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The QB eye test


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#51 RSJ

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:46 PM

I think the fanbase as a whole has totally unrealistic expectations.    Geno is a rookie 2nd rd pick, basically the same spot the Jets drafted Kellen Clemens.  

 

I think Geno can realistically put up Tannehill numbers this year - who was a top 10 pick.    The question is would this fanbase be ok with "Tannehill #'s" and let Geno develop or would we revolt and demand someone else? 

 

That is a really great question. I think Tannehill's numers would be fine. Right now, and I know its early, Geno has a 54 qb rating, so Tannehill's numbers would be an improvement.


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#52 LionelRichie

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:47 PM

The difference is Clemens was never thought of as a potential number 1 overall pick. For much of last college football season, Smith was thought to be the top overall pick, even heading into the draft, nobody would have been shocked if Smith went 1 overall. There was literally no chance of that with Clemens.

STEAL OF THE DRAFT

JAWS HAD JETS CLEMENS RATED NO. 1 QB

By MARK CANNIZZARO


Ron Jaworski knows quarterbacks. He was a pretty good one in college, carved out a solid NFL career, and takes a lot of pride in his breakdown of QBs in his current role as an ESPN analyst.

Ask him about Kellen Clemens, the Jets' second-round pick out of Oregon, and you might be inclined to jump out of your shoes if you're a Jets fan.

"I watched every game of his college career, every throw he made, and based on game performance I had him rated No. 1 amongst the quarterbacks in this draft," Jaworski said of Clemens in a phone interview with The Post.

"I looked at one game and put my evaluation down and then looked at another and another, and as time went on I was blown away.
.....

"Clemens has a quick release, a strong arm, can make multiple throws, does a great job processing information and finding the open receiver, has the anticipation you need," Jaworski said. "All of those things were there. The one negative I saw was I didn't think he was consistent enough with the deep ball.

"I saw nothing but upside. I had him at No. 1, ahead of [Matt] Leinart, [Jay] Cutler and [Vince] Young and everyone else until I saw the [NFL] Combine tapes and was concerned, because he wasn't healthy. That put up a little red flag."

Clemens, who missed the last several games of the 2005 season with a broken left fibula and wasn't 100 percent at the Combine, said yesterday that he's fine, recovered and ready to go.

"All the intangibles are there," Jaworski said. "I talked to a number of coaches that worked him out and put him to the chalkboard and they were blown away by him. Seven or eight NFL head coaches said, from the neck up, this guy is the best guy in the draft.


Edited by LionelRichie, 26 August 2013 - 01:54 PM.

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#53 sh4dy15

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

The difference is Clemens was never thought of as a potential number 1 overall pick. For much of last college football season, Smith was thought to be the top overall pick, even heading into the draft, nobody would have been shocked if Smith went 1 overall. There was literally no chance of that with Clemens.

 

This explains in right here man. He wasn't a number 1 pick. Not only that, he didn't play in a pro style offense in college. Expectations have to be tempered. I would like to see him get the chance to start week 1 and see how he responds. I know others disagree but I definitely see potential.


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#54 RSJ

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:53 PM

This explains in right here man. He wasn't a number 1 pick. Not only that, he didn't play in a pro style offense in college. Expectations have to be tempered. I would like to see him get the chance to start week 1 and see how he responds. I know others disagree but I definitely see potential.

 

I was just hoping to see a few NFL throws. He has good zip on the ball - but he didn't make any of the throws Sanchez, and even Matt Simms have made so far in the pre season.


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#55 Jacked4JetsFB

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:54 PM

STEAL OF THE DRAFT

JAWS HAD JETS CLEMENS RATED NO. 1 QB

By MARK CANNIZZARO


Ron Jaworski knows quarterbacks. He was a pretty good one in college, carved out a solid NFL career, and takes a lot of pride in his breakdown of QBs in his current role as an ESPN analyst.

Ask him about Kellen Clemens, the Jets' second-round pick out of Oregon, and you might be inclined to jump out of your shoes if you're a Jets fan.

"I watched every game of his college career, every throw he made, and based on game performance I had him rated No. 1 amongst the quarterbacks in this draft," Jaworski said of Clemens in a phone interview with The Post.

"I looked at one game and put my evaluation down and then looked at another and another, and as time went on I was blown away.

"One thing I heard about the guy is that he's only 6-1 5/8. To that my next question was, 'Did you see the guy play?' "

Clemens yesterday was unveiled in a Jets uniform for the first time, wearing No. 6 as the club began its weekend rookie mini-camp at Hofstra.

Asked about his aspirations about being the Jets' starting quarterback, Clemens said, "I'd love to someday, but right now I've got a lot of work to do before I can really go out and contribute the way the Jets need to me to."

Asked to describe himself as a quarterback, Clemens said, "A team leader sort of guy, a competitor. I try not to talk about me too much."

Naysayers are quick to point out that Clemens is only about a half-inch taller than Brooks Bollinger, the third-string QB who became the Jets' starter last year when Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler were lost for the season in Week 3.

"It's not even close between [Clemens] and Bollinger and I don't mean to demean Brooks, because he can be a serviceable backup in this league," Jaworski said. "But Clemens is about 20 pounds heavier than Bollinger, has a much stronger arm, and has really strong legs and can break tackles. He doesn't go down easily."

Clemens was a more prolific passer in college than Bollinger, who was more a threat with his legs than his arm.

"Clemens has a quick release, a strong arm, can make multiple throws, does a great job processing information and finding the open receiver, has the anticipation you need," Jaworski said. "All of those things were there. The one negative I saw was I didn't think he was consistent enough with the deep ball.

"I saw nothing but upside. I had him at No. 1, ahead of [Matt] Leinart, [Jay] Cutler and [Vince] Young and everyone else until I saw the [NFL] Combine tapes and was concerned, because he wasn't healthy. That put up a little red flag."

Clemens, who missed the last several games of the 2005 season with a broken left fibula and wasn't 100 percent at the Combine, said yesterday that he's fine, recovered and ready to go.

"All the intangibles are there," Jaworski said. "I talked to a number of coaches that worked him out and put him to the chalkboard and they were blown away by him. Seven or eight NFL head coaches said, from the neck up, this guy is the best guy in the draft.

 

I remember this all very clearly, I remember being excited when Jaws was talking about him after the draft. That is not my point at all. Can you find one mock draft, or anything even close to an article saying in 05 or 06 that Clemens was expected to be the top overall pick in the draft? Hell, even one thing leading up to the draft predicting him going in the first round? Geno had a ton of those, and in fact, I don't think there was one mock draft that had him slipping to the 2nd round, though I could be wrong on that.


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#56 sh4dy15

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:55 PM

I was just hoping to see a few NFL throws. He has good zip on the ball - but he didn't make any of the throws Sanchez, and even Matt Simms have made so far in the pre season.

 

Yeah they didn't really open it up for him. It would be more concerning to me if they did open it up and he was throwing the ball all over the place. They were trying to keep it conservative to give him confidence and his overthinking each pass killed him.

 

Doesn't mean he cant make those throws though.


Edited by sh4dy15, 26 August 2013 - 01:56 PM.

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#57 RSJ

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:58 PM

Yeah they didn't really open it up for him. It would be more concerning to me if they did open it up and he was throwing the ball all over the place. They were trying to keep it conservative to give him confidence and his overthinking each pass killed him.

 

Doesn't mean he cant make those throws though.

 

Good point. Maybe it is the playcalling. Its totally possible. On a positive note, he did get knocked around a lot and didnt have that deer in the headlights look in his eyes.


Edited by RSJ, 26 August 2013 - 01:58 PM.

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#58 sh4dy15

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:03 PM

Good point. Maybe it is the playcalling. Its totally possible. On a positive note, he did get knocked around a lot and didnt have that deer in the headlights look in his eyes.

 

Yeah that was definitely a plus. His reaction after the game was good too. Not grading himself...just learning. I really believe he learned a lot Saturday and hopefully we get a chance to see it. All I am saying definitively is I am not counting him out at all from that one game. It's not possible.

 

He has learning to do and I personally would rather see him do it as the starter and see if he can learn quick.


Edited by sh4dy15, 26 August 2013 - 02:04 PM.

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#59 RSJ

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:10 PM

Yeah that was definitely a plus. His reaction after the game was good too. Not grading himself...just learning. I really believe he learned a lot Saturday and hopefully we get a chance to see it. All I am saying definitively is I am not counting him out at all from that one game. It's not possible.

 

He has learning to do and I personally would rather see him do it as the starter and see if he can learn quick.

 

I would rather see Simms at this point to be perfectly honest. If they called no plays (except the pick) that had NFL throws in them, then he should sit for a while. Plus he looks shorter then Brees out there which means he needs good pocket presence. Its just not his time yet imho.


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#60 sh4dy15

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

I mean here is a very simple question to those who are against Geno starting or don't think he can be  a viable QB in this league.....

 

This is Sanchez's stat line from the Cardinals game last year

 

 

Mark Sanchez 10/21 97 yds 0 TD

3 Ints

 

Can you really put up with this again? From a 5 year starter? I know its just one game but it was horrible!!! Its when I really was absolutely done with this bum.


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#61 pedro55

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:16 PM

I like Geno and I really want him to be good, but if he's not, he'll end up he costing the franchise roughly what Kellen Clemens did. nbd

Some of you are nuts, btw. The safety was indefensible.

 

 Depends.  KC was never talked about much, nobody cared, I don't think anybody thought he was 'the savior' and then they went all out for Favre.   He barely played his rookie year, he was thrown into the mix his second season, but more because Chad was Chad and Chad had the same injury issues he always had.   And after that, Favre came into the picture.

 

  People want Geno Smith to start day one.   Nobody expected KC to start in his third year in the NFL.   Huge difference.  So yeah KC came and went and nobody cared, but the guy was never really talked about outside a few Jets fans who got tired of injury prone noodle arm Chad.   Whereas the media is already all over Geno and many if not most fans want Geno to start ASAP.    If Geno winds up playing the next couple of seasons and isnt' any good,  it's far different than a guy who essentially was never even the starter for most of his Jets career.


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#62 flgreen

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:29 PM

the eye test is a real thing, for example Sheldon Richardson is a player who passes the eye test. As soon as you see him on the field you know he's special. 

 

Geno vs Mark we will look back at this as herpes vs crabs. Two bad options. 

Go with the crabs

 

Herpes are forever


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#63 johnnysd

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:56 PM

I thought his "eye test" rating improved as the game went on.  He actually played way better than the numbers suggest.


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#64 jetsjetsjetss

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:01 PM

maybe im just not following the nfl closely cause im at school but what if geno played like a rookie can someone tell me what other rookie played as bad as him and is expected to start?


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#65 Lupz27

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:20 PM

maybe im just not following the nfl closely cause im at school but what if geno played like a rookie can someone tell me what other rookie played as bad as him and is expected to start?

 

This does not fall on G Smith thou, this falls on the New York Jets for not having another option in case Geno was not ready, and one of the guys in front of him got hurt.  I don't care thou, because if Smith isn't ready, and doesn't improve while on the job, then he isn't worth dog sh*t IMO, so I think it is best that he get thrown to the wolves, the days of developing starting QB's are over unfortunatley, their just isn't enough decent QB's to keep these new kids holding clip boards for a year, or 2.


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#66 T0mShane

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

He's raw, people. He needs time. Get a grip on yourselves.
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#67 jetsjetsjetss

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:27 PM

This does not fall on G Smith thou, this falls on the New York Jets for not having another option in case Geno was not ready, and one of the guys in front of him got hurt.  I don't care thou, because if Smith isn't ready, and doesn't improve while on the job, then he isn't worth dog sh*t IMO, so I think it is best that he get thrown to the wolves, the days of developing starting QB's are over unfortunatley, their just isn't enough decent QB's to keep these new kids holding clip boards for a year, or 2.

 

i agree to a certain extent

 

If geno is our option throw him out there but i thought sanchez should be starting since hes been playing better (best player plays). If he is really hurt then go go geno and hope lets see if he sinks or swims


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#68 Lizard King

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:50 PM

I think he bounced back in there every time as if it never happened. Call me crazy but I think this kid will be ok.
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#69 bitonti

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

He's raw, people. He needs time. Get a grip on yourselves.

 

he does need time. the question is, will he get time or will he get thrown to the wolves?


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#70 bitonti

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

This does not fall on G Smith thou, this falls on the New York Jets for not having another option in case Geno was not ready, and one of the guys in front of him got hurt.   

 

yeah like david garrard. 


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#71 T0mShane

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

he does need time. the question is, will he get time or will he get thrown to the wolves?


These are the Jets. He'll get thrown.
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#72 RSJ

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

These are the Jets. He'll get thrown.

 

Thats just another reason why I would like to see Matt Simms. He has had a year of NFL under his belt. This is the Jets though. They will cut him and he will win multiple super bowls with the Pats.


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#73 Gastineau Lives

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

Thats just another reason why I would like to see Matt Simms. He has had a year of NFL under his belt. This is the Jets though. They will cut him and he will win multiple super bowls with the Pats.

GTFOH Chris Simms, Matt Sims, Sy Syms. None of them are winning a Super Bowl.


Edited by Gastineau Lives, 26 August 2013 - 07:22 PM.

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#74 JoeKlecko

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:26 PM

I disagree. There a million guys who have a strong arm and throw a nice spiral. They are not all NFL QB's. There is a certain look to an NFL QB, the way they drop back, the way they survey the field, the way they deliver the ball, the way they act, I did not see that from Geno. I could be dead wrong, and hope I am, but that is just what I observed.

 

I'm not ragging on your eye test.  I can understand how Geno might look that way to you.  In the end you may be proven right, but I think it's awfully early to make that assessment of him.  I have a few questions for you and a few points that I hope you'll consider.

 

One, you do realize that around 90-95% of the snaps took in college were in the shotgun, don't you?  Thus he never had to worry about footwork, dropping back and/or surveying the field while he was focusing on his number of steps and their being in the right order.  In addition, that's made more complex because the WCO is such a timing based system.  If you read that article the other day that Tom posted it talked about this very kind of thing and how tricky that can be for a lot of QBs who aren't used to it.  It's one thing to practice focusing on taking the correct number of steps, looking for your receiver and throwing the ball knowing you won't get hit.  It's quite another in the pressure of a real game when you know the opposing defense is looking to take your head off.

 

Two, do you know that the offense Geno played in at WVU is akin to sandlot football?  There were four basic plays and Geno would call the play at the LOS.  A lot of their passes were of the shorter variety.  The WCO is a very complex system and the Jets use a number of different formations and wrinkles, with more routes.  Trying to remember all that at NFL speed, while not feeling natural and comfortable trying to spot your receivers while focusing on the right footwork, are enough to make anyone look bad at first, particularly at NFL speed.

 

Three, NFL defenses are a lot more complex, they disguise coverages more, and the players are bigger, faster, stronger and more skilled.  That in itself is an adjustment for all rookies.  Factor in having to change the basic fundamentals of the position of how he gets the ball on the snap, how and when he has to throw it, and remembering where all the offensive players are supposed to be is enough to make anyone struggle.

 

We know that Geno is VERY accurate and rarely threw interceptions in college.  I think that once he gets comfortable with his fundamentals, really knows the offense, then his confidence will be higher, he'll be more relaxed and able to let his talent take over.  He's still having to think too much.  This kind of struggles and play is the exact kind of thing that can erode his confidence.  It's why a lot of player fail.  They feel uncomfortable when trying to learn/master the new techniques or fundamentals they are taught, and rather than being patient and working harder and harder, many revert back to their old way of playing so they can feel more comfortable, yet that old way of playing won't work in the NFL.

 

Lee and Mornhinweg (and Idzik!) need to be patient with Geno.  Baby steps.  They need to have him focus on the fundamentals only until those are solidly ingrained and come naturally to him.  Then they can work with him on reading Ds, looking off receivers, etc.  Then once he can consistently do that in practice without any hiccups, then they can think about starting him.

 

That's why I've steadfastly maintained that Geno is not ready and shouldn't be forced onto the field too early.  He needs time for these new techniques to become ingrained into his muscle memory so that they feel natural and ARE natural, and he doesn't have to think about them.  Then he's free to focus on reading the D.


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#75 LionelRichie

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:33 PM

 You know who passed the "eye test"?   Browning Nagle.    Dude just looked like he was born to play QB in the NFL....now he's passing the eye test as a realtor.  

 

You know who didn't pass the "eye test"?   Russell Wilson...which is why he was a 3rd rd pick.   How about Tom Brady?   Almost wasn't even drafted at all.   


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