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ESPN : Is Mark Sanchez Better Then Kevin Kolb?


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And I say that a decent QB makes those weapons look better than they are.

 

Holmes and Braylon did okay with Sanchez in 2010.  The same Sanchez who suddenly was unable to hit anyone in stride starting in 2011.

 

Plaxico was a key Red Zone receiver, but was not effective outside of it.  We let Braylon, a full time receiver, go away and then replaced him with an aging receiver who was only good for Red Zone situations, a role player.

 

Interesting that Braylon, who got injured and did not do well after leaving the Jets, returned for the last four games and, coming in cold, caught 10 passes for 125 yards while the rest of the passing game was spiralling downward.

 

One more thing-early in his career, Eli Manning was quite useless unless he was throwing to a younger Plaxico.  The Giants were so aware of this that one year Plaxico was so injured he couldn't even practice, but the team suited him up on Sundays and played him for Eli Manning to throw to.  Not for one game-for most of the season. You know the adage-you don't practice you don't play.  The Giants knew Eli needed Plaxico on the field so badly that they went against that. 

 

From that rapport with Plaxico Manning grew and then no longer needed Plaxico, though he would have loved to have him.  Timing and confidence between the QB and his receivers, or even ONE key receiver, is absolutely key in many cases to a QB's growth.

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Holmes and Braylon did okay with Sanchez in 2010.  The same Sanchez who suddenly was unable to hit anyone in stride starting in 2011.

 

Plaxico was a key Red Zone receiver, but was not effective outside of it.  We let Braylon, a full time receiver, go away and then replaced him with an aging receiver who was only good for Red Zone situations. 

 

Interesting that Braylon, who got injured and did not do well after leaving the Jets, returned for the last four games and, coming in cold, caught 10 passes for 125 yards while the rest of the passing game was spiralling downward.

 

One more thing-early in his career, Eli Manning was quite useless unless he was throwing to a younger Plaxico.  The Giants were so aware of this that one year Plaxico was so injured he couldn't even practice, but the team suited him up on Sundays and played him for Eli Manning to throw to.  Not for one game-for most of the season. You know the adage-you don't practice you don't play.  The Giants knew Eli needed Plaxico on the field so badly that they went against that. 

 

From that rapport with Plaxico Manning grew and then no longer needed Plaxico, though he would have loved to have him.  Timing and confidence between the QB and his receivers, or even ONE key receiver, is absolutely key in many cases to a QB's growth.

 

Excellent example. 

 

Last year, Sanchez chose Holmes.  

 

He did this despite the well documented locker-room rift between them from the previous year.  They made amends, attended to each other's egos and looked set to leave the 6-10 season behind them.  Unfortunately, due to injury, this only lasted for four games. However, the four games they DID play together didn't go as planned either.  Sanchez leaned on Holmes (the way Eli did Plaxico), and Holmes was inconsistent.  He ran wrong routes, he dropped balls, yet he continued to be fed the football.  

 

week1 (BUF): Holmes had 4 catches on 8 targets.

week2 (PIT): Holmes had 3 catches on 11 targets.

week3 (MIA): Holmes had 14 targets, and reeled in 9 of them, for 147 yards.   

week4 (SF): 8 targets, 4 catches in 3 quarters of play.  

 

20 catches, on 41 targets

Our teams undisputed,  #1 defacto WR, who was getting the lion-share of the passes, couldn't reel in 50% of them.  

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Off topic, but mentioned in the article, I think Weeden has been getting piled on unfairly.

Regardless of age, the guy was still just a rookie. All the games I saw he was decent enough and he has an absolute rocket for an arm. I think he makes a huge improvement this year.

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Braylon Edwards and Jerricho Cotchery were solid receivers before those guys ever arrived.  And even those guys didn't cause problems UNTIL it was clear Sanchez couldn't hit them in stride if his life depended on it.  Its funny that we also forget that Burress caught 8 TD's that season.  Man, he's terrible.  He came in on 1 year deal and did EXACTLY what we wanted out of him; be a dependable Red Zone target.

I'm not sure I understand this post.  You phase it as if there was a lot of trouble between Sanchez, Cotchery, and Edwards.  I can't remember any.  Edwards has repeatly  asked to come back to the Jets.  Both of these guys did much better with Sanchez then they have done with their present teams, and "great QB's

 

Edwards  2009-2010 with Sanchez

 

Games    Receptions    Average  TD

28              88                  16.3      11

 

Last 2 years without Sanchez

 

19               23                  10.7       1

 

 

Cotchery   2009-2010   With Sanchez

 

28               98                   13.3       5

 

Last 2 years without Sanchez

 

27              33                     13.4        4

 

 

Both players performed significantly better with Sanchez, then the QB's they played with later

 

 Not much of a Sanchez fan, Just saying

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Right. Sanchez had MORE time to find LESS quality receivers, and suffered statistically. Makes sense to me.

I know you can't equate player talent with draft status; gems can sometimes be found in later rounds. But it does give a good indication of where the team has placed it's priority in building the roster.

Compare:

ARI top-3 reception leaders combined for 180 rec.

Fitzgerald: 1st rd pick

Floyd: 1st rd pick

Roberts: 3rd rd pick

(The next two in line still had more rec than our second best ...and look at their draft status:

Doucet: 3rd rd pick; Housler: 3rd rd pick)

--------------------

Compare to our top-SIX reception leaders, who combined for 181 rec...thats ONE additional reception with twice as many players

Kerley: 6th rd pick

Cumberland: UDFA

Keller: 1st rd pick (played 8 games last year)

Schilens: FA (originally 7th rd pick)

Holmes: 5th rd pick (originally 1st rd pick; played 4 games last year)

Hill: Raaaaw 2nd rd pick (played 11 games)

Other starters in 2012:

Clyde Gates: FA; WR4 if he makes the team

Jason Hill: FA; now in CFL

Mardy Gilyard: FA; now in CFL

Braylon Edwards: FA; unsigned

Antonio Cromartie: 1st rd pick, but plays defense

We've obviously placed an emphasis on defense, OL, and a mediocre QB with our top picks over the last five years... Our team reflects that. Even when we landed high caliber talent (Edwards/Holmes from 3 & 4 yrs ago) we didn't spend much to get them...yet we went to the AFCC because we had talent to surround Mark with. Unfortunately, Sanchez needs a WR who can make an acrobatic catch, and run a route...at least every now and then.

For whatever reason last year we lost A LOT of players to the injury bug. (This happens occasionally to teams; last year was our turn).

We lost our three top weapons (draft pick wise). Holmes, if you insist on including him because he WAS a high draft pick once, though we spent beans to get him. Hill (even though we knew he was a project player) ...and Keller (whose replacement, Cumberland, couldnt stay healthy either) exposed our offensive depth for the dismal shape it was in...and left our QB throwing to scrubs.

Is Kolb better than Sanchez? I don't think so. But his former players are in the starting lineup in Arizona...while Sanchez' former players are in Canada, on the streets looking for work, still trying to walk, or learning how to catch from DBs.

 

 

i get all that but i think where we differ is i think O line has the higher importance where you think WR's are more important

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i get all that but i think where we differ is i think O line has the higher importance where you think WR's are more important

No, I believe OL is first and foremost.

We are set in that category; top-10 since Mangini, IIRC.

But if you take Holmes outta the equation (like he did in week-4 last year), I challenge you to find a worse WR corp in the NFL. Look, Mark Sanchez isn't a world-beater, but giving him the league's worst receiving corp 1-3, does him no favors.

Kolb with Fitzgerald (a perennial probowler) was a bottom-5 QB. I think Sanchez with Fitzgerald could be top-16.

He can spin it. Just can't always hit moving targets in a way that promotes yac.

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I just don't think that we'd see a dramatic difference with any QB you put in with this crowd. There will most likely be some improvement, but unless you're putting in someone like Brady (and most QBs are not like Brady), I don't think we're going to get the major difference you seem to think we will.

 

Sanchez IS bad - an even average Sanchez gets us to the playoffs in 2011 and at least close in 2012 - but there are/were a number of guys on the roster who are/were, arguably, not professional-caliber football players. If you're trying to hide a bad QB, the smart thing is not to surround him with questionable talent. Would more weapons improve Sanchez that much? No. A good QB makes their receivers better, but good receivers also bail out their QB from time to time, something our receivers don't seem capable of doing.

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The last 2 seasons Sanchez is about 50% more likely than Kolb is to throw an interception.

 

31 starts the last 2 years (after he had 2 years starting experience under his belt).  26 of those 31 games he had at least one interception or fumble (or both).  He hasn't earned the right to say he is definitively better than anyone.

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lol. How many of these great young QB's are coming into the league with Super Bowl talent around them? Andrew Luck certainly doesn't. Nor does RGIII. Geno can have success if he's any good regardless of the weapons, because good QB's don't need Pro Bowlers at every position. No one knows what Geno can do yet, but he can't do much worse than Sanchez. And next offseason, we'll have $50 million in cap space and tons of draft picks to build around him if he's the guy.

What's more, Idzik seems to know what he's doing. He seemed to have the right idea when he and the Seattle FO brought in Russell Wilson at Seattle.

Pardon sir, RG3 had Santana Moss, Pierre Garcon for a couple weeks, and Alfred fukin Morris.

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Pardon sir, RG3 had Santana Moss, Pierre Garcon for a couple weeks, and Alfred fukin Morris.

 

Are you serious with this?  Were these guys highly regarded coming into last season?  Garcon was a slot receiver who, as you state, was only available for a few weeks last year.  Alfred Morris was a 6th round pick.  And Santana is how old now?  

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Are you serious with this? Were these guys highly regarded coming into last season? Garcon was a slot receiver who, as you state, was only available for a few weeks last year. Alfred Morris was a 6th round pick. And Santana is how old now?

unfortunately I believe he is.. a decent qb woukd've run a decent offense with the same talent

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Are you serious with this? Were these guys highly regarded coming into last season? Garcon was a slot receiver who, as you state, was only available for a few weeks last year. Alfred Morris was a 6th round pick. And Santana is how old now?

Um buddy. Morris went to the Pro Bowl. If those three were on our roster, the hype on this board would be impossible to deal with. And that's only possession players. They sent an offensive lineman and three linebackers to the PB as well. I would say it would be fair to say that RG3 had a couple pieces coming in, whether the media realized it or not.

Actually while we are at it.... RG3 had a future HOF head coach and the pistol offense which was built to suit that offense, where all Sanchez has ever known was Rex, Shotty, Sporano, and three offenses that he had to learn almost every year, Shottys playbook being about *this wide* with no flexibility... I think he would've done better in the pistol.

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Um buddy. Morris went to the Pro Bowl. If those three were on our roster, the hype on this board would be impossible to deal with. And that's only possession players. They sent an offensive lineman and three linebackers to the PB as well. I would say it would be fair to say that RG3 had a couple pieces coming in, whether the media realized it or not.

Actually while we are at it.... RG3 had a future HOF head coach and the pistol offense which was built to suit that offense, where all Sanchez has ever known was Rex, Shotty, Sporano, and three offenses that he had to learn almost every year, Shottys playbook being about *this wide* with no flexibility... I think he would've done better in the pistol.

 

It's pretty well known that running QB's help out their RB's.  Remember when Michael Vick had that great 2010 season, and McCoy rushed for 20 TD's?  RGIII had a "couple pieces" coming in, but he was by far the biggest reason they were a playoff team.  Period.  Unless you think Dan Snyder somehow figured out the right formula overnight after years of ineptitude.

 

Also, what traits does Sanchez exhibit have that suggest he would be successful running any version of offense, HoF coaches and supposed top talent and all?

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It's pretty well known that running QB's help out their RB's. Remember when Michael Vick had that great 2010 season, and McCoy rushed for 20 TD's? RGIII had a "couple pieces" coming in, but he was by far the biggest reason they were a playoff team. Period. Unless you think Dan Snyder somehow figured out the right formula overnight after years of ineptitude.

Also, what traits does Sanchez exhibit have that suggest he would be successful running any version of offense, HoF coaches and supposed top talent and all?

Before RG3 showed up, they had Rex Grossman as a starter. Grossman threw a ball straight into the dirt when we played them. Sanchez throws balls into linebackers. Same thing. You cannot say that just because RG3 came in and outperformed that situation that it solely belongs to him, when you had a QB prior that would not even cut it on top 10 college teams.

Like it was mentioned earlier, any competent QB could have come in and made a decent stand with that team. Any team that sends 5 guys to the PB is stacked better than average. It would have been six but we poached Landry. How many guys from New England went? That is an example of a QB lifting his team to another level. Same with Luck. And I hear you on Philly but that team was stacked to the moon too. Jackson had a historic year that year. Vick opened things up. But they do not call him Shady McCoy for nothing. Two years later, Vick was undergoing concussion treatment constantly and yet McCoy is still shredding defenses. Do not get me wrong...Griffin def overachieved his expectations. But it's not like you needed John Elway in there to field a .500 team.

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Garçon is actually a very good player when healthy.

As for RG3....a majority of his passing yards came off of playaction. With him presumably running less this season, I'm interested in seeing how he fares.

And McCoy is probably the most elusive player in the league...Vick wasn't the reason he's awesome.

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Garçon is actually a very good player when healthy.

As for RG3....a majority of his passing yards came off of playaction. With him presumably running less this season, I'm interested in seeing how he fares.

That is basically the pistol...PA 24/7
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