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Cheer up Jets fans- look at Buffalo's QB problems


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#51 Matt39

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 10:49 AM

Maybe I learned from those experiences.  

 

Possibly. But your defense of Gholston when we new year one he was really, really terrible...its hard to forget that.


Edited by Matt39, 27 August 2013 - 10:49 AM.

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#52 JoeKlecko

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

Not for nothing but Geno sucks. And its not just because he had bad performances during training camp or even in the Giants game. Its because it seems he does not even have a grasp on the bare fundementals to play the position. He's awkward at best taking snaps. he does not set before he throws. and seems to throw off his back foot more often than not which tells me he's  playing scared. Sure he's got a great arm when he steps into the throw but the guy does that a low percentage of the time. This guy will not be able to handle the pro game and when you cant even put together a decent practice I'm not sure how in the hell you perform in the real deal.

 

FWIW I now pretty much feel the same way about Sanchez. He didn't seem to have these bad traits when he first came to the team but he certainly has them now and I don't see him getting any better.

 

This team needs to draft another QB in next years draft, and early, because with what we have going on so far from practice reports and the preseason games this offense is going to fail on an epic level. Now that Goodson is gone we have Powell (who might be decent) and the often injured or hurting at best Ivory. We brought in players who could not even beat out Vlad ******* Ducasse. if this does not concern Jets fans and some are still overly optimistic well get ready for a huge awakening.

 

The answer to the Jets QB problem this year is to grow some balls and just let Greg McElroy Start and see if his smarts will over come his lack of arm strength . he seemed to have some zip on the ball in the few time he played in pre season I see no reason why he can't start in a WCO system that' seems to fit him just fine.

 

Guy, c'mon.  You're smarter than this.  You've been watching the NFL for how long?  You know that you can't just write off players during preseason in their rookie years, especially when they're having to switch positions or make HUGE changes in their fundamentals or systems in which they played.  NFL players are not made from a mold or pressed by cookie cutters.  They develop at different rates.  Some go undrafted or are drafted low and surprise by becoming quality backups or even starters.  Some are drafted in the early rounds and light it up from their first time they take the field.  Others take some time, be it a few months, a season, or even 2-3 seasons, but then play at a very high level.  Lots of rookies heads swim by the end of TC.  Right now he's having to think too much.  He's struggling with things and not able to just go out and play.

 

You're right that he's struggling with his fundamentals.  That doesn't mean he sucks.  It just means he needs to work on his fundamentals.  Fundamentals can be learned.  Talent cannot.  We've seen the arm talent that this kid has.  We've seen that he could play at a very high level in college.  Do I need to repost the adjustments and things that Geno has had to make and learn since entering the NFL again?  Give him some time.  Let him focus on fixing those fundamentals so that they do come naturally to him and he doesn't have to think about them any more and can be free to focus on playing the game and letting his talent take over.

 

Vlad has improved and seems to have developed pretty well (finally).  Let's give him a chance.  If he has developed and improved, with some real playing time his confidence should grow and he should get even better.

 

I'm with you on starting McElroy at least until Sanchez is well.  If he sucks worse than Sanchez, great, they can always put Sanchez back in as the starter until Geno is ready.  The key thing imo is that they need to forget about playing Geno for a while and let him fix his fundamentals.  That's why all the "experts" said that he would need to sit for a while and not play immediately.


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#53 JoeKlecko

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:01 PM

Agree.

 

Unless Geno looks like a different player Thursday and can correct his mechanics after watching the Giant film....idk....there was nothing he showed that made it look like he could start at this level. Even Sanchez gave us that belief his first preseason.

 

Matt,

 

Geno is not going to look like a different player on Thursday.  He shouldn't even sniff the field on Thursday.  You've been watching the NFL long enough to know that you're being ridiculous in declaring Smtih a bust already and unable to play at this level.  He's struggling with his fundamentals and for good reason.  That's what's preventing him from playing as he's capable.  Fundamentals can be fixed pretty easily.  It just takes some time and effort.  He has the talent that can't be learned. He has excellent potential to not only develop into a quality starter, but to develop into a topflight NFL QB and be one of the top 10 QBs in the league.  It may take a year or two for that to happen however.

 

Chillax, guy.  Right now, you're sounding too much like Tranny when he thought he knew more than the rest of the NFL or his Scouting Dept.  You're better and much more knowledgeable than that.  Don't let your frustration with Sanchez and the Jets cloud your vision.  The Jets didn't get into this mess overnight, and it's not gonna get fixed overnight, either.


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#54 Smashmouth

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:30 PM

You gave Chad 8 years, and still haven't come to grips with the reality of his play.  You gave Sanchez 4 years before finally acknowledging he sucks.  Now you give Geno 4 months before determining the same?  I know some of us have pushed you for a while now to not take so long with these conclusions, but perhaps we went a little too far.

 

Well BG I saw things in both Sanchez and Pennington that gave me hope and it was fairly early on. Penny came in, in 2002 and revived a stagnant offense and played very well in a WCO system he seemed fit for. After Hackett left, other coordinators tried to force Pennington into something he was not. We all saw the flashes we all thought he might be the guy and then BOOM destroyed by injuries. Meh what ya gonna do.

 

Sanchez looked good his first pre season he had a lot of energy but Rex and his conservative style would not let the kid open up. In the playoffs in his rookie year he gave us the impression he could be that clutch guy since he played fairly well but just seemed to be a bit over matched for his age like most rookies would be in a playoff situation. Then in year 2 he had the 17 TD 13 int year the turnovers went down a lot and he was bringing us back in games giving some hope ( with 6 late game comebacks) he just might not be a big numbers guy but might just be clutch in big situations, Then the year 3 debacle. Good TD numbers Horrific Turnovers that led into the 4th year which was a total disaster.

 

Geno... I can't get past the fact a kid at this level is still struggling with the basic fundamentals of the position and its not just one its numerous issues and that scares me. I did not see those fundamental flaws in Penny or in Sanchez ....Penny had the injury bug that destroyed a possible promising career and Sanchez seems to have issues in his head Because he has the arm and the mobility he just refuses to throw the ball away when nothings available. Another thing I do not like about Geno is his release he's got that lose wrist release that reminds me of Vince Young and like Sanchez he stares down Receivers while his arm is strong his release is slow and free safties will pick up on that and eat him alive .

 

That's just my opinion from what I've seen,,,, but as I have stated the issues he's exhibiting are things he should not be having to deal with at this stage in his career the hardest thing about being a pro QB is learning the mental part of the game so it slows down for you, if you add in other fundamental issues I'm not sure he has what it takes to over come that. because you can't work on multiple issues that have been engrained in you all at once and sometimes it can take years just to remedy one issue just ask Tim Tebow who still can't throw a football properly 


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#55 Matt39

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:46 PM

Well BG I saw things in both Sanchez and Pennington that gave me hope and it was fairly early on. Penny came in, in 2002 and revived a stagnant offense and played very well in a WCO system he seemed fit for. After Hackett left, other coordinators tried to force Pennington into something he was not. We all saw the flashes we all thought he might be the guy and then BOOM destroyed by injuries. Meh what ya gonna do.

Sanchez looked good his first pre season he had a lot of energy but Rex and his conservative style would not let the kid open up. In the playoffs in his rookie year he gave us the impression he could be that clutch guy since he played fairly well but just seemed to be a bit over matched for his age like most rookies would be in a playoff situation. Then in year 2 he had the 17 TD 13 int year the turnovers went down a lot and he was bringing us back in games giving some hope ( with 6 late game comebacks) he just might not be a big numbers guy but might just be clutch in big situations, Then the year 3 debacle. Good TD numbers Horrific Turnovers that led into the 4th year which was a total disaster.

Geno... I can't get past the fact a kid at this level is still struggling with the basic fundamentals of the position and its not just one its numerous issues and that scares me. I did not see those fundamental flaws in Penny or in Sanchez ....Penny had the injury bug that destroyed a possible promising career and Sanchez seems to have issues in his head Because he has the arm and the mobility he just refuses to throw the ball away when nothings available. Another thing I do not like about Geno is his release he's got that lose wrist release that reminds me of Vince Young and like Sanchez he stares down Receivers while his arm is strong his release is slow and free safties will pick up on that and eat him alive .

That's just my opinion from what I've seen,,,, but as I have stated the issues he's exhibiting are things he should not be having to deal with at this stage in his career the hardest thing about being a pro QB is learning the mental part of the game so it slows down for you, if you add in other fundamental issues I'm not sure he has what it takes to over come that. because you can't work on multiple issues that have been engrained in you all at once and sometimes it can take years just to remedy one issue just ask Tim Tebow who still can't throw a football properly


Agree on your Geno take. It was just weird watching him...like something was just...off. The delivery took forever, he looked like he was moving in quicksand, the herky jerky release. Once the ball left his hand it looked nice...just took forever for it to happen.

Idk if it's just mental right now, because his WV tape, it didn't look like that.
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#56 Smashmouth

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:56 PM

Guy, c'mon.  You're smarter than this.  You've been watching the NFL for how long?  You know that you can't just write off players during preseason in their rookie years, especially when they're having to switch positions or make HUGE changes in their fundamentals or systems in which they played.  NFL players are not made from a mold or pressed by cookie cutters.  They develop at different rates.  Some go undrafted or are drafted low and surprise by becoming quality backups or even starters.  Some are drafted in the early rounds and light it up from their first time they take the field.  Others take some time, be it a few months, a season, or even 2-3 seasons, but then play at a very high level.  Lots of rookies heads swim by the end of TC.  Right now he's having to think too much.  He's struggling with things and not able to just go out and play.

 

You're right that he's struggling with his fundamentals.  That doesn't mean he sucks.  It just means he needs to work on his fundamentals.  Fundamentals can be learned.  Talent cannot.  We've seen the arm talent that this kid has.  We've seen that he could play at a very high level in college.  Do I need to repost the adjustments and things that Geno has had to make and learn since entering the NFL again?  Give him some time.  Let him focus on fixing those fundamentals so that they do come naturally to him and he doesn't have to think about them any more and can be free to focus on playing the game and letting his talent take over.

 

Vlad has improved and seems to have developed pretty well (finally).  Let's give him a chance.  If he has developed and improved, with some real playing time his confidence should grow and he should get even better.

 

I'm with you on starting McElroy at least until Sanchez is well.  If he sucks worse than Sanchez, great, they can always put Sanchez back in as the starter until Geno is ready.  The key thing imo is that they need to forget about playing Geno for a while and let him fix his fundamentals.  That's why all the "experts" said that he would need to sit for a while and not play immediately.

 

Klecko arm talent means nothing I can name 20 QB;s that had insanely strong arms and never made it in the NFL . Most QB's at this level have the physical tools the question is can they handle it mentally and I think Geno has way to much to overcome.


Edited by Smashmouth, 27 August 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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#57 JoeKlecko

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

Klecko arm talent means nothing I cant name 20 QB;s that had insanely strong arms and never made it in the NFL . Most QB's at this level have the physical tools the question is can they handle it mentally and I think Geno has way to much to overcome.

 

I wouldn't say that it means nothing.  Yes, there are a lot of players who had strong arms who never made it, but there are a lot more who didn't make it for those same other reasons, as well as having no accuracy, and a noodle arm.  He at least has a chance.  It's way too early to give up on him.  He's seemingly smart, a hard worker (both physically and in the film room), and I think he's got a shot.  If he doesn't develop, fine, we can move on, but it would just be nuts to give up on him at this stage of the game.


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#58 Smashmouth

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

I wouldn't say that it means nothing.  Yes, there are a lot of players who had strong arms who never made it, but there are a lot more who didn't make it for those same other reasons, as well as having no accuracy, and a noodle arm.  He at least has a chance.  It's way too early to give up on him.  He's seemingly smart, a hard worker (both physically and in the film room), and I think he's got a shot.  If he doesn't develop, fine, we can move on, but it would just be nuts to give up on him at this stage of the game.

 

your right it is nuts to just give up ...I'm not really giving up per se I'm just giving my opinion from what I see. Fundamentals that should have been nailed down years and years ago are glaring IMHO and when they are that obvious they are not that easy to fix especially throwing motion. Now on top of throwing motion he has to learn to take a snap drop back and then begin to survey the field that a whole different ball game and Im not sure its going to be easy for Geno when just one of those fundamental issues can take years to iron out not just a few training camps.

 

Tebow has for all we've heard practiced like a man possessed in the 3 off seasons he's been a pro and still can't get even his throwing motion correct so that right there should tell you how hard it is to fix. Not sure many can work as hard or as dedicated as him. Maybe Geno proves me wrong, I certainly hope he does, but its going to take many years IMO to fix multiple issues that I have noticed from some college film, word of mouth from practices and the 2 preseason games I've seen him play in.

 

But giving up ? nah you should know by my previous stance on QB's I would never just give up I just have to see something to change my overall view of the player.


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#59 JoeKlecko

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

your right it is nuts to just give up ...I'm not really giving up per se I'm just giving my opinion from what I see. Fundamentals that should have been nailed down years and years ago are glaring IMHO and when they are that obvious they are not that easy to fix especially throwing motion. Now on top of throwing motion he has to learn to take a snap drop back and then begin to survey the field that a whole different ball game and Im not sure its going to be easy for Geno when just one of those fundamental issues can take years to iron out not just a few training camps.

 

Tebow has for all we've heard practiced like a man possessed in the 3 off seasons he's been a pro and still can't get even his throwing motion correct so that right there should tell you how hard it is to fix. Not sure many can work as hard or as dedicated as him. Maybe Geno proves me wrong, I certainly hope he does, but its going to take many years IMO to fix multiple issues that I have noticed from some college film, word of mouth from practices and the 2 preseason games I've seen him play in.

 

But giving up ? nah you should know by my previous stance on QB's I would never just give up I just have to see something to change my overall view of the player.

 

Yes, throwing motions are very hard to change, and should be changed in Pop Warner, or Middle School, but why are you bringing up throwing motion?  No one has even remotely suggested that Geno needed to fix his throwing motion.  As far as I'm concerned and know, that's a complete non-issue.

 

The fundamentals aren't there because he spent four years in college playing in a totally different system.  90-95% of his snaps were in the shotgun, so there were few snaps from under center and little or no dropping back with 3-step, 5-step and 7-step drops.  That's why I hate all those weird offensive systems that colleges come up with.  They are unfair to the kids that play in them and don't get them ready for the NFL.  I understand that not that many make the NFL, but there are enough who do, that I wish those systems would somehow be outlawed.

 

Even if he had played in a more traditional offense in college (which he didn't), the WCO is still much more complex than other NFL offenses, and he would have had a fairly long period of adjustment to that.  Timing is crucial and the routes are timed to throw on certain steps. He was VERY accurate in college and wasn't throwing off his back foot.  He was stepping into throws.  His struggles with that are a combination of the footwork thing for the WCO and his recent ankle injury, where Lee and Mornhinweg said he went backwards trying to play through the pain.

 

You're right that it's not gonna be easy to make those changes.  It's gonna take patience on the part of Geno, the CS and fans and a lot of focused work and discipline.  They need to forget about playing him for a while and focus on fixing those fundamentals.  That will make the learning process happen quicker and become better ingrained.  If they try to force him to play while he's trying to make those changes, they probably will never become habitual and he'll never reach his full potential.  In times of extreme pressure, he'd probably always revert back to that old muscle memory and habits.


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#60 Smashmouth

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 10:08 PM

Yes, throwing motions are very hard to change, and should be changed in Pop Warner, or Middle School, but why are you bringing up throwing motion?  No one has even remotely suggested that Geno needed to fix his throwing motion.  As far as I'm concerned and know, that's a complete non-issue.

 

The fundamentals aren't there because he spent four years in college playing in a totally different system.  90-95% of his snaps were in the shotgun, so there were few snaps from under center and little or no dropping back with 3-step, 5-step and 7-step drops.  That's why I hate all those weird offensive systems that colleges come up with.  They are unfair to the kids that play in them and don't get them ready for the NFL.  I understand that not that many make the NFL, but there are enough who do, that I wish those systems would somehow be outlawed.

 

Even if he had played in a more traditional offense in college (which he didn't), the WCO is still much more complex than other NFL offenses, and he would have had a fairly long period of adjustment to that.  Timing is crucial and the routes are timed to throw on certain steps. He was VERY accurate in college and wasn't throwing off his back foot.  He was stepping into throws.  His struggles with that are a combination of the footwork thing for the WCO and his recent ankle injury, where Lee and Mornhinweg said he went backwards trying to play through the pain.

 

You're right that it's not gonna be easy to make those changes.  It's gonna take patience on the part of Geno, the CS and fans and a lot of focused work and discipline.  They need to forget about playing him for a while and focus on fixing those fundamentals.  That will make the learning process happen quicker and become better ingrained.  If they try to force him to play while he's trying to make those changes, they probably will never become habitual and he'll never reach his full potential.  In times of extreme pressure, he'd probably always revert back to that old muscle memory and habits.

That's the main Issue Klecko under extreme pressure you do revert back. One thing that really bothers me about the Jets organization the last 5+ years is the over abundance of "project players" we have had more than our fill of that and most of them just don't make it. Brandon Moore was an exception but he was much further back than what's going on the last few years. Its also seems every high draft pick we make has some kind of issue attached as well. Its gets old for a fan like myself (and probably you as well) whose been dealing with the jets crap for so long it just begins to make you angry at times.

 

Think about this ...since Joe Namath who is the last QB we drafted that really burst on the scene and played well out of  the box ? Penny ? That's about it and maybe Obrien who promptly blew out his arm in 86 after having one of the best ten game stretches in the history of the team by far. We really are due for a break at the QB position


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#61 Matt39

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

The Jets as an organization desperately need a star on offense.


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#62 JoeKlecko

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:32 PM

That's the main Issue Klecko under extreme pressure you do revert back. One thing that really bothers me about the Jets organization the last 5+ years is the over abundance of "project players" we have had more than our fill of that and most of them just don't make it. Brandon Moore was an exception but he was much further back than what's going on the last few years. Its also seems every high draft pick we make has some kind of issue attached as well. Its gets old for a fan like myself (and probably you as well) whose been dealing with the jets crap for so long it just begins to make you angry at times.

 

Think about this ...since Joe Namath who is the last QB we drafted that really burst on the scene and played well out of  the box ? Penny ? That's about it and maybe Obrien who promptly blew out his arm in 86 after having one of the best ten game stretches in the history of the team by far. We really are due for a break at the QB position

 

You revert back if you haven't changed your muscle memory.  Once you've learned and ingrained the "correct" way and it has become habitual, you don't revert back.

 

I understand your anger and frustration with the Jets.  You're right that many of our top picks have had issues, and it does get old.  The thing is with Geno, is that he was the consensus top collegiate QB and they got him in the 2nd round.  If he only develops into a backup or not at all, it's not a huge loss.  For a team in desperate need of an upgrade at QB, it's a worthy gamble.  Would I rather he had played in a pro-type offense in college?  Heck yes, but unfortunately there wasn't one of those guys highly rated, and even if there had been, unless the Jets had traded up to get him, they wouldn't have had a shot at him as some other team would have snapped him up.

 

Look at how many absolutely horrible QBs hang on in the NFL because of the scarcity of good QBs.  The Jets have had some bad luck with QBs, but they also have created that bad luck with the horrible owners they've had who have made horrible hires for GM and HC.  They could have taken Marino, but didn't because of the pot issue.  They passed on Brady.  They screwed the pooch on getting Favre young.  Some think they screwed the pooch on getting Peyton Manning (but I've seen contradictory stories on that).  They passed on Brady like all the other teams did.  They didn't have to trade up for Sanchez.  They could have signed a vet like Garcia to start for a couple of years and waited a draft or two to try to get their QB of the future.  The draft Sanchez was in was not the draft to try to find your franchise QB.  How many years have they drafted a QB and what caliber of QB Coaches have they hired?  For a team that's been lacking in excellent QB play, they haven't drafted that many QBs over the years and certainly have not gone out and hired one of the better QB coaches.  They've always been happy with whatever schlub they can find.

 

You didn't respond to my comments about the system that Geno played in at WVU and why his fundamentals aren't better.  What are your thoughts on that?  Did you ever see Geno play at WVU?  I did a number of times, and he looked very, very good.  I truly believe that once he gets his fundamentals down solid (if they will give him the time to do that), your opinion of him will change.  His accuracy will come back.  His reading of Ds will prove to be very good, and the Jets will have a very good QB at last and one who seldom gives the ball away to the other team.  I know it's hard to be patient yet again, when we've been so patient before and been disappointed, but what option do we really have?  At this point unless Simms proves to be a revelation, Geno is our best hope for having a quality QB any time soon.  Even if the Jets wind up picking the in the top 3, there's no guarantee that any of the QBs who are considered to be the cream of the crop of next year's draft class will be any better or that the Jets will be able to get one of them.  There may wind up only being two and the two teams picking ahead of the Jets may grab both of them, or even if they are lucky enough to get one of them, he may take some time to develop. All players have flaws/issues.  There's no such thing as a perfect player.  Guys like Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees become such big stars because they are so rare.


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