The QB eye test

[T0mShane]

he does need time. the question is, will he get time or will he get thrown to the wolves?

These are the Jets. He'll get thrown.

[RSJ]

These are the Jets. He'll get thrown.

 

Thats just another reason why I would like to see Matt Simms. He has had a year of NFL under his belt. This is the Jets though. They will cut him and he will win multiple super bowls with the Pats.

[Gastineau Lives]

Thats just another reason why I would like to see Matt Simms. He has had a year of NFL under his belt. This is the Jets though. They will cut him and he will win multiple super bowls with the Pats.

GTFOH Chris Simms, Matt Sims, Sy Syms. None of them are winning a Super Bowl.

[JoeKlecko]

I disagree. There a million guys who have a strong arm and throw a nice spiral. They are not all NFL QB's. There is a certain look to an NFL QB, the way they drop back, the way they survey the field, the way they deliver the ball, the way they act, I did not see that from Geno. I could be dead wrong, and hope I am, but that is just what I observed.

 

I'm not ragging on your eye test.  I can understand how Geno might look that way to you.  In the end you may be proven right, but I think it's awfully early to make that assessment of him.  I have a few questions for you and a few points that I hope you'll consider.

 

One, you do realize that around 90-95% of the snaps took in college were in the shotgun, don't you?  Thus he never had to worry about footwork, dropping back and/or surveying the field while he was focusing on his number of steps and their being in the right order.  In addition, that's made more complex because the WCO is such a timing based system.  If you read that article the other day that Tom posted it talked about this very kind of thing and how tricky that can be for a lot of QBs who aren't used to it.  It's one thing to practice focusing on taking the correct number of steps, looking for your receiver and throwing the ball knowing you won't get hit.  It's quite another in the pressure of a real game when you know the opposing defense is looking to take your head off.

 

Two, do you know that the offense Geno played in at WVU is akin to sandlot football?  There were four basic plays and Geno would call the play at the LOS.  A lot of their passes were of the shorter variety.  The WCO is a very complex system and the Jets use a number of different formations and wrinkles, with more routes.  Trying to remember all that at NFL speed, while not feeling natural and comfortable trying to spot your receivers while focusing on the right footwork, are enough to make anyone look bad at first, particularly at NFL speed.

 

Three, NFL defenses are a lot more complex, they disguise coverages more, and the players are bigger, faster, stronger and more skilled.  That in itself is an adjustment for all rookies.  Factor in having to change the basic fundamentals of the position of how he gets the ball on the snap, how and when he has to throw it, and remembering where all the offensive players are supposed to be is enough to make anyone struggle.

 

We know that Geno is VERY accurate and rarely threw interceptions in college.  I think that once he gets comfortable with his fundamentals, really knows the offense, then his confidence will be higher, he'll be more relaxed and able to let his talent take over.  He's still having to think too much.  This kind of struggles and play is the exact kind of thing that can erode his confidence.  It's why a lot of player fail.  They feel uncomfortable when trying to learn/master the new techniques or fundamentals they are taught, and rather than being patient and working harder and harder, many revert back to their old way of playing so they can feel more comfortable, yet that old way of playing won't work in the NFL.

 

Lee and Mornhinweg (and Idzik!) need to be patient with Geno.  Baby steps.  They need to have him focus on the fundamentals only until those are solidly ingrained and come naturally to him.  Then they can work with him on reading Ds, looking off receivers, etc.  Then once he can consistently do that in practice without any hiccups, then they can think about starting him.

 

That's why I've steadfastly maintained that Geno is not ready and shouldn't be forced onto the field too early.  He needs time for these new techniques to become ingrained into his muscle memory so that they feel natural and ARE natural, and he doesn't have to think about them.  Then he's free to focus on reading the D.

[LionelRichie]

 You know who passed the "eye test"?   Browning Nagle.    Dude just looked like he was born to play QB in the NFL....now he's passing the eye test as a realtor.  

 

You know who didn't pass the "eye test"?   Russell Wilson...which is why he was a 3rd rd pick.   How about Tom Brady?   Almost wasn't even drafted at all.   

[dbatesman]

Thats just another reason why I would like to see Matt Simms. He has had a year of NFL under his belt.

wait what

[Gastineau Lives]

 You know who passed the "eye test"?   Browning Nagle.    Dude just looked like he was born to play QB in the NFL....now he's passing the eye test as a realtor.  

 

You know who didn't pass the "eye test"?   Russell Wilson...which is why he was a 3rd rd pick.   How about Tom Brady?   Almost wasn't even drafted at all.   

No, don't you see, everybody is a ******* scout with an innate ability to tell greatness when they see it. In HD.

[bitonti]

 You know who didn't pass the "eye test"?   Russell Wilson...which is why he was a 3rd rd pick.   How about Tom Brady?   Almost wasn't even drafted at all.   

 

the eye test before they play and the eye test during their play are two vastly different tests. this thread is about what we just saw. Not what we wished we saw. 

[Damaged89]

No, don't you see, everybody is a ******* scout with an innate ability to tell greatness when they see it. In HD.

 

lol THIS.

 

 

Everyone needs to take a deep breath.  Geno looked like dog sh*t in his first preaseason start.  So what?  I remember Mark Sanchez looking great in week 1 of the 2009 regular season.  Give it a few weeks and then we can all collectively rush to judgement and be wrong.

 

The nice thing is that the team isn't married to Geno.  He's going to get his chance sooner or later this year, and at the end of the season Idzik can decide whether he really is the future or if he needs to pick another QB.

[JoeKlecko]

These are the Jets. He'll get thrown.

 

Of course he will, if for no other reason than Idzik supposedly wants him to.  If it is true that Idzik has been forcing the issue with Geno, then I will lose a lot of respect for him and the job he's done so far.  I know that will make him cry.

[Lupz27]

You know who passed the "eye test"? Browning Nagle. Dude just looked like he was born to play QB in the NFL....now he's passing the eye test as a realtor.

You know who didn't pass the "eye test"? Russell Wilson...which is why he was a 3rd rd pick. How about Tom Brady? Almost wasn't even drafted at all.

But Brady was lucky enough to work out in a certain SF gym that Barry Bonds worked out in after his rookie season, and the rest is history!

[RSJ]

GTFOH Chris Simms, Matt Sims, Sy Syms. None of them are winning a Super Bowl.

 

Chris Simms, not so much - but Phil did. And tbh Phil is more similar to Matt, than Chris is.

[Gastineau Lives]

Chris Simms, not so much - but Phil did. And tbh Phil is more similar to Matt, than Chris is.

To be honest, I can't really tell. I've never seen Phil play third stringers.

[RSJ]

To be honest, I can't really tell. I've never seen Phil play third stringers.

 

You do know that Simms was a second string QB early in his career, right? And that his stats in college were low and terrible? There are a lot of similarities, not that it means they will have the same careers.

[WeebKnows]

I'm not ragging on your eye test.  I can understand how Geno might look that way to you.  In the end you may be proven right, but I think it's awfully early to make that assessment of him.  I have a few questions for you and a few points that I hope you'll consider.

 

One, you do realize that around 90-95% of the snaps took in college were in the shotgun, don't you?  Thus he never had to worry about footwork, dropping back and/or surveying the field while he was focusing on his number of steps and their being in the right order.  In addition, that's made more complex because the WCO is such a timing based system.  If you read that article the other day that Tom posted it talked about this very kind of thing and how tricky that can be for a lot of QBs who aren't used to it.  It's one thing to practice focusing on taking the correct number of steps, looking for your receiver and throwing the ball knowing you won't get hit.  It's quite another in the pressure of a real game when you know the opposing defense is looking to take your head off.

 

Two, do you know that the offense Geno played in at WVU is akin to sandlot football?  There were four basic plays and Geno would call the play at the LOS.  A lot of their passes were of the shorter variety.  The WCO is a very complex system and the Jets use a number of different formations and wrinkles, with more routes.  Trying to remember all that at NFL speed, while not feeling natural and comfortable trying to spot your receivers while focusing on the right footwork, are enough to make anyone look bad at first, particularly at NFL speed.

 

Three, NFL defenses are a lot more complex, they disguise coverages more, and the players are bigger, faster, stronger and more skilled.  That in itself is an adjustment for all rookies.  Factor in having to change the basic fundamentals of the position of how he gets the ball on the snap, how and when he has to throw it, and remembering where all the offensive players are supposed to be is enough to make anyone struggle.

 

We know that Geno is VERY accurate and rarely threw interceptions in college.  I think that once he gets comfortable with his fundamentals, really knows the offense, then his confidence will be higher, he'll be more relaxed and able to let his talent take over.  He's still having to think too much.  This kind of struggles and play is the exact kind of thing that can erode his confidence.  It's why a lot of player fail.  They feel uncomfortable when trying to learn/master the new techniques or fundamentals they are taught, and rather than being patient and working harder and harder, many revert back to their old way of playing so they can feel more comfortable, yet that old way of playing won't work in the NFL.

 

Lee and Mornhinweg (and Idzik!) need to be patient with Geno.  Baby steps.  They need to have him focus on the fundamentals only until those are solidly ingrained and come naturally to him.  Then they can work with him on reading Ds, looking off receivers, etc.  Then once he can consistently do that in practice without any hiccups, then they can think about starting him.

 

That's why I've steadfastly maintained that Geno is not ready and shouldn't be forced onto the field too early.  He needs time for these new techniques to become ingrained into his muscle memory so that they feel natural and ARE natural, and he doesn't have to think about them.  Then he's free to focus on reading the D.

I have to agree here. Eli didn't start right away and came on and made some mistakes but got better. Give Sanchez until the bye and if things are going south let Geno take over. 

[Smashmouth]

I posted that sanchez stares down receivers, feels pressure that isn't there, has no instincts and can't extend plays.

 

someone who watched geno a lot said geno is the same player

 

thats kinda what I saw sat night

 

kinda scary

 

not to mention his fundementals suck as well. Strong arm means nothing if you can't step into the throw even when you have time. That's a huge concern and it tells me hes playing scared

[RSJ]

not to mention his fundementals suck as well. Strong arm means nothing if you can't step into the throw even when you have time. That's a huge concern and it tells me hes playing scared

 

Good call. He does drift back when he throws. Thats why the ball sails on him at times.

[Gastineau Lives]

You do know that Simms was a second string QB early in his career, right? And that his stats in college were low and terrible? There are a lot of similarities, not that it means they will have the same careers.

Yes, I remember it well, actually. He was a backup to Scott Bruner. I just don't know how, beyond the last name, and well, the blonde, they are similar. You're comparing one QB from one era who has won Super Bowls and had a Hall of Fame career to another who has played against third stringers in preseason, no matter what the last name is.

 

I doubt you, or anyone, ever MENTIONED Matt Simms before he played this preseason or even knew he was alive.

[#27TheDominator]

You do know that Simms was a second string QB early in his career, right? And that his stats in college were low and terrible? There are a lot of similarities, not that it means they will have the same careers.

 

 

Yes, I remember it well, actually. He was a backup to Scott Bruner. I just don't know how, beyond the last name, and well, the blonde, they are similar. You're comparing one QB from one era who has won Super Bowls and had a Hall of Fame career to another who has played against third stringers in preseason, no matter what the last name is.

 

I doubt you, or anyone, ever MENTIONED Matt Simms before he played this preseason or even knew he was alive.

 

 

Actually he wasn't.  Simms was starting before the midpoint of his rookie year.  He took over for Pisarcik and was the starter for 3 years.  He sucked.  The Jets demolished his knee in the preseason one year and the following year when he came back Parcells benched him for Brunner. If you want to talk about failing the eye test, Simms looked like a broken man when he first came up.  When Brunner got hurt, Parcells actually went to Rutledge over Simms.  Simms didn't have a winning record and "get it" until he was 30 years old.

[Gastineau Lives]

Actually he wasn't.  Simms was starting before the midpoint of his rookie year.  He took over for Pisarcik and was the starter for 3 years.  He sucked.  The Jets demolished his knee in the preseason one year and the following year when he came back Parcells benched him for Brunner. If you want to talk about failing the eye test, Simms looked like a broken man when he first came up.  When Brunner got hurt, Parcells actually went to Rutledge over Simms.  Simms didn't have a winning record and "get it" until he was 30 years old.

Wow, I didn't know that. All I remember was starting to watch football and Scott Brunner being the Giants QB and Simms was the backup.

[Sperm Edwards]

My memory of #12 was that Simms was injured every year.

[Integrity28]

GTFOH Chris Simms, Matt Sims, Sy Syms. None of them are winning a Super Bowl.

 

 

All this time I hadn't realized there was a difference between Chris and Matt, until this post ... now the sudden spark of potential makes sense. LOL

[RSJ]

Yes, I remember it well, actually. He was a backup to Scott Bruner. I just don't know how, beyond the last name, and well, the blonde, they are similar. You're comparing one QB from one era who has won Super Bowls and had a Hall of Fame career to another who has played against third stringers in preseason, no matter what the last name is.

 

I doubt you, or anyone, ever MENTIONED Matt Simms before he played this preseason or even knew he was alive.

 

Yeah, well being that it is his son, its easier to compare. Phil had a terrible college career at a terrible school (Moorehead State). He always looked tentative, something that drove Parcells nuts early in his career, and was a reason for his accuracy knock, and he had a pretty strong arm (although I think Matt's is stronger). So I see some similarities. You are right, I would not be saying this if it was not his son - but it is his son. Look, I never heard of Kurt Warner or Tony Romo either. If I had, I would probably be working in the NFL right now. All I'm saying here is that the kid deserves a chance.

[RSJ]

My memory of #12 was that Simms was injured every year.

 

Yeah I was very young then too. But I remember him always being hurt and Giants fans complaining that he was injury prone, inaccurate and not very smart.

[#27TheDominator]

Yeah I was very young then too. But I remember him always being hurt and Giants fans complaining that he was injury prone, inaccurate and not very smart.

 

 

He was all of those things. 

[Il Mostro]

Forget the eye test -- that has long been debunked as a viable means of evaluating QB talent.  Gotta go with the smell test.  Geno stinks!

[Big Blocker]

I don't know about the eye test and how predictive it really is, but I do have concerns about throwing Geno in there when he's not ready.  Bad experiences do not make players better, and if he is in there before he is at least somewhat more ready than he seems to be, that could make the situatino worse.

 

On the ohter hand the Jets will have to see how well he can do later in the season, at some point, to know whether they need to look elsewhere for a Qb next off season.  But that does not mean he needs to start now, and really if you look at the schedule, they should probably wait until game six or so.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Yeah... I was wrong! Very wrong!

 

Geno looked very much like an NFL QB yesterday. I was really pleasantly surprised how much in fact. He was for the most part very accurate, very poised, showed a very strong arm, and a lot of QB intelligence, taking what was there, throwing it away when it wasn't there, and running to keep some nice drives going.

 

He really should only get better with experience. If we can get him some game breakers too, we may have something special. I don't want to get carried away against a bad Bucs team who really gave us the game as much as we won it, but that said, Geno looks to be the real deal. I am very happy to admit when I am wrong! Sorry Geno!

[bitonti]

Yeah... I was wrong! Very wrong!

 

Geno looked very much like an NFL QB yesterday. I was really pleasantly surprised how much in fact. He was for the most part very accurate, very poised, showed a very strong arm, and a lot of QB intelligence, taking what was there, throwing it away when it wasn't there, and running to keep some nice drives going.

 

He really should only get better with experience. If we can get him some game breakers too, we may have something special. I don't want to get carried away against a bad Bucs team who really gave us the game as much as we won it, but that said, Geno looks to be the real deal. I am very happy to admit when I am wrong! Sorry Geno!

 

this is a nice mea culpa and the Jets won but geno had a bad strip sack at the 5, a terrible interception attempting to throw to ivory. he took an 18 yard sack to remove them from FG range. he missed several guys running free and wide open (early play when he threw at Revis instead of wide open winslow in the flat). He did some good things some bad things. people forget Mark Sanchez wins on opening day too. I am happy they won but it's way too early for "real deal"

[Matt39]

this is a nice mea culpa and the Jets won but geno had a bad strip sack at the 5, a terrible interception attempting to throw to ivory. he took an 18 yard sack to remove them from FG range. he missed several guys running free and wide open (early play when he threw at Revis instead of wide open winslow in the flat). He did some good things some bad things. people forget Mark Sanchez wins on opening day too. I am happy they won but it's way too early for "real deal"

 

The Jets shouldnt have been throwing the ball there.

[JoeKlecko]

Yeah... I was wrong! Very wrong!

 

Geno looked very much like an NFL QB yesterday. I was really pleasantly surprised how much in fact. He was for the most part very accurate, very poised, showed a very strong arm, and a lot of QB intelligence, taking what was there, throwing it away when it wasn't there, and running to keep some nice drives going.

 

He really should only get better with experience. If we can get him some game breakers too, we may have something special. I don't want to get carried away against a bad Bucs team who really gave us the game as much as we won it, but that said, Geno looks to be the real deal. I am very happy to admit when I am wrong! Sorry Geno!

 

Classy.  My hat is off to you.  All too often on these boards guys won't admit when they're wrong due to their ego/insecurities.

[sh4dy15]

Yeah... I was wrong! Very wrong!

 

Geno looked very much like an NFL QB yesterday. I was really pleasantly surprised how much in fact. He was for the most part very accurate, very poised, showed a very strong arm, and a lot of QB intelligence, taking what was there, throwing it away when it wasn't there, and running to keep some nice drives going.

 

He really should only get better with experience. If we can get him some game breakers too, we may have something special. I don't want to get carried away against a bad Bucs team who really gave us the game as much as we won it, but that said, Geno looks to be the real deal. I am very happy to admit when I am wrong! Sorry Geno!

This is a nice surprise on this board haha

I honestly think his ankle was maybe bothering him more than the Jets let on. It still might not even be 100% but it football so nobody is really ever 100%. He looked really good yesterday. He made a few mistakes but again they were correctable. The good definitely outweighed the bad yesterday. Each game I think we will see him progress. I thought for the most part his decision making was really good and the moment was never too big. Even after they hit that field goal he was on sideline clapping getting the offense ready to go.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Classy.  My hat is off to you.  All too often on these boards guys won't admit when they're wrong due to their ego/insecurities.

 

Thanks.

 

None of us are really experts, some are more knowledgeable than others for sure, but at the end of the day, even the worst NFL GM's, coaches and personnel people are 100 times more knowledgeable than we are. That does not mean they don't make horrible decisions at times, but its the fact.

 

We are fans, we get to sit on our keyboards and criticize. I am happy to throw my opinions out there, and happy to say when I am wright, or wrong.

[ZachEY]

Yeah... I was wrong! Very wrong!

 

Geno looked very much like an NFL QB yesterday. I was really pleasantly surprised how much in fact. He was for the most part very accurate, very poised, showed a very strong arm, and a lot of QB intelligence, taking what was there, throwing it away when it wasn't there, and running to keep some nice drives going.

 

He really should only get better with experience. If we can get him some game breakers too, we may have something special. I don't want to get carried away against a bad Bucs team who really gave us the game as much as we won it, but that said, Geno looks to be the real deal. I am very happy to admit when I am wrong! Sorry Geno!

 

The mob is fickle.

 

Looking forward to the flip flop after the first disaster, which will happen.

[Jetsfan80]

The mob is fickle.

 

Looking forward to the flip flop after the first disaster, which will happen.

 

Yep.  And probably this week.  And that's OK.