rex just wants the opportunity to have him do it in multiple ways.  When BB tries to make players more versatile he's called a genius; if Rex tries it he's a moron.

This will work out or it won't. 

 

Only problem I have with Coples and Wilk playing DE in a traditional 4-3 is do they have the quickness to excel on the the outside ? Coples didnt have it in college since he did much better at DT than he did at DE and Wilkerson is already 315. IMO Offensive tackles would welcome the slower bigger guy they can easily push to the outside. What beats most good Offensive tackles is speed not strength and Im not sure either guy has the speed to be a consistent pass rusher on the outside. Now a LB with speed can open up a lot of things but we dont have one. The one we do have weighs 230 and plays on the inside. Its a weird situation and While I know Idzik said he was sticking to his board at some point with early first round picks you have to deviate a bit.

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Much of the reason for your criticism is that you blindly assume great players would have been just as great if they'd only had mediocre coaching.

If this is in reference to Revis and Ngata, I am blindly presuming that they would be great players with or without Rex because they're both elite physical specimens who had a desire to be great players. Great players emerge under null coaches all the time. Arizona produced Darnell Dockett and Pat Peterson. The Jaguars produced MJD. The Chargers produced a bunch of great players under the Schottenheimers and Norv Turners of the world. I just can't buy that it was Rex's presence that caused Revis and Ngata. Rex likes to mention how he resurrected Terrell Suggs' career. Terrell Suggs had 12 sacks as a rookie with a pick and five forced fumbles. But Rex saved him?

If Coples had been moved to LB and worked out there, while in Baltimore, it seems you'd say well duh that Coples was a stud there and Rex had little to do with it.

I don't think that's the position I've been presenting, but who knows? I'm not all there. I reference Baltimore because they annually develop defensive talent with and without Rex, and that Rex's record of doing that with the Jets hasn't been nearly as impressive. He got a lot out of Pouha, and Wilkerson looks like he'll be really good. If Coples moves to OLB this year and gets 10 sacks, I'll scream from the rooftops about what a great move it was by Rex. As of today, it seems dodgy to mess around with an obviously talented player who has a reputation for not working. Why not just go get a real OLB and let Coples come off the bench at DE and DT? Especially if we start hearing about Coples being asked to get down to 265 or some such, it just seems like an unnecessary exercise.

So what would convince you? It seems there is no convincing you, since there have been high drafted players, mid-drafted players, and undrafted players all pan out big-time while he was coaching them.

My entire point of contention is that Rex's record with player development, especially as it relates to the Jets, doesn't lend itself to irreproachable status. This whole thing began with posters giving Rex the "benefit of the doubt, etc etc." I disagreed.

As far as what would be cool to see from the Rex regime, I'd love to see Demario Davis turn out to be a ten-year starter here. It'd be neat if Coples turned into a double-digit sacker at OLB. If Kyle Wilson doesn't have to finger-wag at players who beat him down the sidelines by five yards. If Kenrick Ellis becomes Pouha. If Bush turns into a non-liability on the back end. When a few oif these things happen, I'll revisit my perspective on Rex's record. As of right now, though, that record isn't worthy of this Rex mythos that seems to surround him amongst some Jets fans.

I tend think the opposite of what you do as his defensive coaching goes. I think he's better at teaching than he is at developing strategy. I've seen enough clips of him going over technique with a myriad of players, getting very detailed about it, and those are just little snippets in front of the camera.

Conversely, if his strength was strategy it is my opinion that he wouldn't be such a train wreck on the offensive side of the ball and would instantly shoo away terrible offensive gameplans that he'd find so easy to defend if he were the opponent. That isn't the case, though. Our offensive gameplans - as well as who we hand the car keys to on offense, plus development of offensive talent - haven't been too marvelous.

Though people only seem to point to Rex's personality, this is probably at least as much of the reason Rex was passed over in Baltimore. Ozzie isn't just a GM; he's an ex-player and an ex-offensive-player.

This is a really interesting take, and a good one. The only thing I'd offer is that Rex's defenses are consistently better than the sum of their parts, which I attribute to scheme as opposed to individual player contribution. Hell, they lost Revis from the defense and it still performed, with a stiff replacing him, which I also attributed to scheme. Of course, when the scheme/gameplan gets figured out, you get 94-yard Tebow drives and 40 point beatdowns at the hands of the Pats.

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If this is in reference to Revis and Ngata, I am blindly presupposing that they would be great players with or without Rex because they're both elite physical specimens who had a desire to be great players. Great players emerge under null coaches all the time. Arizona produced Darnell Dockett and Pat Peterson. The Jaguars produced MJD. The Chargers produced a bunch of great players under the Schottenheimers and Norv Turners of the world. I just can't buy that it was Rex's presence that caused Revis and Ngata. Rex likes to mention how he resurrected Terrell Suggs' career. Terrell Suggs had 12 sacks as a rookie with a pick and five forced fumbles. But Rex saved him?

I don't think that's the position I've been presenting, but who knows? I'm not all there. I reference Baltimore because they annually develop defensive talent with and without Rex, and that Rex's record of doing that with the Jets hasn't been nearly as impressive. He got a lot out of Pouha and Wilkerson looks like he'll be really good. If Coples moves to OLB this year and gets 10 sacks, I'll scream from the rooftops about what a great move it was by Rex. As of today, it seems dodgy to mess around with an obviously talented player who has a reputation for not working. Why not just go get a real OLB and let Coples come off the bench at DE and DT? Especially if we start hearing about Coples being asked to get down to 265 or some such, it just seems like an unnecessary exercise.

My entire point if contention is that Rex's record with player development, especially as it relates to the Jets, doesn't lend itself to irreproachable status. This whole thing began with posters giving Rex the "benefit of the doubt, etc etc." I disagreed.

As far as what would be cool to see from the Rex regime, I'd love to see Demario Davis turn out to be a ten-year starter here. It'd be neat if Coples turned into a double-digit sacker at OLB. If Kyle Wilson doesn't have to finger-wag at players who beat him down the sidelines by five yards. If Kenrick Ellis becomes Pouha. If Bush turns into a non-liability on the back end. When a few oif these things happen, I'll revisit my perspective on Rex's record. As of right now, though, that record isn't worthy of this Rex mythos that seems to surround him amongst some Jets fans.

This is a really interesting take, and a good one. The only thing is contest is that Rex's defenses are consistently better than the sum of their parts, which I attribute to scheme as opposed to individual player contribution. Hell, they lost Revis from the defense and it still performed with a stiff replacing him, which I also attributed to scheme. Of course, when the scheme/gameplay gets figured out, you get 94 yard Tebow drives and 40 point beatdowns at the hands of the Pats.

 

I never said Rex caused it.  Only that it is convenient to ignore his being there and assume their performance would have been equal without it.

 

You're looking at people who have panned out in hindsight and if they turned out good you say they would have anyway.  If Coples was an instant 10-sack guy you'd have said the same thing.  Would Bart Scott have been a pro bowler in Rex's absence? Adalius Thomas? The others I pointed to that maybe didn't make it because they play lower-profile type play on the DL (Gregg, Kemoeatu, Wilkerson).  Even that one year Cromartie got 10 picks he was never a shutdown-type corner before.  Never.  Now the guy's Revis-lite in coverage and - depending on his recovery - quite possibly even his better now.

 

What you're doing is trying to disprove a negative; that these successful people would have been equally successful but for the coach they all gush over and say only good things about (complete with words like "brilliant" and "genius").  I'm not saying they would have been garbage or busts - particularly guys like Ngata & Revis - but Rex got average & above-average production out of scrubs & players who would have othewise been afterthoughts that no one would have heard of.  And I'd wager if you asked any or all of them they'd all give Rex enormous credit for their success.

 

Rex has a lot of shortcomings, and there was more than one occasion last year when I wished we'd just fired him already.  But coaching up defensive players was never one of my complaints.

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Only problem I have with Coples and Wilk playing DE in a traditional 4-3 is do they have the quickness to excel on the the outside ? Coples didnt have it in college since he did much better at DT than he did at DE and Wilkerson is already 315. IMO Offensive tackles would welcome the slower bigger guy they can easily push to the outside. What beats most good Offensive tackles is speed not strength and Im not sure either guy has the speed to be a consistent pass rusher on the outside. Now a LB with speed can open up a lot of things but we dont have one. The one we do have weighs 230 and plays on the inside. Its a weird situation and While I know Idzik said he was sticking to his board at some point with early first round picks you have to deviate a bit.

 

And with all Rex's years of experience coaching defense - quite successfully I might add - you've decided that it was Rex who chose to draft 4 DTs and put 3 of them, including all of the first rounders, at DE and OLB.  If Rex was calling all the shots, one would think he'd have taken two more obvious fits at DE/OLB instead of Coples & Richardson.

 

What makes it less likely still that Rex is "calling the shots" is that he knows he's in a show-me year to avoid getting canned.  If he was calling the shots he'd have drafted for need not value with each of his first 3 picks.  Instead we used those picks on a CB (we already have two), a DT (we already have 2-3), and a QB (who few think will be an asset in the first half of his rookie year at a minimum).  He could have gone OG-TE-WR/RB to fill immediate needs and that probably would have served Rex better in 2013.  

 

But the idea was to draft the best players possible.  While who the best is clearly varies depending on who you ask, there is no doubt the Jets didn't go "biggest need in 2013" with their picks, and that would have been the clearest path to Rex not getting fired at the end of this year.

 

Therefore these picks make it far more obvious that Rex is not at all calling the shots or close to it.

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It'd obviously be great if Coples worked out at OLB and became Terrell Suggs. This is not the debate. But it's fair game to question the logic of such a move, and it's not sufficient to say "Well, if Rex is doing it, it must be smart," because there's not much in Rex's record recently to suggest that he knows what he's doing with bringing players along. You guys want to treat him like he's the defensive version of Bill Walsh developing quarterbacks because Terrell Suggs and Haloti Ngata--which Rex likes to point to--but Baltimore was producing those players before Rex got there and they're still producing them after he left.

 

I guess part of our points are a bit misaligned here.  I certainly don't have Rex on any sort of pedestal or think anything he does with a defensive player is destined for greatness.  That said, I also find it laughable this angle the media has tried to push lately as if it is their such brilliant minds that realize Coples isn't a regular 230lb 4-3 sideline to sideline LB, but Rex is oblivious to this and that's how he's going to try to use him.  I think most Jets fans know better than to buy into that crap, but their disdain for Rex has them want to jump on board with any opportunity to trash the guy.  My point is that the media, which is where this all started, are ******* idiots and I have no reason to believe they have any clue what they're talking about.  Whether it works out or not clearly still remains to be seen, but at the same time it's a bit much to act like of all things, Rex has no clue what he's doing what it comes to this defense.

 

It's not even a matter of crediting him with how players turn out or not, it's a matter of whether he is putting players in a position to succeed, and I don't think there's a shred of evidence out there to suggest at any point in his career that he didn't know how to properly use a defensive player.  I can't think of any player that went on to such great success after they were no longer burdened with the awful incompetence of Rex Ryan as their coach.  That's the angle some of these articles are trying to push, and it's ridiculous.  Particularly considering that, even with a far less versatile group at his disposal when he first got here, Rex still never ran a full-time traditional 2 gap 3-4 defense, which that idea is the entire basis of behind why Coples playing OLB at all (or as they try to incorrectly paint it, full time) is destined for failure.  I all think we saw first hand, there was almost nothing close to the same about how this defense ran in 2008 vs 2009.

 

Don't get me wrong, when all is said and done it could very well blow up in his face, and I'm not sure anyone is trying to act like it's guaranteed to make Coples the league's premier pass-rusher, but that doesn't mean it's destined for failure because of what THEY claim is going to be done with the guy.  I'm not saying Rex is some great head coach, because there's a good chance that even if this move works out brilliantly that he will and should be fired.  That doesn't mean he suddenly has no clue how to use defenders.

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I never said Rex caused it. Only that it is convenient to ignore his being there and assume their performance would have been equal without it.

You're looking at people who have panned out in hindsight and if they turned out good you say they would have anyway. If Coples was an instant 10-sack guy you'd have said the same thing. Would Bart Scott have been a pro bowler in Rex's absence? Adalius Thomas? The others I pointed to that maybe didn't make it because they play lower-profile type play on the DL (Gregg, Kemoeatu, Wilkerson). Even that one year Cromartie got 10 picks he was never a shutdown-type corner before. Never. Now the guy's Revis-lite in coverage and - depending on his recovery - quite possibly even his better now.

What you're doing is trying to disprove a negative; that these successful people would have been equally successful but for the coach they all gush over and say only good things about (complete with words like "brilliant" and "genius"). I'm not saying they would have been garbage or busts - particularly guys like Ngata & Revis - but Rex got average & above-average production out of scrubs & players who would have othewise been afterthoughts that no one would have heard of. And I'd wager if you asked any or all of them they'd all give Rex enormous credit for their success.

Rex has a lot of shortcomings, and there was more than one occasion last year when I wished we'd just fired him already. But coaching up defensive players was never one of my complaints.

Very well then. This year will be a good test of Rex's skill in this area, with six new starters on defense. If he's as good as some think, he might even keep his job.

Always fun engaging with you, btw. You're a gentleman scholar, with supple hands, no doubt.

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I guess part of our points are a bit misaligned here. I certainly don't have Rex on any sort of pedestal or think anything he does with a defensive player is destined for greatness. That said, I also find it laughable this angle the media has tried to push lately as if it is their such brilliant minds that realize Coples isn't a regular 230lb 4-3 sideline to sideline LB, but Rex is oblivious to this and that's how he's going to try to use him. I think most Jets fans know better than to buy into that crap, but their disdain for Rex has them want to jump on board with any opportunity to trash the guy. My point is that the media, which is where this all started, are ******* idiots and I have no reason to believe they have any clue what they're talking about. Whether it works out or not clearly still remains to be seen, but at the same time it's a bit much to act like of all things, Rex has no clue what he's doing what it comes to this defense.

It's not even a matter of crediting him with how players turn out or not, it's a matter of whether he is putting players in a position to succeed, and I don't think there's a shred of evidence out there to suggest at any point in his career that he didn't know how to properly use a defensive player. I can't think of any player that went on to such great success after they were no longer burdened with the awful incompetence of Rex Ryan as their coach. That's the angle some of these articles are trying to push, and it's ridiculous. Particularly considering that, even with a far less versatile group at his disposal when he first got here, Rex still never ran a full-time traditional 2 gap 3-4 defense, which that idea is the entire basis of behind why Coples playing OLB at all (or as they try to incorrectly paint it, full time) is destined for failure. I all think we saw first hand, there was almost nothing close to the same about how this defense ran in 2008 vs 2009.

Don't get me wrong, when all is said and done it could very well blow up in his face, and I'm not sure anyone is trying to act like it's guaranteed to make Coples the league's premier pass-rusher, but that doesn't mean it's destined for failure because of what THEY claim is going to be done with the guy. I'm not saying Rex is some great head coach, because there's a good chance that even if this move works out brilliantly that he will and should be fired. That doesn't mean he suddenly has no clue how to use defenders.

Nice post, and agreed for the most part. As you've said, it's not a huge deal moving Coples around. It's just May speculation to bandy about regarding what the team will look like. If Coples sucks, he moves back to DE and that's that. I think most (like myself) are kicking dirt on Rex's corpse already, so anything he does is a target for derision. You have supple hands, too.

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You are finding fault with him for not turning out multiple pro bowlers on defense in all the years Rex has been here.  The insinuation is that there has been failure after failure on this front.  The reality is that there is a pool of THREE players to judge this by.  One of those three is awesome, one is lousy, and one had been stuck behind a must-start player.

 

I've hardly been one to suck off Rex week after week, but show me another coach where 50% of the defensive draft picks that have started (and 33% of all draftees taken) have developed to pro bowl level within 2 years.

 

Sorry, but that's simply not true.  There have been a lot more than 3 defensive players while Rex was here.  Just because some of the players were already here doesn't mean that Rex couldn't further their development if he was such a great teacher and motivator.  Among them, Gholston was here.  How did Rex fare with him?  Ellis hasn't exactly lit things up, either, in spite of all his talent and athleticism.  Saying that he was stuck behind Pouha and using that as justification is bogus, imo.  If Rex is such a great developer of talent then Ellis would have blown by Pouha.  Pouha was older, had back troubles and wasn't that talented or athletic to begin with.

 

Understand that I'm not saying that I think that Rex is a bad defensive coach and hasn't helped any players develop.  I just think that he doesn't deserve the unquestioned praise and worship that some Jets fans lavish on him.

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Not giving fat Boy a pass on this ....hes drafted 4 DT types in the past 3 drafts and now all of a sudden its OMG how am I going to use em ??? Ill tell ya what every great 3-4 defense is based around great LBS and the elite ones have some DL as well ....Ravens and 85 bears come to mind with great DL men in addition to great LB's ....Rex has chosen to ignore the LB position and when we did Draft a LB we drafted a 230 pound LB who really does not fit the scheme of a 3-4 defense since ILB in the 3-4 MUST take on guards regularly. Say all you want about Rex's genius and his eye on talent but they guy is NOT making logical decisions. Everyone uses the excuse (which is very easy to do) by saying Rex is unconventional and thats fine but there comes a point where that does not cut it.

 

In todays NFL where teams are starting to attack the middle of the field with TE's you better have a freakin LB with speed and a long wing span to cover those TE's currently we have NONE. Harris is a traditional ILB in the 3-4 and he excells vs the run everyone else on this LB squad is either a career back up or a washed up Calvin Pace. yet drafting 4 freakin DT with the top picks in the last 3 drafts makes sense ?

 

Great posts in this thread.  I totally agree.

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Much of the reason for your criticism is that you blindly assume great players would have been just as great if they'd only had mediocre coaching.  If Coples had been moved to LB and worked out there, while in Baltimore, it seems you'd say well duh that Coples was a stud there and Rex had little to do with it. 

 

So what would convince you? It seems there is no convincing you, since there have been high drafted players, mid-drafted players, and undrafted players all pan out big-time while he was coaching them.

 

I tend think the opposite of what you do as his defensive coaching goes.  I think he's better at teaching than he is at developing strategy.  I've seen enough clips of him going over technique with a myriad of players, getting very detailed about it, and those are just little snippets in front of the camera.  

 

Conversely, if his strength was strategy it is my opinion that he wouldn't be such a train wreck on the offensive side of the ball and would instantly shoo away terrible offensive gameplans that he'd find so easy to defend if he were the opponent.  That isn't the case, though.  Our offensive gameplans - as well as who we hand the car keys to on offense, plus development of offensive talent - haven't been too marvelous.  

 

Though people only seem to point to Rex's personality, this is probably at least as much of the reason Rex was passed over in Baltimore.  Ozzie isn't just a GM; he's an ex-player and an ex-offensive-player.

 

I think that you're spot on in this analysis of Rex.  He does focus on fundamentals, and I think that's why the defense has played as well as it has.  I think strategy and even analysis of talent is where he falls short.  There have been a few games where he has outcoached and out-game planned his opponents, but not many.  In fairness, Rex has come up with some good schemes to try to make up for the lack of talent at key positions, but once those schemes are figured out by opposing coaches, he has nothing.  He is also very slow to realize when something isn't working, or at least very slow to change, and often stands there with a confused look on his face.  I just don't think he's very smart.  He's not a one-trick pony, but neither is he the be-all and end-all of DCs imo.

 

As I think Smash said, Rex has seemed content to stand pat with the glacially slow Thomas and Pace at OLB, when the pass-rushing OLB is THE most important position in a 3-4 D alignment.  The lack of speed at LB has killed the Jets time and time again.  I think it's a huge part of why they have often been unable to shut down opponents at key moments in games and why they can't get off the field on 3rd down.  In spite of his being all about pressuring opposing QBs, his defenses have brought very little pressure once other teams figured out his DB blitzes.

 

Those failings, along with his total ignorance about offense, and is lack of accountability and discipline are why I think he isn't a good HC and should be fired following this season unless we see some major improvements from him in those areas.  His offensive cluelessness is puzzling.  Since he's spent so many years figuring out how to stop opposing offenses, one would think that he'd have learned something about offensive philosophy, and would have learned how opposing teams went about attacking his Ds, yet he doesn't seem to have learned one single thing.

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Sorry, but that's simply not true.  There have been a lot more than 3 defensive players while Rex was here.  Just because some of the players were already here doesn't mean that Rex couldn't further their development if he was such a great teacher and motivator.  Among them, Gholston was here.  How did Rex fare with him?  Ellis hasn't exactly lit things up, either, in spite of all his talent and athleticism.  Saying that he was stuck behind Pouha and using that as justification is bogus, imo.  If Rex is such a great developer of talent then Ellis would have blown by Pouha.  Pouha was older, had back troubles and wasn't that talented or athletic to begin with.

 

Understand that I'm not saying that I think that Rex is a bad defensive coach and hasn't helped any players develop.  I just think that he doesn't deserve the unquestioned praise and worship that some Jets fans lavish on him.

 

I believe Rex did further the development of a lot more than 3 players that we've had here with Rex.  This is my point.  In addition to guys who were good before Rex coached them, but who got better under Rex, like Revis and Cromartie and Landry (and to a lesser extent, Calvin Pace), there's also Scott, Leonhard, Pouha, DeVito, Wilkerson, and we'll see this year what Ellis brings (as well as Davis).  Harris I'm not a huge fan of, and cursed his stupid contract on the day it was announced, but the reality is he was a good player who just got too friggin' slow and I don't know what can be done about that.  Plus his play got noticeably worse to me once he got paid, whether that's coincidence or not.

 

Gholston is Rex's fault now?  The guy is not an NFL football player.  I've dumped on Rex plenty but I can't fault Rex for not developing a workout warrior with neither the desire nor instincts nor ability to succeed at the NFL level.  If we dumped him and then someone else turned Gholston into a player then that would be a serious knock against Rex, but that didn't happen.  Chicago gave it a go and he was laughed off the team almost immediately.  No one else will even waste their time on him.

 

Ellis IS taking Pouha's place.  And despite your making light of him, Pouha was one of the game's premiere run stuffing NTs until health problems arose.  There aren't many guys in the league - let alone 3rd round draft picks in their first & second seasons - who would have been able to push Pouha out of a starting job.

 

By the way, Pouha was a big zero nada nothing before Rex got his foot-massaging hands on him.  Then he became a starter who stepped right in for Kris Jenkins - as well as has-been Marques Douglas (another guy Rex developed from nothing in Balt) for Kenyon Coleman - and the DL barely missed a beat (at least against the run).  That's what he got out of a guy who you say is neither talented nor athletic, and who had accomplished both jack and squat and little else before Rex was his coach.  One would think you'd be impressed by that instead of mocking it.

 

Point to a bunch of players who got no better - or who arguably got worse - with Rex coaching them.

 

And since you're new here I'll just say so you're pointing fingers at the wrong guy if you think I'm one who lavishes unquestioned praise at Rex.  I just think he's a good defensive coordinator and a great defensive coach.

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If Coples drops 5-10 lbs he'll be roughly the same weight as KC's stud OLB Tamba Hali (275 lbs) despite being almost 3" taller and a little faster.

 

Fair point. But Hali's game has always been as a DE/beat tackles and tight ends, pass rusher.

 

Coples has never been that kind of guy. He excells against guards and centers, not tackles.

 

Its a square peg/round hole.

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I think that you're spot on in this analysis of Rex.  He does focus on fundamentals, and I think that's why the defense has played as well as it has.  I think strategy and even analysis of talent is where he falls short.  There have been a few games where he has outcoached and out-game planned his opponents, but not many.  In fairness, Rex has come up with some good schemes to try to make up for the lack of talent at key positions, but once those schemes are figured out by opposing coaches, he has nothing.  He is also very slow to realize when something isn't working, or at least very slow to change, and often stands there with a confused look on his face.  I just don't think he's very smart.  He's not a one-trick pony, but neither is he the be-all and end-all of DCs imo.

 

As I think Smash said, Rex has seemed content to stand pat with the glacially slow Thomas and Pace at OLB, when the pass-rushing OLB is THE most important position in a 3-4 D alignment.  The lack of speed at LB has killed the Jets time and time again.  I think it's a huge part of why they have often been unable to shut down opponents at key moments in games and why they can't get off the field on 3rd down.  In spite of his being all about pressuring opposing QBs, his defenses have brought very little pressure once other teams figured out his DB blitzes.

 

Those failings, along with his total ignorance about offense, and is lack of accountability and discipline are why I think he isn't a good HC and should be fired following this season unless we see some major improvements from him in those areas.  His offensive cluelessness is puzzling.  Since he's spent so many years figuring out how to stop opposing offenses, one would think that he'd have learned something about offensive philosophy, and would have learned how opposing teams went about attacking his Ds, yet he doesn't seem to have learned one single thing.

 

Think of it this way Klecko ...as fans we have known for years and years this team lacked skill players on offense. We have gone through 2 periods in the last decade with very good offensive lines (at certain stages 09 and 10 and the Mawae years) and absolutely nothing behind them when it came to skill. The team never addressed the issue and continues not to address the issue in an offensive minded league.

 

As a matter of fact when WR's started to play well this team turned them away. In 02 Coles emerged as Pennys top receiver only to be let go the following year.... Then As Moss started to emerge We traded him to that same Redskin team for a then damaged Coles. It was maddening. We had a slow Curtis Martin who certainly gained some yards behind a great OL but he was never a threat defenses had to worry about so they keyed on our weak receiver corp. probably part of the reason our offense was so predictable and Martin was able to gain yards in the first place.

 

Then we bring in Rex who is one dimentional. He claims to know nothing on offense but the typical fan can see we are severely lacking explosive skill players which in turn can be disrupting the entire offense.

 

You make a good point where I bolded. Rex should know more about how to build an offense based on whet he sees week in and week out on the defensive side of the ball but when people like Plaxico and Mason are brought in when we already have the disruptive Holmes it certainly makes you question the decisions just a bit.

 

I dont mean to tie in what we did this whole decade because we are talking about 3 different GM's Badway, Tanny and now Idzik but everything seems the same to me in where this team puts its priorities. It almost seems like whenever we have a weakness we simply dont address it.

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