Building an Offense

[Smashmouth]

Ok so lets assume Geno is the guy what do you think would be the best way to handle the offense moving forward ?

 

In my opinion next years draft would be one of the most important drafts in Genos development. The first thing we should focus on is getting a dual threat RB in here to take off some of the pressure. This back should be in the mold of a Ray Rice or a Doug Martin a back who can be effective in all phases of the position which will take a ton of pressure off Geno. This can be huge for a young QB. 

 

The next move would be the TE. The reason I go here next is because we did address the Offensive line this year but I would not be opposed to drafting a great Offensive lineman if one happened to fall to us in next years draft. There is also the factor that the players we want are just not available so this can take many different directions. I think the TE and RB are the most important needs to address for a young QB because they act as a safety valve and they are also a good way for an offense to get in sync early in games working the running game and short passing attack in the middle of the field.

 

Next move would be a big posession WR someone who can move the chains. When I think of this type of player Im thinking in the mold of a Micheal Irvin or a Keyshawn Johnson. I think we have our guy in the slot in Kerley and Hill can be the Burner but Hill has not yet proven to be a good posession guy. I think hes tough and will have no issue going over the middle but will he consistently catch the ball to convert big first downs at critical points in the game like you need from big receiver ? reamians to be seen. Either way you need a big tough posession guy you can trust to go and get the football and convert 3rd's into 1st's

 

Role players - we have seen the effect losing role players has had on our offense especially the running game which has declined steadily over the past 2 years as opposed to the previous 2 (09 and 10 ) Losing guys like Hartsock, T- Rich and Turner most definetly had a big effect, it was not just about losing Woody, who happened to be a great run blocker. Turner and Hartsock brought a toughness we seemed to lose the last few years we were no longer the ground and pound that was associated with playing the Jets. Hopefully a guy like Bohanon will emerge as a steady FB in the WCO we are going to be implementing. FB's do play a role in that offense and it certainly does not mean lining them up wide like Idiot Shotty used to do . Attacking the middle of the field with the FB will be a big part of the plan sort of the way Montana did with Rathman would love for Bohanan to be half the player Rathman was

 

I think a good philosophy on offense is to keep teams off balance something the Jets have lacked for many years. creating mismatches also comes to mind in the void our offense has been. Hopefully we can change this culture and get with the trend in the NFL and finally be able to attack teams in numerous ways not just G and P

[SayNoToDMC]

Draft some defense. If Geno is the guy we're all set on the offensive side of the ball if he's not get another QB and try again.

[Jetscode1]

Ok so lets assume Geno is the guy what do you think would be the best way to handle the offense moving forward ?

 

In my opinion next years draft would be one of the most important drafts in Genos development. The first thing we should focus on is getting a dual threat RB in here to take off some of the pressure. This back should be in the mold of a Ray Rice or a Doug Martin a back who can be effective in all phases of the position which will take a ton of pressure off Geno. This can be huge for a young QB. 

 

The next move would be the TE. The reason I go here next is because we did address the Offensive line this year but I would not be opposed to drafting a great Offensive lineman if one happened to fall to us in next years draft. There is also the factor that the players we want are just not available so this can take many different directions. I think the TE and RB are the most important needs to address for a young QB because they act as a safety valve and they are also a good way for an offense to get in sync early in games working the running game and short passing attack in the middle of the field.

 

Next move would be a big posession WR someone who can move the chains. When I think of this type of player Im thinking in the mold of a Micheal Irvin or a Keyshawn Johnson. I think we have our guy in the slot in Kerley and Hill can be the Burner but Hill has not yet proven to be a good posession guy. I think hes tough and will have no issue going over the middle but will he consistently catch the ball to convert big first downs at critical points in the game like you need from big receiver ? reamians to be seen. Either way you need a big tough posession guy you can trust to go and get the football and convert 3rd's into 1st's

 

Role players - we have seen the effect losing role players has had on our offense especially the running game which has declined steadily over the past 2 years as opposed to the previous 2 (09 and 10 ) Losing guys like Hartsock, T- Rich and Turner most definetly had a big effect, it was not just about losing Woody, who happened to be a great run blocker. Turner and Hartsock brought a toughness we seemed to lose the last few years we were no longer the ground and pound that was associated with playing the Jets. Hopefully a guy like Bohanon will emerge as a steady FB in the WCO we are going to be implementing. FB's do play a role in that offense and it certainly does not mean lining them up wide like Idiot Shotty used to do . Attacking the middle of the field with the FB will be a big part of the plan sort of the way Montana did with Rathman would love for Bohanan to be half the player Rathman was

 

I think a good philosophy on offense is to keep teams off balance something the Jets have lacked for many years. creating mismatches also comes to mind in the void our offense has been. Hopefully we can change this culture and get with the trend in the NFL and finally be able to attack teams in numerous ways not just G and P

 

Looks like Idzik likes the BPA draft strategy...either that or Rex has his ear...I guess it really depends on how long Rex and MM get to stay...if we can assume this is a long term project...than I'll state the obvious and offer we need game changers...the more the merrier...whether at the RB/WR/TE position really doesn't matter...we lack explosiveness...players that can change the game in one play...wanted Austin but the Rams wanted him more...really thought we'd pull the trigger on Eifert at 13...and I know we can argue whether a TE can have the much impact...but we are woefully lacking dynamic play makers...another thought...kind of goes against your position that Geno was the "guy" premise...but if Ertz is there at 39...do the Jets select him or follow through on Geno?

[SenorGato]

If Geno is a good QB then look to keep Marty as an OC if not Ryan's replacement. Once there's a QB the offense will be fine, especially since the franchise has alot of prime aged and young OL talent. Draft where depth is needed at WR and TE from there, and obviously the more high end talent you can get the better.

[LAD_Brooklyn]

Free agency will give us a better prospective on who to draft agree? So it tough call but just to go along I would want to draft a WR assuming we don't get a worthy one in free agency. I like the versatility of De'Anthony Thomas from Oregon and the idea of using him as an hybrid (RB/slot R). Although this team is bad don't think we're bad enough for Lee or Watkins.

[T0mShane]

The Jets could add Marquise Lee, Greg Olsen, Jacoby Jones, and Ben Tate to their skill position group next year without major expense, and with $50 mil to work with.

[Jetsfan80]

Free agency will give us a better prospective on who to draft agree? So it tough call but just to go along I would want to draft a WR assuming we don't get a worthy one in free agency. I like the versatility of De'Anthony Thomas from Oregon and the idea of using him as an hybrid (RB/slot R). Although this team is bad don't think we're bad enough for Lee or Watkins.

 

It'll be interesting to see what Idzik does with all that cap space.  We'll still be drafting BPA, so I don't think Idzik would want to spend huge coin on one or 2 monster free agents.  I think he'd rather pick up a few nice players to give the team flexibility.  I think the kinds of guys T0mShane points out in the post above are what we'll end up with.

 

Are there anyone pricey on the team whose contract we're going to want to extend?  Maybe Cromartie....and that's about it?  We're going to be in real good shape financially.

[sirlancemehlot]

Any and every successful offense starts with a solid offensive line. Nobody wants to admit that, because we love to shop in the snack aisle. But our most successful draft in the past decade netted us 2 probowl offensive lineman in brick and mangold. The first pick taken this year was a tackle. Cooper and warmack were both taken before the drafts highest rated qb. There's a reason. A superior offensive line makes up for mediocre running backs. A superior oline gives you an extra second to make decisions, and an extra second or two for wr's and TE's to get open. They get you across the goal line on 4th and two. They get you that first down. They open running lanes. They change your scheme and force the defense to adjust. Watch Alabama's dominance last year and the line is what jumps out at you. When we had brick, mangold, Moore, faneca and woody, we were contenders for the Super Bowl. With Sanchez behind center no less. If we truly are rebuilding,nthen we are going to have to get the line settled once and for all. Otherwise we're just spinning our wheels.

[stugotz81]

Any and every successful offense starts with a solid offensive line. Nobody wants to admit that, because we love to shop in the snack aisle. But our most successful draft in the past decade netted us 2 probowl offensive lineman in brick and mangold. The first pick taken this year was a tackle. Cooper and warmack were both taken before the drafts highest rated qb. There's a reason. A superior offensive line makes up for mediocre running backs. A superior oline gives you an extra second to make decisions, and an extra second or two for wr's and TE's to get open. They get you across the goal line on 4th and two. They get you that first down. They open running lanes. They change your scheme and force the defense to adjust. Watch Alabama's dominance last year and the line is what jumps out at you. When we had brick, mangold, Moore, faneca and woody, we were contenders for the Super Bowl. With Sanchez behind center no less. If we truly are rebuilding,nthen we are going to have to get the line settled once and for all. Otherwise we're just spinning our wheels.

All good points about the OLine...but without a legit QB, you can only remain a contender for the Superbowl...

 

and your right, a successful offense may start with a solid offensive line..but it finishes with a solid QB.    

[Jetsfan80]

All good points about the OLine...but without a legit QB, you can only remain a contender for the Superbowl...

 

and your right, a successful offense may start with a solid offensive line..but it finishes with a solid QB.    

 

Gotta have both.  And this offseason, we made serious attempts to GET both.  Peterman and Colon don't seem like serious investments, but using a 3rd to get Winters certainly was.  Can't complain about that.  Particularly when you consider our OL was actually pretty good even before bringing in so many new faces.

 

Brandon Moore is still unsigned too.  I'd like to see the Jets bring him back on a 1-year, veteran minimum (or a little more) deal if no one decides to snag him and he gets desperate.

[SayNoToDMC]

Gotta have both.  And this offseason, we made serious attempts to GET both.  Peterman and Colon don't seem like serious investments, but using a 3rd to get Winters certainly was.  Can't complain about that.  Particularly when you consider our OL was actually pretty good even before bringing in so many new faces.

 

Brandon Moore is still unsigned too.  I'd like to see the Jets bring him back on a 1-year, veteran minimum (or a little more) deal if no one decides to snag him and he gets desperate.

 

I wouldn't call them serious investments but it's nice to have depth with starting experience for once. Peterman gave up the most QB pressures of any starting guard in the league last year and Colon is an injury waiting to happen. They give us options and depth while we to see if Vlad can play(LOL) and the lineman we drafted are ready to go,

[SenorGato]

Draft some defense. If Geno is the guy we're all set on the offensive side of the ball if he's not get another QB and try again.

 

Oh and +1

 

Clowney would make this defense scary, and an Anthony Barr or Van Noy or something would make a great compliment to Coples. That's if they Ed Reynolds, the Stanford safety, doesn't have another big season. 

[Jetsfan80]

Oh and +1

 

Clowney would make this defense scary, and an Anthony Barr or Van Noy or something would make a great compliment to Coples. That's if they Ed Reynolds, the Stanford safety, doesn't have another big season. 

 

I'm not sure if SayNo was being facetious there.  AKA not sure if srs AKA trap.

[SenorGato]

I'm not sure if SayNo was being facetious there.  AKA not sure if srs AKA trap.

YOU sit may not be sure, but I am and was! 

[slats]

Cooper and warmack were both taken before the drafts highest rated qb. There's a reason.

There is a reason. It was a very weak QB draft. In fact, it was considered to be a weak draft overall. It's rare for a single guard to go in the top half of the first round. This year was an anomaly.

The Jets still have Brick and Mangold. You don't need five first rounders across your OL. They're going about building it the right way, IMHO. A couple inexpensive free agents to hold the fort while the three OL they just drafted get up to speed. Not to mention Vlad. Really, if you're a Church of OL guy, you have to be reasonably pleased with this offseason.

[NCJETSFAN]

If Geno is a good QB then look to keep Marty as an OC if not Ryan's replacement. Once there's a QB the offense will be fine, especially since the franchise has alot of prime aged and young OL talent. Draft where depth is needed at WR and TE from there, and obviously the more high end talent you can get the better.

MM as head coach ? Are u kidding me. In the 11 yrs since Detroit not one team has even mentioned him and if the jets didn't come calling for OC he would still be at home So lets relax on the MM talk

[SenorGato]

Lol yeah Mornhinweg would be out on the streets without a job had the stupid Jets not fallen for his tricks. I believe it.

That and the Jets don't have enough invested in OL...Yep....

[T0mShane]

Maybe we can give the head coaching job to Brian Schottenheimer.

[Sperm Edwards]

There is a reason. It was a very weak QB draft. In fact, it was considered to be a weak draft overall. It's rare for a single guard to go in the top half of the first round. This year was an anomaly.

The Jets still have Brick and Mangold. You don't need five first rounders across your OL. They're going about building it the right way, IMHO. A couple inexpensive free agents to hold the fort while the three OL they just drafted get up to speed. Not to mention Vlad. Really, if you're a Church of OL guy, you have to be reasonably pleased with this offseason.

 

 

+1

 

I love that they looked hard at the OL, but I like it specifically for a few reasons:

 

1. They didn't take a f*cking guard with the 9th pick in the country, no matter how great he's supposed to be.  No matter if he goes to the HOF.  No matter if it's a weak top of the draft.  You don't take a f*cking guard with a top 10 pick. The strength of the draft was (supposedly) OL.  In a draft like that, you take your linemen later, and you take them often.  You piss away higher picks on OL when there are just 1 or 2 guys to get before the talent drops off a cliff to permanent backup & UDFA talent level.  Rumor is he had Cooper as one of his "two guys" higher than Milliner (the other being Austin).  If true, particularly if Milliner is even 70% of Revis, then knowing the haul we were able to get with later picks, we dodged a bullet.  A real CB opposite Cromartie is going to serve us much better than a guard, and is both far more difficult and far more expensive to find in free agency.   

 

2. They are clearly committed to BPA in the draft.  The heart of any GM says he wants his rookies to start right away if possible, but the head knows that if this is true then we'd have 3 mid-round rookies starting on our OL.  So the best-case scenario is lousy.  Therefore he took BPA - or more correctly, who he had on his list as the BPA - even if it meant going back to the same part of the field pick after pick when we had obvious needs elsewhere.  A smart GM gets in love with a player, not the position he plays.

 

3. He clearly knows we needed an upgrade at QB but didn't panic despite all the rumors of this team or that team taking Smith or any other QB.  Stayed in his spot and didn't put multiple eggs into the Geno Smith basket by using 2-3 draft picks on him the way his predecessor did with Sanchez, Greene, Hill, and others.  Same thing with the OL.  Waited for the draft to come to him - particularly at the draft's area of strength - instead of trading up for his guy out of fear that he won't be there.  Ironically, the only real position I'd advocate doing that with is QB and he still stayed cool and waited for Geno to fall to us; he's not a can't miss prospect so if someone else grabs him we'll find our QB somewhere else.  Difference between drafting with your head & drafting with your balls.

 

4. We brought in 2 dirt-cheap free agents and re-upped Austin Howard, all on 1 year deals to pair with our 3 rookies at those 3 positions.  Keep in mind Peterman, before last year's downturn, was a pretty highly-ranked guard.  Last year was either the beginning of the end of his career, an off-season for some unknown reason, or just a guy who'd run his course with that team.  You find out which one by signing him to a 1-year deal at or near the vet minimum.  Plus-side for all 3 on these 1-year deals, is that any that get signed elsewhere (in '14) can us a compensatory pick.  Nothing huge, but it's more than we'd get if we inked any to a 2 year deal and then cut him after only 1.

 

 

The thing is this is all theory, though.  In the end it will come down to the talent he's drafted as much as the strategy used.  If most of them pan out he'll look like a genius for getting 5 or more starters for a team in serious rebuild mode.  Otherwise he'll just look like another fool Jets GM who passed up on this or that great player.

[bassmaster2]

+1

 

I love that they looked hard at the OL, but I like it specifically for a few reasons:

 

1. They didn't take a f*cking guard with the 9th pick in the country, no matter how great he's supposed to be.  No matter if he goes to the HOF.  No matter if it's a weak top of the draft.  You don't take a f*cking guard with a top 10 pick. The strength of the draft was (supposedly) OL.  In a draft like that, you take your linemen later, and you take them often.  You piss away higher picks on OL when there are just 1 or 2 guys to get before the talent drops off a cliff to permanent backup & UDFA talent level.  Rumor is he had Cooper as one of his "two guys" higher than Milliner (the other being Austin).  If true, particularly if Milliner is even 70% of Revis, then knowing the haul we were able to get with later picks, we dodged a bullet.  A real CB opposite Cromartie is going to serve us much better than a guard, and is both far more difficult and far more expensive to find in free agency.   

 

2. They are clearly committed to BPA in the draft.  The heart of any GM says he wants his rookies to start right away if possible, but the head knows that if this is true then we'd have 3 mid-round rookies starting on our OL.  So the best-case scenario is lousy.  Therefore he took BPA - or more correctly, who he had on his list as the BPA - even if it meant going back to the same part of the field pick after pick when we had obvious needs elsewhere.  A smart GM gets in love with a player, not the position he plays.

 

3. He clearly knows we needed an upgrade at QB but didn't panic despite all the rumors of this team or that team taking Smith or any other QB.  Stayed in his spot and didn't put multiple eggs into the Geno Smith basket by using 2-3 draft picks on him the way his predecessor did with Sanchez, Greene, Hill, and others.  Same thing with the OL.  Waited for the draft to come to him - particularly at the draft's area of strength - instead of trading up for his guy out of fear that he won't be there.  Ironically, the only real position I'd advocate doing that with is QB and he still stayed cool and waited for Geno to fall to us; he's not a can't miss prospect so if someone else grabs him we'll find our QB somewhere else.  Difference between drafting with your head & drafting with your balls.

 

4. We brought in 2 dirt-cheap free agents and re-upped Austin Howard, all on 1 year deals to pair with our 3 rookies at those 3 positions.  Keep in mind Peterman, before last year's downturn, was a pretty highly-ranked guard.  Last year was either the beginning of the end of his career, an off-season for some unknown reason, or just a guy who'd run his course with that team.  You find out which one by signing him to a 1-year deal at or near the vet minimum.  Plus-side for all 3 on these 1-year deals, is that any that get signed elsewhere (in '14) can us a compensatory pick.  Nothing huge, but it's more than we'd get if we inked any to a 2 year deal and then cut him after only 1.

 

 

The thing is this is all theory, though.  In the end it will come down to the talent he's drafted as much as the strategy used.  If most of them pan out he'll look like a genius for getting 5 or more starters for a team in serious rebuild mode.  Otherwise he'll just look like another fool Jets GM who passed up on this or that great player.

We should give the GM a chance , he got 7 player out of the draft , the can not rebuild a team in one draft with so many holes to fill , it may take 3 year until we see if the drafted player pan out , the only problem was the RB that is in trouble and the jets are going to cut 

[sirlancemehlot]

There is a reason. It was a very weak QB draft. In fact, it was considered to be a weak draft overall. It's rare for a single guard to go in the top half of the first round. This year was an anomaly.

The Jets still have Brick and Mangold. You don't need five first rounders across your OL. They're going about building it the right way, IMHO. A couple inexpensive free agents to hold the fort while the three OL they just drafted get up to speed. Not to mention Vlad. Really, if you're a Church of OL guy, you have to be reasonably pleased with this offseason.

I would argue you dont need all first rounders on your DL as much as you need them on your OL.  But we drafted DL #1 the last three years, plus Kenrick Ellis.

I was actually homocidal until the third round.  Then it got a bit better.  I'm pleased with this year's draft.  Much more confident in the 2013 draft than I've been in the few drafts previous.  My hope is that we can get a road grader on the right side and mobile guard on the left.  We'll see if Winters and Oday can fill those voids.  The other dude is a project for the practice squad

[SenorGato]

I would swiftly disagree with that DL vs OL argument. It's insanely harder to find a good DT compared to finding a good OG.

[sirlancemehlot]

I would swiftly disagree with that DL vs OL argument. It's insanely harder to find a good DT compared to finding a good OG.

Generally, yes.  But situationally, when you run a base  3-4, already have a solid starter at every DL position plus depth, but have weaknesses at RG, LG and RT, it would seem to me drafting at least one stud OL would be a priority.  I like Winters, but would have preferred to bolster the line. Neither Mangold nor Brick have been considered elite in the last few years, a direct result of being part of a line thats been ignored for several years. 

[T0mShane]

Generally, yes. But situationally, when you run a base 3-4, already have a solid starter at every DL position plus depth, but have weaknesses at RG, LG and RT, it would seem to me drafting at least one stud OL would be a priority. I like Winters, but would have preferred to bolster the line. Neither Mangold nor Brick have been considered elite in the last few years, a direct result of being part of a line thats been ignored for several years.

We agree on a lot, but I'm not feeling this one. You had Brick and Mangold, and Moore has been good. They invested a second rounder on a bust, and completely underestimated how bad both Vlad and Wayne Hunter would be. You can't keep supplementing poor coaching and drafting by burning assets on positions you've already invested in. At some point, you have to look at the coach and say, "make it work."

[slats]

I would argue you dont need all first rounders on your DL as much as you need them on your OL.  But we drafted DL #1 the last three years, plus Kenrick Ellis.

The history of the NFL disagrees with you. DTs and DEs consistently get drafted in the top five/ten of the draft, while guards and centers rarely -if ever- go that high. You build the two units differently, with the OL much more about being a cohesive group, while the DL plays more like individuals. Aside from franchise-type left tackles, DL are always more athletic than OL. That's why the Jets converted Brandon Moore, and are looking to do more of the same with William Campbell. These are guys who were better athletes than the OL on their college teams, but not good enough to play DL in the pros.

[sirlancemehlot]

The history of the NFL disagrees with you. DTs and DEs consistently get drafted in the top five/ten of the draft, while guards and centers rarely -if ever- go that high. You build the two units differently, with the OL much more about being a cohesive group, while the DL plays more like individuals. Aside from franchise-type left tackles, DL are always more athletic than OL. That's why the Jets converted Brandon Moore, and are looking to do more of the same with William Campbell. These are guys who were better athletes than the OL on their college teams, but not good enough to play DL in the pros.

The history of the NFL disagrees with me.  With all due respect, I made it clear that generally it is harder to find a good DL than a good OL.  (Although, left tackles go higher than DL in every draft and they play on the line).  The part you're ignoring is my statement based on situation, not generality.  You draft DL #1 three years in a row and the last OL you drafted higher than the 6th round is Vlad Ducasse.  Tom basically said you've struck out with Vlad, so there's no point in spending more picks on OL when you can get other positions.  But, doesn't it make more sense to continue to work on something until it improves?  I get offensive lineman are very unsexy.  I get that you can plug holes with JAGs from time to time.  But what happens when you can't open a hole, can't protect the passer, can't pick up a blitz and can't get a push on 3rd and short?  You lose football games.  Not saying this draft was bad...the opposite actually.  Idzik finally did something to improve a weakness and provide depth, something ridiculously lacking during the RexenBaum era, so there's hope.  I'd like to see our OL improved over the next two seasons or so.  If that happens, we will have an offense again, no matter who's behind center.

[sirlancemehlot]

We agree on a lot, but I'm not feeling this one. You had Brick and Mangold, and Moore has been good. They invested a second rounder on a bust, and completely underestimated how bad both Vlad and Wayne Hunter would be. You can't keep supplementing poor coaching and drafting by burning assets on positions you've already invested in. At some point, you have to look at the coach and say, "make it work."

Richardson, Coples, Wilkerson, Ellis.  When we had Pouha, Devito, Dixon, Harrison, Tevaseu. 

 

What did we have going for us offensively when we went to two AFCCG that we dont have now?  Elite QB?  no, same guy. An elite WR?  no.  Elite running back?  no.  game changing TE?  nope.  same guy the last two years as the previous two. 

What we had was D'Brickashaw Furguson, Alan Faneca, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore and Damien Woody. Slauson, Ducasse, Austin and Hunter were all enormously less talented than anyone in the above group.  Sanchez had to run for his life, McElroy got sacked 137 times in a single quarter, Tebow...bleh, nevermind, WR's not getting open and RB's hit in the backfield.   This is the difference in my opinion.

[slats]

The history of the NFL disagrees with me. With all due respect, I made it clear that generally it is harder to find a good DL than a good OL. (Although, left tackles go higher than DL in every draft and they play on the line). The part you're ignoring is my statement based on situation, not generality. You draft DL #1 three years in a row and the last OL you drafted higher than the 6th round is Vlad Ducasse. Tom basically said you've struck out with Vlad, so there's no point in spending more picks on OL when you can get other positions. But, doesn't it make more sense to continue to work on something until it improves? I get offensive lineman are very unsexy. I get that you can plug holes with JAGs from time to time. But what happens when you can't open a hole, can't protect the passer, can't pick up a blitz and can't get a push on 3rd and short? You lose football games. Not saying this draft was bad...the opposite actually. Idzik finally did something to improve a weakness and provide depth, something ridiculously lacking during the RexenBaum era, so there's hope.

Tannenbaum is gone. Whatever the owner perceived to be his shortcomings, he's already paid for them with his job.

Idzik now has the job of improving the football team. He seems to've taken the BAP approach to this year's draft, rather than focus on need. So he liked Miliner better than Warmack, and he liked Richardson better than any other OL left. I have no problem with that at all. Drafting for need is a shortcut to drafting poorly, IMHO. If the Jets can stockpile a number of great DL, maybe they get to the point where they can franchise and trade them the way other teams do with QBs. That's something you really can't do with guards.

I'd like to see our OL improved over the next two seasons or so. If that happens, we will have an offense again, no matter who's behind center.

I'm all for improving the OL, but you have this backwards. Put the right guy under center, and you can get to and/or win a Super Bowl with Jonathan Goodwin delivering the snap.

[Jetsfan80]

What did we have going for us offensively when we went to two AFCCG that we dont have now?  Elite QB?  no, same guy. An elite WR?  no.  Elite running back?  no.  game changing TE?  nope.  same guy the last two years as the previous two. 

 

We did a great job playing "hide the QB' those 1st 2 years.  We surrounded him with a dominant running game and handed him Holmes, Edwards, Keller, and Cotchery to throw the ball to.  The problem is you can't just keep the other 52 positions around the QB elite.  We're certainly TRYING to bolster the OL and running game right now, but we couldn't fix everything in one offseason.

 

The better solution is find a good QB so you don't have to constantly surround a guy with elite talent and still get poor results.  It's a miracle we made it to 2 AFC title games with Sanchez under center.  The talent around him and the defense all were great.  I'd prefer to try to find greatness at QB than constantly have to improve the other 52 positions all the time.  Draft a QB every season until it happens and plug away at the other spots as you can.  

 

Any other method is working backwards and won't end up with optimal results.  We gave Sanchez that extension, and surprise, he was still terrible.  You can't try to build around a terrible QB.  It will never, EVER work.

[SayNoToDMC]

We agree on a lot, but I'm not feeling this one. You had Brick and Mangold, and Moore has been good. They invested a second rounder on a bust, and completely underestimated how bad both Vlad and Wayne Hunter would be. You can't keep supplementing poor coaching and drafting by burning assets on positions you've already invested in. At some point, you have to look at the coach and say, "make it work."

 

My real question is how do you burn a second on a guard(who they gave a first round grade) and miss completely? Outside of a freak unforeseen injury that's entirely unforgivable. It's not as bad as missing on a kicker in the second, but still

[sirlancemehlot]

Tannenbaum is gone. Whatever the owner perceived to be his shortcomings, he's already paid for them with his job.

Idzik now has the job of improving the football team. He seems to've taken the BAP approach to this year's draft, rather than focus on need. So he liked Miliner better than Warmack, and he liked Richardson better than any other OL left. I have no problem with that at all. Drafting for need is a shortcut to drafting poorly, IMHO. If the Jets can stockpile a number of great DL, maybe they get to the point where they can franchise and trade them the way other teams do with QBs. That's something you really can't do with guards.

I'm all for improving the OL, but you have this backwards. Put the right guy under center, and you can get to and/or win a Super Bowl with Jonathan Goodwin delivering the snap.

I'm not making the either/or argument, here.  We need a better QB, or at minimum, better play from our current QB.  But remember Sanchez has been the quarterback the last four years, not the last two.  The last two we had inferior line play.  The previous two we had exceptional line play.  Our results basically mirror my argument that a very good Oline equals success on offense.  The reason is, I believe, that a good line effects all facets of the offense, from power running to creating time in the pocket to allowing receivers a chance to get open to blocking downfield on screens (Faneca was a beast on screens).  A bad line forces you to have a star QB.  And then hope he doesn't get broken in half.  Also, you're a dirty pirate hooker.  There.  I win.

[sirlancemehlot]

My real question is how do you burn a second on a guard(who they gave a first round grade) and miss completely? Outside of a freak unforeseen injury that's entirely unforgivable. It's not as bad as missing on a kicker in the second, but still

but...but..bench press...

[JoeKlecko]

Any and every successful offense starts with a solid offensive line. Nobody wants to admit that, because we love to shop in the snack aisle. But our most successful draft in the past decade netted us 2 probowl offensive lineman in brick and mangold. The first pick taken this year was a tackle. Cooper and warmack were both taken before the drafts highest rated qb. There's a reason. A superior offensive line makes up for mediocre running backs. A superior oline gives you an extra second to make decisions, and an extra second or two for wr's and TE's to get open. They get you across the goal line on 4th and two. They get you that first down. They open running lanes. They change your scheme and force the defense to adjust. Watch Alabama's dominance last year and the line is what jumps out at you. When we had brick, mangold, Moore, faneca and woody, we were contenders for the Super Bowl. With Sanchez behind center no less. If we truly are rebuilding,nthen we are going to have to get the line settled once and for all. Otherwise we're just spinning our wheels.

 

 

I would argue you dont need all first rounders on your DL as much as you need them on your OL.  But we drafted DL #1 the last three years, plus Kenrick Ellis.

I was actually homocidal until the third round.  Then it got a bit better.  I'm pleased with this year's draft.  Much more confident in the 2013 draft than I've been in the few drafts previous.  My hope is that we can get a road grader on the right side and mobile guard on the left.  We'll see if Winters and Oday can fill those voids.  The other dude is a project for the practice squad

 

I am primarily responding to the bolded sentence in your second post above.   I disagree with your overall premise that we need five first rounders on the OL.  On the DL, while they do work together running some stunts, their play as individuals is much more important.  On passing downs in most defenses, it's the DE's job to get after the QB.  That's all about individual effort, speed, strength, skill and athleticism.   

 

In general, great LT prospects go high.  Great RT prospects usually go a little lower.  Those are the two most important OL positions.  I can agree with using first round picks on both tackle spots, although it isn't necessary.  Centers and OGs traditionally are drafted much lower.  That trend is changing, and it will be interesting to see where it goes, but I don't think we'll see many teams with 5 - #1 picks on the OL.  One, it isn't necessary.  Quality OGs and Cs can be found in the middle and lower rounds, and even as UDFAs.  The drop off in talent between a 1st round OG and 4th round OG is less than it is between a 1st round WR and a 4th round WR or a 1st round RB and a 4th round RB or a 1st round OLB, CB, S or most any other position on a football team you can name.  One of the Jets' best, most consistent OL in recent history was Brandon Moore, a UDFA convert from the DL.  Two, no team can financially afford to have five first rounders on its OL.  Once you get past their rookie contracts, their contracts skyrocket, and a team would have too much of its cap space tied up on the OL.  In fact, one of the reasons the Jets have almost no play makers on offense (other than Tanny sucks) is that they had too much of their cap tied up in the OL.  Three, short of a major trade, teams only have 1 first round pick in each draft.  If you use your top picks on line grunts, you don't have any left for the more important play-making positions.

 

You cited Alabama's OL, but it wasn't made up of 5 first rounders.  Well, Warmack And Fluker were taken high (#10 & #11), but how about Barrett Jones?  He was considered an excellent prospect yet wasn't drafted until the 4th round.  They played great as a unit, and that's what is key, not 5 great individuals.  More than any other unit on a football team, it is critical that the OL play well together as a unit.   In fact, an OL HAS to function as a unit. Five individuals functioning as individuals, no matter how great, won't cut it for long. There's not the need for as great athleticism or speed at C or OG as there is at other positions. Many times when one member of an OL gets beat, another line mate is able to help out, or the offense has a TE or FB to help block, or a WR to chip.  

 

Yes, perhaps the most successful draft in the last decade was the one in which we drafted both Brick and Mangold, but there are a couple of reasons for that.  One, that was because we had two first round picks in that draft and haven't had two first rounders again until this year.  Two, the OL had been horribly neglected in the draft until that one and they found two very good starters.

 

As for Cooper and Warmack  being taken higher than the draft's highest-rated QB, it's because it was considered a very weak year for QBs in the draft and there wasn't a single consensus no miss QB prospect, and it was considered one of the strongest drafts for OGs in a long time and there were a lot of teams needing OGs this year.

 

Finally, in response to your first post above, yes the OL is very important.  I agree that the Jets' OL needed some definite upgrading both in terms of starters at the OG positions and at RT.  They need to get it settled, but I disagree that they need five first rounders to do it.   I love the Winters pick.  I didn't know anything about him before the draft, but he looks like a great prospect.  I hope he will prove to be a great starter on the OL for the next 10 years.  I'm not gonna hold my breath on either Aboushi or Campbell, but I like the effort.  Hopefully, at the very least, Aboushi will be a solid backup at several OL positions.  If Campbell can develop anywhere near to the level that Moore did, he will be a great pick and key contributor on the OL.

[JoeKlecko]

We did a great job playing "hide the QB' those 1st 2 years.  We surrounded him with a dominant running game and handed him Holmes, Edwards, Keller, and Cotchery to throw the ball to.  The problem is you can't just keep the other 52 positions around the QB elite.  We're certainly TRYING to bolster the OL and running game right now, but we couldn't fix everything in one offseason.

 

The better solution is find a good QB so you don't have to constantly surround a guy with elite talent and still get poor results.  It's a miracle we made it to 2 AFC title games with Sanchez under center.  The talent around him and the defense all were great.  I'd prefer to try to find greatness at QB than constantly have to improve the other 52 positions all the time.  Draft a QB every season until it happens and plug away at the other spots as you can.  

 

Any other method is working backwards and won't end up with optimal results.  We gave Sanchez that extension, and surprise, he was still terrible.  You can't try to build around a terrible QB.  It will never, EVER work.

 

Agreed.  Good post.

[sirlancemehlot]

I am primarily responding to the bolded sentence in your second post above.   I disagree with your overall premise that we need five first rounders on the OL.  On the DL, while they do work together running some stunts, their play as individuals is much more important.  On passing downs in most defenses, it's the DE's job to get after the QB.  That's all about individual effort, speed, strength, skill and athleticism.   

 

In general, great LT prospects go high.  Great RT prospects usually go a little lower.  Those are the two most important OL positions.  I can agree with using first round picks on both tackle spots, although it isn't necessary.  Centers and OGs traditionally are drafted much lower.  That trend is changing, and it will be interesting to see where it goes, but I don't think we'll see many teams with 5 - #1 picks on the OL.  One, it isn't necessary.  Quality OGs and Cs can be found in the middle and lower rounds, and even as UDFAs.  The drop off in talent between a 1st round OG and 4th round OG is less than it is between a 1st round WR and a 4th round WR or a 1st round RB and a 4th round RB or a 1st round OLB, CB, S or most any other position on a football team you can name.  One of the Jets' best, most consistent OL in recent history was Brandon Moore, a UDFA convert from the DL.  Two, no team can financially afford to have five first rounders on its OL.  Once you get past their rookie contracts, their contracts skyrocket, and a team would have too much of its cap space tied up on the OL.  In fact, one of the reasons the Jets have almost no play makers on offense (other than Tanny sucks) is that they had too much of their cap tied up in the OL.  Three, short of a major trade, teams only have 1 first round pick in each draft.  If you use your top picks on line grunts, you don't have any left for the more important play-making positions.

 

You cited Alabama's OL, but it wasn't made up of 5 first rounders.  Well, Warmack And Fluker were taken high (#10 & #11), but how about Barrett Jones?  He was considered an excellent prospect yet wasn't drafted until the 4th round.  They played great as a unit, and that's what is key, not 5 great individuals.  More than any other unit on a football team, it is critical that the OL play well together as a unit.   In fact, an OL HAS to function as a unit. Five individuals functioning as individuals, no matter how great, won't cut it for long. There's not the need for as great athleticism or speed at C or OG as there is at other positions. Many times when one member of an OL gets beat, another line mate is able to help out, or the offense has a TE or FB to help block, or a WR to chip.  

 

Yes, perhaps the most successful draft in the last decade was the one in which we drafted both Brick and Mangold, but there are a couple of reasons for that.  One, that was because we had two first round picks in that draft and haven't had two first rounders again until this year.  Two, the OL had been horribly neglected in the draft until that one and they found two very good starters.

 

As for Cooper and Warmack  being taken higher than the draft's highest-rated QB, it's because it was considered a very weak year for QBs in the draft and there wasn't a single consensus no miss QB prospect, and it was considered one of the strongest drafts for OGs in a long time and there were a lot of teams needing OGs this year.

 

Finally, in response to your first post above, yes the OL is very important.  I agree that the Jets' OL needed some definite upgrading both in terms of starters at the OG positions and at RT.  They need to get it settled, but I disagree that they need five first rounders to do it.   I love the Winters pick.  I didn't know anything about him before the draft, but he looks like a great prospect.  I hope he will prove to be a great starter on the OL for the next 10 years.  I'm not gonna hold my breath on either Aboushi or Campbell, but I like the effort.  Hopefully, at the very least, Aboushi will be a solid backup at several OL positions.  If Campbell can develop anywhere near to the level that Moore did, he will be a great pick and key contributor on the OL.

Wow.  Thats a long post.  You make a great argument and put a lot of thought into it.  But the 5 first rounders on OL wasn't really my point at all.  It was part of an argument over whether drafting 3 DL in the first round was wise considering the only OL we've drafted since Vlad has been in the 6th rd or later.  It wsan't meant literally.  And I'm OK with this year's draft.  Actually happy with it.  Particularly happy that the OL has finally been addressed by Idzik through FA and the draft.  It was long overdue.  The OP is about "how to build an offense".   And my response is, you start at the line, and build up the rest.  Would I have taken Richardson over Warmack, who went on the very next pick?  No.  Warmack would have made me happier.  Because the value is similar but the need was far greater considering we have Coples, Wilkerson and Ellis, plus solid depth in Harrison and others.  The upshot is the OL is the key to this offense considering the rarity of finding a QB who can be successful without a good line.