Sanchez And Smith: Last Round

[JoeKlecko]

If I were Idzik I'd be on the phone right  now trying to pry Kirk Cousins out of Washington.

Next training camp there could be a genuine QB competition between him, Geno and Simms.

 

I really like Kirk Cousins, but there's no way Washington would trade him with RG3 being so small and somewhat fragile.  The Jets would probably have to give up two #1s to pry him away from Washington.

 

Besides, that would be a sheer panic move and would be giving up on Geno already.  Makes no sense.  The Jets will have on the order of 10-11 draft picks next year and a TON of cap space.  That is the time to address the QB position if Geno doesn't show that he can be a quality starter, not now.

[bitonti]

So essentially, your argument is the Jets should have invested more than a year and at least $2.5M in a placeholder when they've already got an $8M placeholder on the roster.  Or, you're a big believer in Jason Campbell as a viable option.

 

So next year they have Geno and a draft pick, they still need a vet backup. these guys could have been backups to an ascendant Geno in future years. (Or Bridgewater or whoever).

 

2,5 M sounds like a lot of money but it's tiny compared to what the salary cap holds and how much QB's make on the FA market. They are gonna need more QBs and the vet min is in the same neighborhood.  It's not that much money to spend on a quality backup. 

[bitonti]

Then I'm glad you're not Idzik.  The very LAST thing he should do is panicking and trading away future draft picks. 

 

im gonna go on record, you are all underrating Nick Foles. He didn't win many games last year with Philly but he's a competent passer. That was a good draft pick by Andy Reid, and there's a reason why Kelly kept him. He almost beat Vick for the job this year and when (not if) Vick goes down, you will see what he can do.  he completed 60% of his passes as a rookie and stands 6'6". He was a 70% passer at Arizona. 

[JoeKlecko]

I will say one thing I don't care who starts but if geno is named week 1 starter they need to cut Sanchez and move on it will be better for the whole team

 

They can't.  There's this little thing called the salary cap. 

[ZachEY]

you  can choose to believe this or not but once it became clear that Revis really was signing for 16 mil a year, every year, i did not support resigning him. the contract he signed with Tampa Bay is ludicrous. I thought they could work out a reasonable deal but in fact there was no reasonable deal. I hold no grudge for the Jets losing Revis. 

 

Last I read from you that was not the case.... But, I'll believe you now, because it was the right move.

[ZachEY]

So next year they have Geno and a draft pick, they still need a vet backup. these guys could have been backups to an ascendant Geno in future years. (Or Bridgewater or whoever).

 

2,5 M sounds like a lot of money but it's tiny compared to what the salary cap holds and how much QB's make on the FA market. They are gonna need more QBs and the vet min is in the same neighborhood.  It's not that much money to spend on a quality backup. 

 

Next year there will be the same kind of QBs available on the market... Quite possibly the same exact ones.  I agree it's not a lot of money, but we are still paying one QB quite a lot of money, so I understand and support the strategy, even though I actually think Hasselback would have been the better option.  Again, it's about opportunity lost, and I don't think any of those guys add something that we're desperately missing now, except my emotional attachment to not seeing sanchez play.

[JoeKlecko]

im gonna go on record, you are all underrating Nick Foles. He didn't win many games last year with Philly but he's a competent passer. That was a good draft pick by Andy Reid, and there's a reason why Kelly kept him. He almost beat Vick for the job this year and when (not if) Vick goes down, you will see what he can do. 

 

I'm not saying that Foles is bad, but trading for him would not be a move for a one-year fix.  Trading for Foles would be tantamount to admitting that they blew the pick they used on Geno.  It would cost probably their #1 pick next year, plus another pick and for what...so the team could win 2-3 more games this season?  Why?  Just accept the fact that this is gonna be a rebuilding year and probably not be very pretty.  Is Foles really the guy you want starting going forward?  He may be a quality backup or slightly above average starter, but again is that who you want the Jets committing to as their QB of the future?  If they traded for him, that would be the case.

 

The only sensible thing imo is to just let this year play out.  See what Geno can do.  If he doesn't prove that he can be a quality starting QB, then they'll have the draft picks next year to go get the guy they want and will have the cap $s to sign a quality veteran backup QB.  This year, they'd only be throwing good money after bad.

[T0mShane]

"Hi, David. How would you like to join our team this year and possibly compete for the starting QB job?"

"I'd love the opportunity, thanks." <takes physical, signs contract, shows up to minicamp, quits>

Fans: "OMG INCOMPETENCE"

[Matt39]

"Hi, David. How would you like to join our team this year and possibly compete for the starting QB job?"

"I'd love the opportunity, thanks." <takes physical, signs contract, shows up to minicamp, quits>

Fans: "OMG INCOMPETENCE"

 

If only MIke Goodson hadn't fallen asleep. Then it'd just be a typical NFL players Saturday night.

[T0mShane]

If only MIke Goodson hadn't fallen asleep. Then it'd just be a typical NFL players Saturday night.

Ha. Truth.

[slats]

I will say one thing I don't care who starts but if geno is named week 1 starter they need to cut Sanchez and move on it will be better for the whole team

 

Sanchez has a guaranteed $8M contract with no offset language. He's not going anywhere.

 

Now you're making more sense.  I like Campbell and wanted the Jets to sign him.  As a player, I think he is/was a better choice than Garrard, but as a mentor, I think I'd have to give the nod to Garrard.  I think that Idzik really thought/hoped that Geno would either start game 1 or by the mid-point of the season, so he thought he needed more of a mentor rather than player.  That could be totally offbase, but even if it isn't, I'm not sure that was a smart decision because injuries happen all the time, and every team needs a capable backup.  Even if Geno did start the season or was ready and starting by game 3, if he got injured and Garrard was also injured, then what good would he have been?

 

I'm not gonna kill Idzik for that move, but do agree that Campbell would have been a better move, but of course that's in hindsight (even though he's the QB I wanted the Jets to sign as soon as last season ended).

 

The Jets signed Garrard a few weeks before the draft, long before they knew which QB they'd be drafting. So the mentor thing really shouldn't've been coming into play as much there as simply trying to find an alternative starter to Sanchez.

 

"Hi, David. How would you like to join our team this year and possibly compete for the starting QB job?"

"I'd love the opportunity, thanks." <takes physical, signs contract, shows up to minicamp, quits>

Fans: "OMG INCOMPETENCE"

The guy hadn't played in two years. You don't sign a guy like that without knowing 100% that he's ready to play. We're talking QB here. Pretty important position.

[T0mShane]

Sanchez has a guaranteed $8M contract with no offset language. He's not going anywhere.

The Jets signed Garrard a few weeks before the draft, long before they knew which QB they'd be drafting. So the mentor thing really shouldn't've been coming into play as much there as simply trying to find an alternative starter to Sanchez.

The guy hadn't played in two years. You don't sign a guy like that without knowing 100% that he's ready to play. We're talking QB here. Pretty important position.

I think when he signed the contract, assuming he was willing to play became a safe assumption.

[JoeKlecko]

 

Sanchez has a guaranteed $8M contract with no offset language. He's not going anywhere.

  

The Jets signed Garrard a few weeks before the draft, long before they knew which QB they'd be drafting. So the mentor thing really shouldn't've been coming into play as much there as simply trying to find an alternative starter to Sanchez.

 

The guy hadn't played in two years. You don't sign a guy like that without knowing 100% that he's ready to play. We're talking QB here. Pretty important position.

 

True and good point.  In that case, I think he definitely should have gone with Campbell or someone other than Garrard.

 

That said, I think Idzik planned to take a QB in the draft.  I don't think he knew that they'd be able to get Smith, but I think he would have taken a QB in the 3rd or 5th round, maybe have even traded up in the 4th.  I have no evidence for any of that, but know that if I were the new GM and was taking over a team with a QB who sucked as much as Sanchez does and the only other QBs on the roster were a noodle armed kid and a kid with a gun, but not much else at the moment, I would have been looking to add a QB via the draft.

[T0mShane]

True and good point. In that case, I think he definitely should have gone with Campbell or someone other than Garrard.

That said, I think Idzik planned to take a QB in the draft. I don't think he knew that they'd be able to get Smith, but I think he would have taken a QB in the 3rd or 5th round, maybe have even traded up in the 4th. I have no evidence for any of that, but know that if I were the new GM and was taking over a team with a QB who sucked as much as Sanchez does and the only other QBs on the roster were a noodle armed kid and a kid with a gun, but not much else at the moment, I would have been looking to add a QB via the draft.

Meh. He passed on Geno twice in the first round and didn't bother trying to trade up for him in the second, so I don't think Idzik had any premeditated thought of grabbing a QB, especially given Rex's status. You generally like to give your permanent head coach a voice in picking his QB.

[slats]

I think when he signed the contract, assuming he was willing to play became a safe assumption.

When you sign a QB who hasn't stepped on the field in two years, with the idea that he's going to compete for the starting position, you need to be 100% certain that QB is going to be available to play. Assumptions don't rate in that scenario. Only certainty does.

A retired Garrard is 100% worthless to the franchise.

They could've cheaply signed a guy like Campbell or Gradkowski, who'd also be a viable veteran backup for the next couple years. Something they're going to need next offseason now.

[sourceworx]

Wow bit. You've said plenty of stupid things in the past, but you're really out-doing yourself here.

Trading for any QB at this point would be asinine. This season is about setting us up for the future, not pissing draft picks away on stupid, knee-jerk trades that will do little to improve our chances of going anywhere this year.

Play Sanchez for a few weeks, then put Geno in when he's ready.

[slats]

Meh. He passed on Geno twice in the first round and didn't bother trying to trade up for him in the second, so I don't think Idzik had any premeditated thought of grabbing a QB, especially given Rex's status. You generally like to give your permanent head coach a voice in picking his QB.

When Geno whined about not bothering to show up for the second day of the draft, the Jets told him not to worry about not being taken in the second round. I'm sure they fully intended to draft a QB. If they didn't, that would only serve to make the Garrard gaffe worse.

[bitonti]

"Hi, David. How would you like to join our team this year and possibly compete for the starting QB job?"

"I'd love the opportunity, thanks." <takes physical, signs contract, shows up to minicamp, quits>

Fans: "OMG INCOMPETENCE"

 

the Jets doctors really are the best.

[bitonti]

 Trading for any QB at this point would be asinine. This season is about setting us up for the future, not pissing draft picks away on stupid, knee-jerk trades that will do little to improve our chances of going anywhere this year.

 

 

Foles is more than a one year throw away guy. I don't think trading for him would be pissing away draft picks. But I also don't think the Eagles want to trade him, so we are arguing about a moot point. 

[T0mShane]

When you sign a QB who hasn't stepped on the field in two years, with the idea that he's going to compete for the starting position, you need to be 100% certain that QB is going to be available to play. Assumptions don't rate in that scenario. Only certainty does.

A retired Garrard is 100% worthless to the franchise.

They could've cheaply signed a guy like Campbell or Gradkowski, who'd also be a viable veteran backup for the next couple years. Something they're going to need next offseason now.

When you sign a QB who hasn't stepped on the field in two years, with the idea that he's going to compete for the starting position, you need to be 100% certain that QB is going to be available to play. Assumptions don't rate in that scenario. Only certainty does.

A retired Garrard is 100% worthless to the franchise.

They could've cheaply signed a guy like Campbell or Gradkowski, who'd also be a viable veteran backup for the next couple years. Something they're going to need next offseason now.

Judging by his other signings, Idzik was shopping for a stopgap player guaranteed to drop off the roster next year because I think it's clear that he's not the least bit concerned about fielding a competitive roster this year. None of these free agent signings are anything to write home about, to be sure, but if a guy up and quits--simply quits--you blame that guy. If Michael Vick quit, or Matt Hasselback or David Carr (all of whom have concussion histories) quit, we wouldn't be blaming their GMs.

[T0mShane]

When Geno whined about not bothering to show up for the second day of the draft, the Jets told him not to worry about not being taken in the second round. I'm sure they fully intended to draft a QB. If they didn't, that would only serve to make the Garrard gaffe worse.

And if the Jags, Titans, or Eagles drafted Geno before the Jets had their shot, who would have been their QB pick?

[slats]

Judging by his other signings, Idzik was shopping for a stopgap player guaranteed to drop off the roster next year because I think it's clear that he's not the least bit concerned about fielding a competitive roster this year. None of these free agent signings are anything to write home about, to be sure, but if a guy up and quits--simply quits--you blame that guy. If Michael Vick quit, or Matt Hasselback or David Carr (all of whom have concussion histories) quit, we wouldn't be blaming their GMs.

 

Were those guys on NFL rosters the last two years?

 

And if the Jags, Titans, or Eagles drafted Geno before the Jets had their shot, who would have been their QB pick?

I don't know, but they clearly entered the draft intending to take someone. Maybe Nassib? The Jets weren't going to fix all their problems this year, but there's no way the new GM wasn't going to do something to address the QB position.

[T0mShane]

Were those guys on NFL rosters the last two years?

Garrard was slated to be the Dolphins' starter 12 months ago.

I don't know, but they clearly entered the draft intending to take someone. Maybe Nassib? The Jets weren't going to fix all their problems this year, but there's no way the new GM wasn't going to do something to address the QB position.

The Jets needed WR, TE, OLB, FS, SS--all arguably more than they needed a QB (given Sanchez's contract status). They drafted none of those guys. If the new GM is even 50/50 on keeping the old coach beyond this year, it makes no sense to stick said coach with a rookie QB, and it makes less sense to stick the next coach with a quarterback who may or may not fit his system.

[slats]

Garrard was slated to be the Dolphins' starter 12 months ago.

Slated? How did that work out? When did Garrard last step foot on the field in a game that counted? What about the QBs you tried to compare him to?

The Jets needed WR, TE, OLB, FS, SS--all arguably more than they needed a QB (given Sanchez's contract status). They drafted none of those guys. If the new GM is even 50/50 on keeping the old coach beyond this year, it makes no sense to stick said coach with a rookie QB, and it makes less sense to stick the next coach with a quarterback who may or may not fit his system.

Idzik did draft a QB in the second round. Not sure how you construct an argument about how he wouldn't draft a QB. He did. If Geno isn't there, there isn't any way I see him not taking a QB by the third round.

[T0mShane]

Slated? How did that work out? When did Garrard last step foot on the field in a game that counted? What about the QBs you tried to compare him to?

Garrard got injured last year. If Garrard incurred an injury this year and quit, then you'd have a point. Garrard simply quit. Idzik should have known that Garrard was going to up and quit? To reiterate: Garrard quit. Voluntarily.

Idzik did draft a QB in the second round. Not sure how you construct an argument about how he wouldn't draft a QB. He did. If Geno isn't there, there isn't any way I see him not taking a QB by the third round.

He also took a defensive end in the first round despite defensive end being the most stocked position on a thin roster. He picked BAP as you yourself have stated many times. Geno happened to be his BAP when his pick came up. Did Idzik also have a premeditated plan to draft a fullback and a defensive tackle to turn into a guard?

[NCJETSFAN]

They can't. There's this little thing called the salary cap.

I believe we are abt 11 mil under and after June 1 u can spread it over 2 yrs

[dbatesman]

I don't know, but they clearly entered the draft intending to take someone. Maybe Nassib? The Jets weren't going to fix all their problems this year, but there's no way the new GM wasn't going to do something to address the QB position.

What are you basing this on, exactly?

[JoeKlecko]

Meh. He passed on Geno twice in the first round and didn't bother trying to trade up for him in the second, so I don't think Idzik had any premeditated thought of grabbing a QB, especially given Rex's status. You generally like to give your permanent head coach a voice in picking his QB.

 

You may be right.  I don't think he necessarily planned to pick one high, but think he may have planned to take on in a mid-to-lower round as a developmental prospect, then Smith fell into his lap.  I do recall, however, Idzik saying that they were very high on Smith and thought about taking him in the first round or trading up for him in the 2nd or late 1st, so that sounds as if they had targeted Smith.

[Greenseed4]

Lets see how badly Geno craps the bed when he's playing a live game before declaring him the savior of the franchise.  There has to be a reason (aside from blind loyalty and bad tattoos) that has Rex Ryan continuing to clamor for Sanchez. 

 

We saw the Geno kid run, what, 9 plays (??) in a situation where he could actually get tackled, and he injured himself running in the open field.  Perhaps the FO just needs to see the kid take a hit and get up before declaring either one the starter. 

 

For all his mental lapses and accuracy woes, one thing we do know about Sanchez is that he can take a hit...and get up. This position requires mettle.  We don't know if Geno has that (at this level) yet. 

[T0mShane]

There has to be a reason (aside from blind loyalty and bad tattoos) that has Rex Ryan continuing to clamor for Sanchez.

SPOILER ALERT: it's because Rex Ryan is a moron.

[T0mShane]

You may be right. I don't think he necessarily planned to pick one high, but think he may have planned to take on in a mid-to-lower round as a developmental prospect, then Smith fell into his lap. I do recall, however, Idzik saying that they were very high on Smith and thought about taking him in the first round or trading up for him in the 2nd or late 1st, so that sounds as if they had targeted Smith.

Isn't that what every team says about their draft picks?

[dbatesman]

Lets see how badly Geno craps the bed when he's playing a live game before declaring him the savior of the franchise. There has to be a reason (aside from blind loyalty and bad tattoos) that has Rex Ryan continuing to clamor for Sanchez.

We saw the Geno kid run, what, 9 plays (??) in a situation where he could actually get tackled, and he injured himself running in the open field. Perhaps the FO just needs to see the kid take a hit and get up before declaring either one the starter.

For all his mental lapses and accuracy woes, one thing we do know about Sanchez is that he can take a hit...and get up. This position requires mettle. We don't know if Geno has that (at this level) yet.

Boy, some of you guys are really gonna hold out until the bitter end, huh.

+ roflcopter @ "Rex must have a good reason for clamoring for Sanchez!"

[JoeKlecko]

Garrard was slated to be the Dolphins' starter 12 months ago.

The Jets needed WR, TE, OLB, FS, SS--all arguably more than they needed a QB (given Sanchez's contract status). They drafted none of those guys. If the new GM is even 50/50 on keeping the old coach beyond this year, it makes no sense to stick said coach with a rookie QB, and it makes less sense to stick the next coach with a quarterback who may or may not fit his system.

 

You have a point, but OTOH with QB being the most important position on the team, Sanchez sucking balls so badly, I think he believed he had to address the QB position regardless of who the HC and OC would be going forward.  If he does have Bevell in mind (maybe a secret handshake?) he could have run it by Bevell.  At any rate, unless Sims suddenly develops or they like McElroy more than I think they do, the Jets are going to need two QBs going forward...a starter and a backup.  If Smith develops but doesn't fit the new system, the Jets could always trade him for picks or use him as the backup, OR Idzik could hire a HC dependent upon the offensive system he wants to run (one that would fit Geno if he develops).  

 

If I were Idzik and pondering firing Rex, the last thing I would do would be to hire a HC who would use totally different offensive and defensive systems. That has killed the Jets enough, and with this being a rebuilding year, I don't think he'd want to add another year or two to the process.  I know I wouldn't.  Since a lot of the D players can fit either a 3-4 or 4-3, that's not such a big issue, but if Geno develops and proves to be the QB of the future, then it would be totally stupid to hire a new HC and OC who would bring in a new system that wouldn't fit Geno's skill set.  HCs and OCs are much easier to find than quality QBs.  You build your system around the QB's skills.

 

With regard to Rex, screw him.  He doesn't even watch the QBs during games or know what the offense is doing, so why would he be a consideration in drafting a QB?

[Greenseed4]

Boy, some of you guys are really gonna hold out until the bitter end, huh.

+ roflcopter @ "Rex must have a good reason for clamoring for Sanchez!"

 

roflcopter, hahaa nice!  (I'm stealing that).  

 

Idzik wanting "his" guy to succeed is understandable, he's a rookie GM.  He wants ALL of his picks to make him look good.  But Ryan is coaching for his livelihood.  If he thought Geno gives him the best chance to win, I've gotta assume he'd pull the trigger.  The fact that there seems to be a divide in the issue leads me to believe that Rex is uncertain if Geno can perform better than Sanchez at this point.  A major factor in that thought process HAS to be the unknown of how Geno responds in a game where he isn't wearing a red (no-contact) jersey.  His play against Detroit wasn't enough of a sample size to make that decision, regardless of how well he spins the ball. 

[dbatesman]

roflcopter, hahaa nice! (I'm stealing that).

Idzik wanting "his" guy to succeed is understandable, he's a rookie GM. He wants ALL of his picks to make him look good. But Ryan is coaching for his livelihood. If he thought Geno gives him the best chance to win, I've gotta assume he'd pull the trigger. The fact that there seems to be a divide in the issue leads me to believe that Rex is uncertain if Geno can perform better than Sanchez at this point. A major factor in that thought process HAS to be the unknown of how Geno responds in a game where he isn't wearing a red (no-contact) jersey. His play against Detroit wasn't enough of a sample size to make that decision, regardless of how well he spins the ball.

There's at least as much evidence that Rex is willing to die on the hill of His Guys as there isthar Geno's not ready to start.