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Coples as an OLB? Is Rex desparate or clueless here?


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#76 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

No, I wasn't point fingers at you about lavishing unquestioned praise.  That was more of a general comment for those whom "the glove fit."

 

I agree that Rex has made some players better and has gotten solid defense from a bunch of jags at times.  Maybe I expect too much of him since his reputation is so great, but there's just too many times where his D can't get the job done when the chips are down, and he's too slow to make adjustments when things aren't working.  I also find it incredibly odd that Rex has been expected to create a winner without giving him the tools he needs on D to build a dominant D (pass-rushing OLB and FS).  Based on Tanny's not having any experience or knowledge of personnel, I have to believe that Rex had a lot of input into the draft and FA every year, but perhaps that isn't accurate.

 

I guess I probably also have lost confidence in him because of his cluelessness regarding offense and his lack of discipline and accountability.

 

Maybe bringing up Gholston was a cheap shot at Rex, because by and large I agree with you, but part of me can't help but think that if Rex was as great at developing players as some claim, he would have found a way to reach and turn Gholston into a player in spite of himself since the kid has all the physical talent in the world.

 

I wasn't making light of Pouha.  He has worked his butt off, maximized his talent, and has succeeded with strength, hard work and will.  My point is that Ellis has far greater athleticism and tools and was dominant in college, so with a great coach and developer, it's hard for me to understand why he hasn't developed yet.  I hope you're right that he will this year, but I fear that Garay will be the starter, not Ellis and that Ellis is gonna wind up being a bust.

 

My major gripes with Rex are his failings as a HC, not as a DC, but I do think that some here (but as I now see obviously not you) don't acknowledge those failings.

 

It's an understandable gripe.  He was hired to be the HC not the DC.  His contribution to more than just the defense seems to be painting red yellow green colors on Mark's wrist, pushing for Plaxico Burress ("he, can we get that guy?"), making sulky Sanchez and dirtbag jerkoff Holmes team captains, and babbling about how Mark Sanchez gives us the best chance to win to everyone who asked and to plenty who didn't.

 

Oh yeah, he also spoke far too much to draft picks he wanted to select, when there was some doubt they would be available to us.  No one knows how the last 2 drafts would have otherwise unfolded exactly, but he hardly helped.

 

Look, I scream at the TV and curse out with the best of them but the only way that wouldn't happen is if he never made mistakes.  The team that wins our division every single year and seems to go to the SB every other year is FAR worse at developing their own players.  As great as Gronk & Hernandez have turned out, how many TEs did BB draft & go through before that? 10? I know he burned a couple of first rounders on Graham & Watson.  They kicked around the league for a while but when you take a TE in round 1 they're supposed to be better than meh. What of all the atrocious RBs and WRs he drafted? Every year or two he'd have to bring in some other teams' veterans to cover up for him missing on every WR he drafted.  Every year these bozos would get A+ draft grades and every year hardly any (if any at all) panned out.

 

But he lucked into Brady and he cheated his way to a few rings, so no one remembers the dozens of total garbage he drafted while trading up & down, trying to look more clever than everyone else.  Meanwhile it seems plenty of guys he took or didn't take were based on who a player's college coach was and/or who his agent was.  Winning hides an awful lot of shortcomings in developing players (as well as every commentator overlooking what a slimy, bloodcurdling douchebag he is).

 

If Rex loses again - and if he loses colorfully like he's made a habit of doing - he's not going to be able to hang his hat or his shoes or whatever on a pair of AFCCG losses a few years back.  The reality is if he'd been given a quality OC and a quality QB few would realize what a pathetic excuse of a HC he is for at least half his team.  Think Sean Payton has his fingerprints all over the Saints' defense? Me neither.  He may very well be just as clueless on that side of the ball as Rex is on offense.  But like BB with Brady, he stepped in sh*t with Brees, his offense puts up points since his expertise is on the side of the ball the rules are skewed to favor now, and he's got a SB ring, so he gets a pass on what he's terrible at.

 

There are other coaches just like that.  Coaches who are considered pretty good (or better than Rex anyway).  Let Rex do what he wants on defense, give him a quality QB, OC, and OL, and the truth is he can still take the team pretty far.  Look how far he got with no pass rushers and Mark Sanchez and some pretty mediocre receivers.  As bad as the team's outlook is & has been, if MM keeps Rex out of his office and David Garrard can stay healthy, who's to say how far this team could go even though they're still only 1 year into a 2 year rebuild.


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#77 Smashmouth

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:34 PM

pardon my French, but why the fvck would rex need to look at Coples college tape?  He has worked with him for a year now.  Don't you think he knows him a bit better than when he had him work through some linebacker drills during his private workout before he was drafted.  I mean, come on, give rex some fvcking credit, at least on the defensive side of the ball.

 

from the college standpoint you would be correct but from the Pro ..... I saw Coples getting some nice pressures up the middle on a few occasions during the season. It seemed like he could be a disruptive force up the middle, so hey lets move him to the outside :) . Hell, we know right now the QB's in our division like to step up in the pocket so lets take what amounts to a slow outside rusher without the moves of a true OLB passrusher and take longer to get to the QB. In a league where it takes 2.5 to 3 seconds to get rid of the ball this is a bad decision IMO .... Let Rex be Rex and we can be the Judges on game days just how good an idea it was to move Coples to the outside.


Edited by Smashmouth, 11 May 2013 - 06:35 PM.

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#78 HessStation

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:22 PM

And with all Rex's years of experience coaching defense - quite successfully I might add - you've decided that it was Rex who chose to draft 4 DTs and put 3 of them, including all of the first rounders, at DE and OLB. If Rex was calling all the shots, one would think he'd have taken two more obvious fits at DE/OLB instead of Coples & Richardson.

What makes it less likely still that Rex is "calling the shots" is that he knows he's in a show-me year to avoid getting canned. If he was calling the shots he'd have drafted for need not value with each of his first 3 picks. Instead we used those picks on a CB (we already have two), a DT (we already have 2-3), and a QB (who few think will be an asset in the first half of his rookie year at a minimum). He could have gone OG-TE-WR/RB to fill immediate needs and that probably would have served Rex better in 2013.

But the idea was to draft the best players possible. While who the best is clearly varies depending on who you ask, there is no doubt the Jets didn't go "biggest need in 2013" with their picks, and that would have been the clearest path to Rex not getting fired at the end of this year.

Therefore these picks make it far more obvious that Rex is not at all calling the shots or close to it.

I was thinking they were partially Rex's picks. I think fans (including myself) like to wrap every player in a nice gift wrapped position bc it eases our worried minds. The coaching staff probably has a different perspective.

I'm wondering how this is all going to work out, somewhat weary. But I don't Rex is. So we'll see if they can make it all work.
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#79 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

Justin Bannan should also have made the list of DL developed by Ryan.
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#80 JoeKlecko

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

It's an understandable gripe.  He was hired to be the HC not the DC.  His contribution to more than just the defense seems to be painting red yellow green colors on Mark's wrist, pushing for Plaxico Burress ("he, can we get that guy?"), making sulky Sanchez and dirtbag jerkoff Holmes team captains, and babbling about how Mark Sanchez gives us the best chance to win to everyone who asked and to plenty who didn't.

 

Oh yeah, he also spoke far too much to draft picks he wanted to select, when there was some doubt they would be available to us.  No one knows how the last 2 drafts would have otherwise unfolded exactly, but he hardly helped.

 

Look, I scream at the TV and curse out with the best of them but the only way that wouldn't happen is if he never made mistakes.  The team that wins our division every single year and seems to go to the SB every other year is FAR worse at developing their own players.  As great as Gronk & Hernandez have turned out, how many TEs did BB draft & go through before that? 10? I know he burned a couple of first rounders on Graham & Watson.  They kicked around the league for a while but when you take a TE in round 1 they're supposed to be better than meh. What of all the atrocious RBs and WRs he drafted? Every year or two he'd have to bring in some other teams' veterans to cover up for him missing on every WR he drafted.  Every year these bozos would get A+ draft grades and every year hardly any (if any at all) panned out.

 

But he lucked into Brady and he cheated his way to a few rings, so no one remembers the dozens of total garbage he drafted while trading up & down, trying to look more clever than everyone else.  Meanwhile it seems plenty of guys he took or didn't take were based on who a player's college coach was and/or who his agent was.  Winning hides an awful lot of shortcomings in developing players (as well as every commentator overlooking what a slimy, bloodcurdling douchebag he is).

 

If Rex loses again - and if he loses colorfully like he's made a habit of doing - he's not going to be able to hang his hat or his shoes or whatever on a pair of AFCCG losses a few years back.  The reality is if he'd been given a quality OC and a quality QB few would realize what a pathetic excuse of a HC he is for at least half his team.  Think Sean Payton has his fingerprints all over the Saints' defense? Me neither.  He may very well be just as clueless on that side of the ball as Rex is on offense.  But like BB with Brady, he stepped in sh*t with Brees, his offense puts up points since his expertise is on the side of the ball the rules are skewed to favor now, and he's got a SB ring, so he gets a pass on what he's terrible at.

 

There are other coaches just like that.  Coaches who are considered pretty good (or better than Rex anyway).  Let Rex do what he wants on defense, give him a quality QB, OC, and OL, and the truth is he can still take the team pretty far.  Look how far he got with no pass rushers and Mark Sanchez and some pretty mediocre receivers.  As bad as the team's outlook is & has been, if MM keeps Rex out of his office and David Garrard can stay healthy, who's to say how far this team could go even though they're still only 1 year into a 2 year rebuild.

 

I think you're spot on regarding Belicheat. Belicheat handles the draft amazingly well acquiring lots of picks which should help him to keep the cupboard full, but then is obviously a lousy judge of talent as he has missed much more than he has hit on his picks.   How he has handled the draft reminds me of the old Seinfeld episode where he made a reservation for a rental car, but when he went to pick it up there wasn't a car available.  He ranted, "You know how to take a reservation, but you don't know how to HOLD it, and holding the reservation is the most important part."

 

I also think you're spot on regarding Rex, Payton and other HCs.  Payton and many of those other HCs are either lucky enough to have a good GM who gets them enough talent or hires good coaches on the other side of the ball, or they are smart enough to know what they don't know, then see to it that good coaches are hired on that side of the ball and then let them do their thing, while providing oversight.


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#81 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

I think you're spot on regarding Belicheat. Belicheat handles the draft amazingly well acquiring lots of picks which should help him to keep the cupboard full, but then is obviously a lousy judge of talent as he has missed much more than he has hit on his picks. How he has handled the draft reminds me of the old Seinfeld episode where he made a reservation for a rental car, but when he went to pick it up there wasn't a car available. He ranted, "You know how to take a reservation, but you don't know how to HOLD it, and holding the reservation is the most important part."

I also think you're spot on regarding Rex, Payton and other HCs. Payton and many of those other HCs are either lucky enough to have a good GM who gets them enough talent or hires good coaches on the other side of the ball, or they are smart enough to know what they don't know, then see to it that good coaches are hired on that side of the ball and then let them do their thing, while providing oversight.


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#82 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

Fair point. But Hali's game has always been as a DE/beat tackles and tight ends, pass rusher.

 

Coples has never been that kind of guy. He excells against guards and centers, not tackles.

 

Its a square peg/round hole.

 

I think this is a major misconception about his game. He had his best season inside in college, sure. He also dominated the Senior Bowl against OTs. He was the best defensive player there. He was put through LB drills at the combine and in pro day workouts. There was talk of him as an OLB prospect  all the way up until it was said he would be playing DE as a rookie here. 


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#83 dbatesman

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

I think this is a major misconception about his game. He had his best season inside in college, sure. He also dominated the Senior Bowl against OTs. He was the best defensive player there. He was put through LB drills at the combine and in pro day workouts. There was talk of him as an OLB prospect  all the way up until it was said he would be playing DE as a rookie here. 

 

Sure, he had that whole "college career" thing. But what about that one game? Also, he did stuff in shorts and a t-shirt. Plus, people said things.


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#84 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:21 PM

Snack time.
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#85 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:27 PM

Sure, he had that whole "college career" thing. But what about that one game? Also, he did stuff in shorts and a t-shirt. Plus, people said things.

 

As an end, Coples occasionally explodes off tape as a completely different player. When asked to engage one-on-one with tackles, Coples is able to use his size to throw them around pretty effectively ... at times. He will better disengage and flash through to the pocket from outside. As an interior defender, he's very effective when stunting or looping around, looking for gaps -- in these situations ,you see the speed that doesn't show up when he's in a smaller space. Also, as an end, he covers more ground in a bigger hurry -- as a run defender, he can rush into the backfield and show tackling skills that are hidden when he's an interior player. Directs himself well, gets up a good head of steam, and makes a fair amount of drag-down tackles in space.

From the end position, Coples is better at sliding off the single blocker and reaching out to make tackles -- this is where his size is actually an advantage. At times, even with technique that does him no favors, he'll simply overwhelm the blocker facing him -- putting tight ends straight up on Coples would seem to be a silly thing to do. Showed more pass-rush ability during Senior Bowl week when he was able to simply pin his ears back, which provides a beacon of hope.

 

 

Cons: I find it hard to ding Coples for his play as a one-shade nose tackle because it's so obviously a bad fit for him, but in case anyone's wondering ... he cannot break up multiple blockers inside in that role. He tends to wash out right away because he doesn't possess the raw explosion or upper-body strength common to the best one-gap inside tackles. He'll occasionally slide off one blocker and give the other a good push inside, but anyone looking to make Coples a dedicated or rotational pass-rusher between center and guard might want to go back and re-check that notion.

Comes off the ball high in a lot of different roles and it impacts his play negatively, especially inside -- you don't often see him just steamroll his man as a three-tech tackle or as a five-tech end in NC's occasional three-man fronts. That's something he'll need work on at the next level -- when he engages blockers, Coples tends to lock on instead of getting free and pursuing. Comes off the ball late and "soft" at times; you'd like to see more pure speed and force from a man with his physical attributes. Doesn't use his hands aggressively once engaged and gets pushed and punched back too easily in a general sense. Doesn't have the ideal "dip-and-rip" as an outside pass rusher; tackles can ride him out of the pocket pretty easily. Got a lot of his sack production against questionable competition -- four of his seven sacks in 2011 came against James Madison and Duke. In 2010, three of his 10 sacks came against a 4-8 Rutgers team whose passing game was a basic disaster.

 

http://sports.yahoo....-235853544.html


Edited by SenorGato, 11 May 2013 - 09:28 PM.

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#86 Lizard King

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

Tldr
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#87 dbatesman

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

Sure, he had that whole "college career" thing. But what about that one game? Also, he did stuff in shorts and a t-shirt. Plus, Doug Farrar said things.


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#88 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

Double snack!
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#89 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:34 PM

Sure, he had that whole "college career" thing. But what about that one game? Also, he did stuff in shorts and a t-shirt. Plus, Doug Farrar said things.

 

Brandt had him at #4 as his top DE.

 

Coples, DE (6-foot-5 3/4, 278 pounds) — Coples stood on all his marks from the NFL Combine, but had a very good workout at DE and LB and probably solidified his status as a top-10 draft pick.

 

 

 

4. Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina (4)

Coples has the traits that lead to success at his position. He ran a 4.8 and did 25 bench reps. But he has played better on third down than on first or second. On third down, he had seven pressures; he had just five total on first and second down. He doesn’t rate as high as Ryan Kerrigan or J.J. Watt did when they came out.

 

 


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#90 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:36 PM

Send Marty to store for more snacks.
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#91 dbatesman

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

Brandt had him at #4 as his top DE.

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, he had that whole "college career" thing. But what about that one game? Also, he did stuff in shorts and a t-shirt. Plus, Doug Farrar and Andrew Brandt (!) said things.


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#92 JADEDGREEN

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:45 PM

Yummy.
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#93 SenorGato

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:45 PM

Gil Brandt had him at 4. 

 

Had him at 5 in January 2012:

 

5. Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina

A first-team All-ACC selection in 2010 and 2011, he's an all-out every-down player.

 

 


Edited by SenorGato, 11 May 2013 - 09:48 PM.

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#94 jason423

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:42 PM

I think you have to give Rex the benefit of the doubt on his defensive moves though I see the personnel here far more suited to a 43 than moving Coples to a 34 OLB. But I trust Rex with the defense as much as I distrust him with the offense. On the topic of Coples Im not sure how much that pick was really his. I know everyone says it was his guy but he has been on Coples more than any player I can think of. Now maybe thats because Rex doesnt want people to think he is treating his pick with kids gloves but I kind of think Rex preferred to trade down and take Chandler Jones or something like that. 


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#95 jason423

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:52 PM

I think that you're spot on in this analysis of Rex.  He does focus on fundamentals, and I think that's why the defense has played as well as it has.  I think strategy and even analysis of talent is where he falls short.  There have been a few games where he has outcoached and out-game planned his opponents, but not many.  In fairness, Rex has come up with some good schemes to try to make up for the lack of talent at key positions, but once those schemes are figured out by opposing coaches, he has nothing.  He is also very slow to realize when something isn't working, or at least very slow to change, and often stands there with a confused look on his face.  I just don't think he's very smart.  He's not a one-trick pony, but neither is he the be-all and end-all of DCs imo.

 

As I think Smash said, Rex has seemed content to stand pat with the glacially slow Thomas and Pace at OLB, when the pass-rushing OLB is THE most important position in a 3-4 D alignment.  The lack of speed at LB has killed the Jets time and time again.  I think it's a huge part of why they have often been unable to shut down opponents at key moments in games and why they can't get off the field on 3rd down.  In spite of his being all about pressuring opposing QBs, his defenses have brought very little pressure once other teams figured out his DB blitzes.

 

Those failings, along with his total ignorance about offense, and is lack of accountability and discipline are why I think he isn't a good HC and should be fired following this season unless we see some major improvements from him in those areas.  His offensive cluelessness is puzzling.  Since he's spent so many years figuring out how to stop opposing offenses, one would think that he'd have learned something about offensive philosophy, and would have learned how opposing teams went about attacking his Ds, yet he doesn't seem to have learned one single thing.

 

Thats been the killer for Rex. In 2009 those blitz packages took the league by storm. People pointed to Revis as the guy but it was a combination of Revis and those blitzes that made the defense so good. Statistically Revis has never come close to 2009 again (always great but 2009 was other worldly) and the reason was because the schemes were picked apart in the 2009 offseason. Once the scheme was picked apart the defense didnt have the horses to carry it out. The Jets upset the Pats in the playoffs in part because the Pats didnt take the Jets seriously and because Rex completely changed up his defensive plan with the all DB attack that the Pats refused to acknowledge until it was too late in th egame. It was probably Ryans finest moment as a coach because he outsmarted Belichick and knew he was too stubborn to change. If the Pats started running in the 2nd or 3rd quarter they would have beat us that day but they didnt give in until it was far too late in the game. 

 

But Rex has such a hard time letting go. I could only watch Eric Smith literally getting stood up at the point of attack on every blitz attempt so many times but Rex would keep it going and going and going. Hes ridiculously loyal to his players. How he kept Scott, Pace, and BT out there is just a slap in the face of everyone. Pace is probably the worst rush linebacker in the NFL and its no surprise none of these players could find a home. I think he just feels his scheme fixes all and I think he felt that he gave up too much control in the last two years. Hes back to being a full time DC coordinator now. I think he figures that is how they will win and he keeps his job. 


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#96 Barton

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:12 AM

I don't watch college ball, but from what I gather Coples was a beast as a DT as a junior and wasn't nearly as good as a senior when he played a lot of DE.  

 

If so, when Coples didn't do well outside also coincides with what was widely reported pre-draft as laziness throughout his senior season (a trait he may be showing again, as Rex just publicly called him out yesterday).  So it's possible he would have had just as much of a dropoff had he remained inside, and the problem was his attitude and effort rather than where he lined up.

 

Maybe.

 

What seems obvious to me is that Rex must know if this doesn't work out and if the team in general doesn't show some promise - and show why it would be better with him than someone else - then he's out of a job.  Rex has seen plenty of good linebackers and if he thought Coples couldn't make the switch he wouldn't waste time trying.  Either that or he has no clue what he's doing on that side of the football, which I don't believe.

 

The bold - fair point.

 

The italics - I'd agree but why make the switch only after you do not draft an OLB? Make the switch 2 months ago and then I can understand that there is a plan or strategy here. The fact that the switch was only made after Dion Jordan and Mingo went off the board before 9, makes me think that Rex is desparate for a pass rusher.


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#97 j4jets

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:11 AM

People act as if Rex decided to make the change without even thinking about it. I'll trust his judgement on the D (especially DL) more than any other poster here. I sure Rex did his due diligence.


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#98 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:28 AM

The bold - fair point.

 

The italics - I'd agree but why make the switch only after you do not draft an OLB? Make the switch 2 months ago and then I can understand that there is a plan or strategy here. The fact that the switch was only made after Dion Jordan and Mingo went off the board before 9, makes me think that Rex is desparate for a pass rusher.

 

And if you think that, then it lends less credence to the "Rex is running the show" stuff regarding the draft.  Jarvis Jones was a far bigger need-position and, since he only went 4 picks after Richardson, certainly wouldn't have been hailed as a reach pick.  

 

Idzik - for better or worse - feels that drafting that high, particularly when both sides of the ball are going through such a major overhaul, you take the BPA and don't look at what positions you need.  (Presumably this would go out the window in certain special cases, like if we had Revis & Cro locked up for 3 more years he wouldn't have taken Milliner, or wouldn't take a center or left tackle with us locked into ours for many years to come, or a QB if we actually had a good one already.  The rationale is that you don't pass up the best value in the draft because of a specific need in any 1 season, particularly in a rebuild year when our needs are so many.  Take the guy at a position where substituting a mediocre player has the greatest detrimental effect on the team.  


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#99 JoeKlecko

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

Thats been the killer for Rex. In 2009 those blitz packages took the league by storm. People pointed to Revis as the guy but it was a combination of Revis and those blitzes that made the defense so good. Statistically Revis has never come close to 2009 again (always great but 2009 was other worldly) and the reason was because the schemes were picked apart in the 2009 offseason. Once the scheme was picked apart the defense didnt have the horses to carry it out. The Jets upset the Pats in the playoffs in part because the Pats didnt take the Jets seriously and because Rex completely changed up his defensive plan with the all DB attack that the Pats refused to acknowledge until it was too late in th egame. It was probably Ryans finest moment as a coach because he outsmarted Belichick and knew he was too stubborn to change. If the Pats started running in the 2nd or 3rd quarter they would have beat us that day but they didnt give in until it was far too late in the game. 

 

But Rex has such a hard time letting go. I could only watch Eric Smith literally getting stood up at the point of attack on every blitz attempt so many times but Rex would keep it going and going and going. Hes ridiculously loyal to his players. How he kept Scott, Pace, and BT out there is just a slap in the face of everyone. Pace is probably the worst rush linebacker in the NFL and its no surprise none of these players could find a home. I think he just feels his scheme fixes all and I think he felt that he gave up too much control in the last two years. Hes back to being a full time DC coordinator now. I think he figures that is how they will win and he keeps his job. 

 

Spot on.  I totally agree with every single point.  

 

That game vs the Patriots is really the only game where I feel like Rex has clearly out-coached his counterpart.

 

It's sad, but that loyalty obviously blinds him to reality.  He either cannot see or refuses to see that the job isn't getting done with "his guys" and that his schemes have stopped working with regards to rushing the opposing QB.  Ultimately, it will probably lead to his demise as a HC.

 

You're probably right that Rex feels that reverting back to being in total control of the D is what will save his job, but I think it will again be ultimately what keeps him from becoming a successful HC long term.  It may work in the short term and save his job for another year or two, but he'll get stuck in that mode, and find himself still not know jack about offense, and if he's fired from here, may have a hard time finding another HC job.


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Rex Ryan, the bag lady of NFL HCs.




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