kelticwizard Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Which describes every QB in the league outside of about twelve. Jaws sucks. James Walker is worse. Close. Top 11 would be top level, 12-22 would be mid level and 23-32 would be bottom level. So mathematically at least, you and Jaws are in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelticwizard Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'll say one thing about Jaworski, though. When Vick was flying high and Eli was just beginning to emerge from a couple of bad years, he had the guts to put himself on the line and say that he would rather have Eli than Vick. This is when everyone was going crazy about how how great Vick was, and were talking about how the Giants needed to draft another QB to start over. Jaworski was right, and he said it against the overwhelming opinion of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sourceworx Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Jaworski said that Sanchez' ceiling is mid-level, that is, put him on a quality offense with a really good running game and he might well make some plays for you. He won't ever be able to be the star who can explode and pass the team up and down the field. Maybe he's right. But when you trade up to the fifth overall spot in the draft to pick a QB, your expectations for that player are a bit higher than just a mid-level starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelticwizard Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I agree. It was hardly a compliment by Jaworski when he predicts mid-level as Best Possible Future. It's pretty much an invitation to the Jets to start looking somewhere else. If the Jets were winning games and in contention, rating the QB as mid-level might not be so bad since the team is working well with him in place. Saying mid-level is as high as this guy is going to go IF everything else works out right for the team....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 thats a joke right? I say sanchez woulda been worse. Cardinals O line was a mess sanchez woulda fumbled another 20 times No joke. Look at the where the teams rank in passing yards/game, and the individual statistics of each team's top (3-10) receivers. Despite a piss poor OL, and horrendous QB play, the ARI receivers bailed out Kolb far more than ours did Sanchez. Btw, I don't want to debate the 28th ranked team against the 32nd, and understand the variables at play (OL play, Division, depth, etc) but to say Fitzgerald, Roberts, and Floyd wouldn't have been an improvement over Kerley, Cumberland and Keller is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I missed where Jaws ranked Kellen Clemens. (still a backup in the league, btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (still a backup in the league, btw) Amazing to think about. If Justin McCareins doesn't drop a sure TD against Baltimore (from Clemens), we could have preceded the Sanchez Era with an entire Clemens Era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sourceworx Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Amazing to think about. If Justin McCareins doesn't drop a sure TD against Baltimore (from Clemens), we could have preceded the Sanchez Era with an entire Clemens Era. If you think about it, as laughable as it was, Jaws calling Clemens the best QB I'm that draft wasn't that far off. He's still I'm league while Leinart and Young are not. Only Cutler has been more successful. Just goes to show you how bad that crop of QBs was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 No joke. Look at the where the teams rank in passing yards/game, and the individual statistics of each team's top (3-10) receivers. Despite a piss poor OL, and horrendous QB play, the ARI receivers bailed out Kolb far more than ours did Sanchez. Btw, I don't want to debate the 28th ranked team against the 32nd, and understand the variables at play (OL play, Division, depth, etc) but to say Fitzgerald, Roberts, and Floyd wouldn't have been an improvement over Kerley, Cumberland and Keller is silly. the top recievers dont matter when the qb is on his back sanchez's worst attribute is probably how he handles pressure so with a bottom 4 o line i bet hed do even worse if not get hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 the top recievers dont matter when the qb is on his back sanchez's worst attribute is probably how he handles pressure so with a bottom 4 o line i bet hed do even worse if not get hurt Disagree. His accuracy/touch is his worst attribute. He's surprisingly mobile and has good feet in the pocket. The problems I've seen recently are his not having targets become available to him, open targets dropping his (few and far in between) accurate passes, and receivers rarely making the impossible catch to bail him out. All issues I hold the WRs responsible for. 2 of his top 3 reception leaders were TEs, and that's only because his BFF Keller was replaced by Cumberland, not because of 2 TE-set designs. With a mediocre QB, like Sanchez, you need above-average WRs. Surrounding him with camp fodder and expecting different results than what we saw is asinine. Collectively, the Arizona Cardinals top-3 receivers (WR or TE) matched the production of our top SIX...180 to 181 receptions....and that was with the NFLs worst offensive line, compared to ours (a top ten). Put some blame on Sanchez, sure. But injuries, depth, and inexperience at the WR position is what fuc*ed us last year. Kudos to Mark for shouldering the blame, but it wasn't all on him. You need someone to throw to, to be successful in this league...and I would argue that was the biggest issue with our team last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Disagree. His accuracy/touch is his worst attribute. He's surprisingly mobile and has good feet in the pocket. The problems I've seen recently are his not having targets become available to him, open targets dropping his (few and far in between) accurate passes, and receivers rarely making the impossible catch to bail him out. All issues I hold the WRs responsible for. 2 of his top 3 reception leaders were TEs, and that's only because his BFF Keller was replaced by Cumberland, not because of 2 TE-set designs. With a mediocre QB, like Sanchez, you need above-average WRs. Surrounding him with camp fodder and expecting different results than what we saw is asinine. Collectively, the Arizona Cardinals top-3 receivers (WR or TE) matched the production of our top SIX...180 to 181 receptions....and that was with the NFLs worst offensive line, compared to ours (a top ten). Put some blame on Sanchez, sure. But injuries, depth, and inexperience at the WR position is what fuc*ed us last year. Kudos to Mark for shouldering the blame, but it wasn't all on him. You need someone to throw to, to be successful in this league...and I would argue that was the biggest issue with our team last year. The WR do get seperation. They arnt great but they do get some seperation its not like they are always covered and sanchez has to fit it into a nonexistent window. Sanchez cant find them his vision is sh*t also it doesnt matter how great ur WR. Cant throw from your back cardinals gave up a league leading 58 sacks. Sanchez woulda died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 The WR do get seperation. They arnt great but they do get some seperation its not like they are always covered and sanchez has to fit it into a nonexistent window. Sanchez cant find them his vision is sh*t also it doesnt matter how great ur WR. Cant throw from your back You make it sound like he was taking sacks left and right, but that wasn't the case. He had nobody to throw to...or, more accurately nobodies. Two of our previously starting WRs are in the CFL, Two are still unsigned to ANY team, ones still acting like a rookie, and the other is still injured. Our entire receiving corp sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Your edited response just goes to show how much the Cardinals receivers bailed out a mediocre QB. On edit: Kolb DID take a lot of sacks, and WAS still more statistically productive than Sanchez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 If you think about it, as laughable as it was, Jaws calling Clemens the best QB I'm that draft wasn't that far off. He's still I'm league while Leinart and Young are not. Only Cutler has been more successful. Just goes to show you how bad that crop of QBs was. Great point. Jaws is still a jackhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Great point. Jaws is still a jackhole. CALL ME CRAZY, BUT I AM EXCITED ABOUT TYLER PALKO TONIGHT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Dude, we were excited to have David ******* Garrard. Believe that. Ummm, speak for yourself, pal. I wasn't excited to have David Garrard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsjetsjetss Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Your edited response just goes to show how much the Cardinals receivers bailed out a mediocre QB. On edit: Kolb DID take a lot of sacks, and WAS still more statistically productive than Sanchez. why doesnt that show that kolb is better? Sanchez had the much better o line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 why doesnt that show that kolb is better? Sanchez had the much better o line Right. Sanchez had MORE time to find LESS quality receivers, and suffered statistically. Makes sense to me. I know you can't equate player talent with draft status; gems can sometimes be found in later rounds. But it does give a good indication of where the team has placed it's priority in building the roster. Compare: ARI top-3 reception leaders combined for 180 rec. Fitzgerald: 1st rd pick Floyd: 1st rd pick Roberts: 3rd rd pick (The next two in line still had more rec than our second best ...and look at their draft status: Doucet: 3rd rd pick; Housler: 3rd rd pick) -------------------- Compare to our top-SIX reception leaders, who combined for 181 rec...thats ONE additional reception with twice as many players Kerley: 6th rd pick Cumberland: UDFA Keller: 1st rd pick (played 8 games last year) Schilens: FA (originally 7th rd pick) Holmes: 5th rd pick (originally 1st rd pick; played 4 games last year) Hill: Raaaaw 2nd rd pick (played 11 games) Other starters in 2012: Clyde Gates: FA; WR4 if he makes the team Jason Hill: FA; now in CFL Mardy Gilyard: FA; now in CFL Braylon Edwards: FA; unsigned Antonio Cromartie: 1st rd pick, but plays defense We've obviously placed an emphasis on defense, OL, and a mediocre QB with our top picks over the last five years... Our team reflects that. Even when we landed high caliber talent (Edwards/Holmes from 3 & 4 yrs ago) we didn't spend much to get them...yet we went to the AFCC because we had talent to surround Mark with. Unfortunately, Sanchez needs a WR who can make an acrobatic catch, and run a route...at least every now and then. For whatever reason last year we lost A LOT of players to the injury bug. (This happens occasionally to teams; last year was our turn). We lost our three top weapons (draft pick wise). Holmes, if you insist on including him because he WAS a high draft pick once, though we spent beans to get him. Hill (even though we knew he was a project player) ...and Keller (whose replacement, Cumberland, couldnt stay healthy either) exposed our offensive depth for the dismal shape it was in...and left our QB throwing to scrubs. Is Kolb better than Sanchez? I don't think so. But his former players are in the starting lineup in Arizona...while Sanchez' former players are in Canada, on the streets looking for work, still trying to walk, or learning how to catch from DBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Sanchez sucks, but it's hard to imagine a team doing worse by its #5 overall pick at QB than the Jets have with Sanchez. With an actual offensive coordinator and a RB or two who can catch the ball out of the backfield, Sanchez might manage mediocre before he gets the hook this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 As bad as Sanchez has been - you have to admit the receivers he had to work with last year was waiting for failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTM Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 My turds smell better than your turds. your turds smell like seamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Holy sh*t it's actually happening we're actually having this argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Sanchez sucks, but it's hard to imagine a team doing worse by its #5 overall pick at QB than the Jets have with Sanchez. With an actual offensive coordinator and a RB or two who can catch the ball out of the backfield, Sanchez might manage mediocre before he gets the hook this season. It really was a textbook way to f*ck up a young QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Sanchez sucks, but it's hard to imagine a team doing worse by its #5 overall pick at QB than the Jets have with Sanchez. With an actual offensive coordinator and a RB or two who can catch the ball out of the backfield, Sanchez might manage mediocre before he gets the hook this season. And if that's not enough, we can always blame the receivers again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 And if that's not enough, we can always blame the receivers again. Joe Nobody, or Whatshisface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kay_gee Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Sanchez sucks, but it's hard to imagine a team doing worse by its #5 overall pick at QB than the Jets have with Sanchez. With an actual offensive coordinator and a RB or two who can catch the ball out of the backfield, Sanchez might manage mediocre before he gets the hook this season. This. The offense the Jets put together last year was ridiculously bad. Greene was your #1 RB, Holmes your #1 receiver, and Keller your #1 TE. Holmes gets injured and suddenly you're relying on Jeremy Kerley as your #1, and Keller spends a lot of the time injured with, uh, Jeff Cumberland to replace him, and Greene has always actually been a #2. Not that Sanchez wasn't awful, but he had plenty of awful surrounding him to help him be extra awful. Sanchez is easily the biggest problem, but there wasn't much talent to go around. In terms of WRs, I still don't think there's much talent on the roster. Holmes, who knows when he'll be back. Kerley. Maybe Hill if he can learn to catch on a routine basis, and he was injured too at last check. Who else? Same for TE. There's Kellen Winslow Jr. (whose health is a question mark), Jeff Cumberland (again), and then the level of talent drops off into the abyss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 This. The offense the Jets put together last year was ridiculously bad. Greene was your #1 RB, Holmes your #1 receiver, and Keller your #1 TE. Holmes gets injured and suddenly you're relying on Jeremy Kerley as your #1, and Keller spends a lot of the time injured with, uh, Jeff Cumberland to replace him, and Greene has always actually been a #2. Not that Sanchez wasn't awful, but he had plenty of awful surrounding him to help him be extra awful. Sanchez is easily the biggest problem, but there wasn't much talent to go around. In terms of WRs, I still don't think there's much talent on the roster. Holmes, who knows when he'll be back. Kerley. Maybe Hill if he can learn to catch on a routine basis, and he was injured too at last check. Who else? Same for TE. Say it with me. Good quarterbacks make the talent around them better. Holmes and Keller, as bad as they have appeared to be here, were former 1st round picks for a reason. How quickly we forget how PERFECTLY the roster was constructed for a young QB in his first 2 seasons here. Great offensive line, great running game, and some talented receivers to go with a defense that kept giving the offense the ball back on 3 and outs. Yet he still sucked. It'd be nice to imagine how Sanchez would do with pro bowlers around him every season, but not only is that not feasible, it wouldn't have helped. Even 3 Megatrons would only help make Sanchez a mediocre QB at best. He'd still find ways to overthrow, miss the guy, or throw picks. Dude sucks and its stupid to keep hindsighting all this. The only regrets we should have are drafting Sanchez in the first place, then extending his contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Say it with me. Good quarterbacks make the talent around them better. Holmes and Keller, as bad as they have appeared to be here, were former 1st round picks for a reason. How quickly we forget how PERFECTLY the roster was constructed for a young QB in his first 2 seasons here. Great offensive line, great running game, and some talented receivers to go with a defense that kept giving the offense the ball back on 3 and outs. Yet he still sucked. Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, and Derrick Mason would have caused Joe Montana to hang himself from a shower rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, and Derrick Mason would have caused Joe Montana to hang himself from a shower rod. Braylon Edwards and Jerricho Cotchery were solid receivers before those guys ever arrived. And even those guys didn't cause problems UNTIL it was clear Sanchez couldn't hit them in stride if his life depended on it. Its funny that we also forget that Burress caught 8 TD's that season. Man, he's terrible. He came in on 1 year deal and did EXACTLY what we wanted out of him; be a dependable Red Zone target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kay_gee Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Say it with me. Good quarterbacks make the talent around them better. Holmes and Keller, as bad as they have appeared to be here, were former 1st round picks for a reason. How quickly we forget how PERFECTLY the roster was constructed for a young QB in his first 2 seasons here. Great offensive line, great running game, and some talented receivers to go with a defense that kept giving the offense the ball back on 3 and outs. Yet he still sucked. Please, we're going by who was a first round draft pick? Sanchez was a first round draft pick.The Jets gave Holmes a contract based on one catch that he didn't even make for them and has never been repeated. And Keller is extremely replaceable. I'm not saying Sanchez is good. I'm saying that the entire offensive side of roster lacks talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 "With better receivers, Sanchez may have been merely below-average as opposed to apocalyptically bad!" We're really picking the fly sh*t out of the pepper here, huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Please, we're going by who was a first round draft pick? Sanchez was a first round draft pick.The Jets gave Holmes a contract based on one catch that he didn't even make for them and has never been repeated. And Keller is extremely replaceable. I'm not saying Sanchez is good. I'm saying that the entire offensive side of roster lacks talent. And I say that a decent QB makes those weapons look better than they are. We loved Santonio and Braylon during that 2010 season. They won us games almost single-handedly. Holmes is a former Super Bowl MVP. Yet he underperformed with Sanchez under center. Whose fault is that, primarily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Braylon Edwards and Jerricho Cotchery were solid receivers before those guys ever arrived. And even those guys didn't cause problems UNTIL it was clear Sanchez couldn't hit them in stride if his life depended on it. Its funny that we also forget that Burress caught 8 TD's that season. Man, he's terrible. He came in on 1 year deal and did EXACTLY what we wanted out of him; be a dependable Red Zone target. And he was on the street until the Steelers got desperate late last year. Sanchez is ******* horrible, but the way Tannenbaum and Rex handled him was also absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kay_gee Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 And I say that a decent QB makes those weapons look better than they are. We loved Santonio and Braylon during that 2010 season. They won us games almost single-handedly. Holmes is a former Super Bowl MVP. Yet he underperformed with Sanchez under center. Whose fault is that, primarily? Fine. Let's let Geno Smith start Week 1 with this Super Bowl roster around him. It's gonna be GREAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Fine. Let's let Geno Smith start Week 1 with this Super Bowl roster around him. It's gonna be GREAT. lol. How many of these great young QB's are coming into the league with Super Bowl talent around them? Andrew Luck certainly doesn't. Nor does RGIII. Geno can have success if he's any good regardless of the weapons, because good QB's don't need Pro Bowlers at every position. No one knows what Geno can do yet, but he can't do much worse than Sanchez. And next offseason, we'll have $50 million in cap space and tons of draft picks to build around him if he's the guy. What's more, Idzik seems to know what he's doing. He seemed to have the right idea when he and the Seattle FO brought in Russell Wilson at Seattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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