Cimini: Talking Geno and Browning

[flgreen]

Green Day: Talking Geno and Browning

October, 2, 2013

OCT 2

6:00

AM ET

By Rich Cimini | ESPNNewYork.com

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The New York Jets are preparing for a trip to Atlanta -- "Monday Night Football" -- and it has me thinking about the first time I covered a game in Atlanta, Sept. 6, 1992. It was the season opener, and the Jets began a new quarterback era that day with the unveiling ofBrowning Nagle. 

They lost the game, 20-17, but the outcome was the sidebar. The headline was Nagle, who put on a show. He passed for 366 yards, two touchdowns and no interceptions, injecting hope into a franchise that wanted to distance itself from Ken O'Brien. I remember Jim Sweeney, their blue-collar center, telling me it was the best loss he'd ever experienced. 

I thought I'd mention this because there are some interesting parallels between the Nagle and Geno Smith. Consider:

• Nagle was a second-round pick, drafted 34th in 1991. He finished his college career at Louisville, but he actually began at West Virginia. Smith played at West Virginia and was drafted this year in the second round, 39th overall.
• O'Brien grew up in California, became a first-round pick and enjoyed some great moments early in Jets career before his star faded and was tossed to the curb by the organization. That pretty much captures the Mark Sanchez story.

Now Sanchez is playing the role of O'Brien, albeit injured, watching from the sideline as the Jets try mold The Best New Hope into a legitimate NFL quarterback. I use Nagle as a cautionary tale because, as the great philosopher Santonio Holmes once said, "Looks can be deceiving." 

Nagle never came close to duplicating his opening-day performance, suffering through a season that may have been the worst quarterback performance in team history. He never started another game for the Jets after '92. Smith is coming off a terrible game that can best be described as Nagle-esque, but -- who knows? -- it could turn out to be just as deceiving as Nagle's inspirational debut. 

Moral of the story: Don't judge a young quarterback by one game. 

By the way, here's a Smith-Nagle comparison after four starts. Obviously, it's not a flattering measure for Smith: 

BROWNING NAGLE VS. GENO SMITH: FIRST FOUR GAMES Quarterback Comp/Att Pct. TD INT Yds. Rating Nagle 69/138 50.0 4 4 878 67.8 Smith 78/136 57.4 4 8 1,090 68.6

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ICYMI: Uh, oh. Holmes' hamstring injury is serious and he will miss multiple games. The Jets also could be without receiver Stephen Hill, who has a concussion. ... Backup receiver Ben Obomanu, who had more penalties than receptions last Sunday, was released Tuesday. They have a roster opening and are expected to fill it with free agent receiver David Nelson.

 

[Green DNA]

Really Rich?  O'Brien was 10x the QB that Sanchez is.  The only similarity is that both are from California.

[flgreen]

This is kind of funny.  When we were doing the player A, and the player B thread yesterday, I was going to put Nagle's first 4 game stats up as player C

[flgreen]

Really Rich?  O'Brien was 10x the QB that Sanchez is.  The only similarity is that both are from California.

Agree

 

O'Brien was a good QB.  Two major flaws----Was drafted before Marino, moved like a robot

[BroadwayJoe12]

Re: Since I can't write an article about actual football details, I'll just go pontificate about something pseudo-football related.

[bitonti]

the problem with Ken Obrien is that he wasn't Dan Marino. It was the missed opportunity that plagued his career with the Jets. Sanchez actually had more playoff success and there was never any sort of Marino type of player they should have drafted. 

 

as for Geno vs Nagle it's an interesting comparison. Start Matt Simms.

[Il Mostro]

Agree

 

O'Brian was a good QB.  Two major flaws----Was drafted before Marino, moved like a robot

 

His OL did him no favors.

[jbone]

the problem with Ken Obrien is that he wasn't Dan Marino. It was the missed opportunity that plagued his career with the Jets. Sanchez actually had more playoff success and there was never any sort of Marino type of player they should have drafted. 

 

as for Geno vs Nagle it's an interesting comparison. Start Matt Simms.

Remember when you took issue with people who wanted to start Geno because he wasnt Sanchez? Now your willing to start Simms for the simple fact he isn't Geno. Ironic isn't it?

[slats]

By the way, here's a Smith-Nagle comparison after four starts. Obviously, it's not a flattering measure for Smith: 

BROWNING NAGLE VS. GENO SMITH: FIRST FOUR GAMES

Quarterback

Comp/Att

Pct.

TD

INT

Yds.

Rating

Nagle

69/138

50.0

4

4

878

67.8

Smith

78/136

57.4

4

8

1,090

68.6

That formatted as stupidly as Cimini's alleged point. The only unfavorable -albeit a large one- is turnovers. Geno's connecting on a larger number of throws, for a lot more yards, with the same number of TDs. That's why his passer rating is better despite double the interceptions.

And comparing Sanchez to O'Brien? Sanchez is more comparable to Nagle than O'Brien.

[bitonti]

Remember when you took issue with people who wanted to start Geno because he wasnt Sanchez? Now your willing to start Simms for the simple fact he isn't Geno. Ironic isn't it?

 

It's not just that simple fact. We have Simms' preseason tape and we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that benching a fella is the same as ending his Jets career. They could bench Geno, give him a couple weeks to regroup and go back to him. Bottom line a football team is 53 guys and if one is floundering they should bench him on principle, doesn't matter if it's a QB, CB, OG or P.  Geno himself admitted he let his teammates down. Apologies are worthless let him feel the cold bench for a while. 

[The Crusher]

It's not just that simple fact. We have Simms' preseason tape and we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that benching a fella is the same as ending his Jets career. They could bench Geno, give him a couple weeks to regroup and go back to him. Bottom line a football team is 53 guys and if one is floundering they should bench him on principle, doesn't matter if it's a QB, CB, OG or P.  Geno himself admitted he let his teammates down. Apologies are worthless let him feel the cold bench for a while. 

 

 

If he craps the bed this game and we lose I think that would be a reasonable option.  He needs a chance to see if he can bounce back. Cold bench?  Expecting a cold front in Atlanta this Monday?

[slats]

It's not just that simple fact. We have Simms' preseason tape and we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that benching a fella is the same as ending his Jets career. They could bench Geno, give him a couple weeks to regroup and go back to him. Bottom line a football team is 53 guys and if one is floundering they should bench him on principle, doesn't matter if it's a QB, CB, OG or P.  Geno himself admitted he let his teammates down. Apologies are worthless let him feel the cold bench for a while.

I think that would be a mistake.

If Geno starts to melt down this week the way he did last week, I'd strongly consider pulling him during the game, though. But only if Simms absolutely sets the world on fire would I consider benching Geno for the following week's start. They should keep him in the starting lineup until they've decided they've seen enough of him for the year. I don't see how pulling him for a couple weeks helps his development at all. I think it just undermines him.

And do you keep him on the bench if Simms is worse? Or do you turn to Quinn next? I understand wanting to sit people for accountability, but if Geno sucks less than the two guys behind him, I think you owe it to the team to keep the least worst QB on the field.

[#27TheDominator]

It's not just that simple fact. We have Simms' preseason tape and we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno. 

 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that benching a fella is the same as ending his Jets career. They could bench Geno, give him a couple weeks to regroup and go back to him. Bottom line a football team is 53 guys and if one is floundering they should bench him on principle, doesn't matter if it's a QB, CB, OG or P.  Geno himself admitted he let his teammates down. Apologies are worthless let him feel the cold bench for a while. 

 

Generally QBs are treated differently.  In all honesty, I think Rex is the only guy that might get away with this because he is already considered "non-traditional"  Sort of the way Buddy platooned Cunningham and Jaworski and neither was looked at as a stiff or washout.

[faba]

If Geno breaks down with too many mistakes there comes  a point where you have to sit him down. You give the opportunity to see if he can improve and learn from his mistakes

[slats]

Generally QBs are treated differently.  In all honesty, I think Rex is the only guy that might get away with this because he is already considered "non-traditional"  Sort of the way Buddy platooned Cunningham and Jaworski and neither was looked at as a stiff or washout.

I think that was the original plan. Sanchez starts, and Geno runs the read-react. Would've been a halfway decent way to get Geno acclimated.

[dbatesman]

We have Simms' preseason tape

In The Greatest Game Ever Quarterbacked, Simms threw for 6.5 YPA, scored zero touchdowns, took seven sacks, and fumbled twice. Against UPS drivers. FLASHES OF GREATNESS U GUYS

we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno.

This is the best evidence yet that we should keep Simms away from sharp objects and heavy machinery, let alone a starting quarterback job. The recent-vintage Jets have proven themselves to be the most QB-clueless outfit in the known universe.

[KSJets]

It's not just that simple fact. We have Simms' preseason tape and we also have the rumors that "some within the organization" thought he was better than Geno. 

 

 

Rumors and preseason tape against guys who are probably out of football now making half-assed looking, cheesy websites, spewing ignorance about the game of football.  Priceless.

[flgreen]

That formatted as stupidly as Cimini's alleged point. The only unfavorable -albeit a large one- is turnovers. Geno's connecting on a larger number of throws, for a lot more yards, with the same number of TDs. That's why his passer rating is better despite double the interceptions.

And comparing Sanchez to O'Brien? Sanchez is more comparable to Nagle than O'Brien.

BROWNING NAGLE VS. GENO SMITH: FIRST FOUR GAMES Quarterback Comp/Att Pct. TD INT Yds. Rating Nagle 69/138 50.0 4 4 878 67.8 Smith 78/136 57.4 4 8 1,090 68.6

 

 

Very odd.

 

It formatted in a straight line on my screen

[SickJetFan]

the problem with Ken Obrien is that he wasn't Dan Marino. It was the missed opportunity that plagued his career with the Jets. Sanchez actually had more playoff success and there was never any sort of Marino type of player they should have drafted. 

 

as for Geno vs Nagle it's an interesting comparison. Start Matt Simms.

I agree start Simm they are slowly losing the team morale with every Geno turnover.  Yes starting Simms is huge gamble with little chance of success but at least it leaves some hope for this season

[SickJetFan]

In The Greatest Game Ever Quarterbacked, Simms threw for 6.5 YPA, scored zero touchdowns, took seven sacks, and fumbled twice. Against UPS drivers. FLASHES OF GREATNESS U GUYS

This is the best evidence yet that we should keep Simms away from sharp objects and heavy machinery, let alone a starting quarterback job. The recent-vintage Jets have proven themselves to be the most QB-clueless outfit in the known universe.

he was also being protected by UPS drivers - just ask Snchez

[#27TheDominator]

I agree start Simm they are slowly losing the team morale with every Geno turnover.  Yes starting Simms is huge gamble with little chance of success but at least it leaves some hope for this season

 

Yes.  You are absolutely right.  There is no hope that a rookie 2nd round pick that never took a snap from under center will show any improvement after his first four games. It is much more likely that a guy that washed out of Louisville and was benched at Tennessee will have a successful season. 

[bitonti]

Yes.  You are absolutely right.  There is no hope that a rookie 2nd round pick that never took a snap from under center will show any improvement after his first four games. It is much more likely that a guy that washed out of Louisville and was benched at Tennessee will have a successful season. 

If we want to look at college career's Geno has a pile of evidence in both the good and bad pile. People rush to bash Matt Simms' college career, but they don't want to talk about Geno's 5 game loser or his pinstripe bowl. 

[T0mShane]

Pinstripe. Bowl.

[kelticwizard]

That formatted as stupidly as Cimini's alleged point. The only unfavorable -albeit a large one- is turnovers.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Please click on attachment for stats.Browning vs Geno.doc

[#27TheDominator]

If we want to look at college career's Geno has a pile of evidence in both the good and bad pile. People rush to bash Matt Simms' college career, but they don't want to talk about Geno's 5 game loser or his pinstripe bowl. 

 

The guy got benched at Tennessee for TWO different players and never even got run at Louisville.  Seems very comparable to Geno.  His 8TD/8INT seems comparable to 98/21 too.  This is some of your best work yet.  I can't wait to see others quoting you.

[bitonti]

The guy got benched at Tennessee for TWO different players and never even got run at Louisville.  Seems very comparable to Geno.  His 8TD/8INT seems comparable to 98/21 too.  This is some of your best work yet.  I can't wait to see others quoting you.

 

All I said was that if we are looking at college stats, Geno has good and bad, just like Matt has good and bad. Why is that crazy?  Follow up question what were Mark Sanchez' college stats? None of it matters. 

[SickJetFan]

Yes.  You are absolutely right.  There is no hope that a rookie 2nd round pick that never took a snap from under center will show any improvement after his first four games. It is much more likely that a guy that washed out of Louisville and was benched at Tennessee will have a successful season. 

do i detect a smidge of sarcasm in ur tone?

[jbone]

All I said was that if we are looking at college stats, Geno has good and bad, just like Matt has good and bad. Why is that crazy?  Follow up question what were Mark Sanchez' college stats? None of it matters. 

Uh, um, Matt had a "good" part of his college career?

[Smashmouth]

In The Greatest Game Ever Quarterbacked, Simms threw for 6.5 YPA, scored zero touchdowns, took seven sacks, and fumbled twice. Against UPS drivers. FLASHES OF GREATNESS U GUYS

This is the best evidence yet that we should keep Simms away from sharp objects and heavy machinery, let alone a starting quarterback job. The recent-vintage Jets have proven themselves to be the most QB-clueless outfit in the known universe.

 

and they can't even weaponize

[#27TheDominator]

All I said was that if we are looking at college stats, Geno has good and bad, just like Matt has good and bad. Why is that crazy?  Follow up question what were Mark Sanchez' college stats? None of it matters. 

 

Good college stats are not a guarantee of NFL success, but bad/mediocre college stats?  Show me Matt Simms good college stats.

 

do i detect a smidge of sarcasm in ur tone?

 

Just an eensy weensy woo woo. 

[ylekram]

In The Greatest Game Ever Quarterbacked, Simms threw for 6.5 YPA, scored zero touchdowns, took seven sacks, and fumbled twice. Against UPS drivers. FLASHES OF GREATNESS U GUYS

This is the best evidence yet that we should keep Simms away from sharp objects and heavy machinery, let alone a starting quarterback job. The recent-vintage Jets have proven themselves to be the most QB-clueless outfit in the known universe.

garbage can post. conveniently leaving out that simms was 33 for 43 with 7 or 8 drops WITH UPS DRIVERS. lets compare apples to apples here. he also never did the behind the back strip sack in the endzone, but lets save that for another argument

[SickJetFan]

garbage can post. conveniently leaving out that simms was 33 for 43 with 7 or 8 drops WITH UPS DRIVERS. lets compare apples to apples here. he also never did the behind the back strip sack in the endzone, but lets save that for another argument

SImms , Simms, Simms, Simms

this is what u will here at next home game

[dbatesman]

All I said was that if we are looking at college stats, Geno has good and bad, just like Matt has good and bad. Why is that crazy?

The feeling I had reading this is the same feeling I had when I saw Les Demoiselles d'Avignon in person for the first time. Just awe and joy and a great swelling pride in the beauty that humans are capable of creating.

 

Follow up question what were Mark Sanchez' college stats? None of it matters.

Yeah, that 16 starts thing had no predictive value whatsoever. It's all a crapshoot, really. If anything, the fact that Simms's college career was a back-alley abortion is a huge advantage, since it means other teams have less tape on him.

[Lizard King]

The feeling I had reading this is the same feeling I had when I saw Les Demoiselles d'Avignon in person for the first time. Just awe and joy and a great swelling pride in the beauty that humans are capable of creating.

 

A rather boilerplate response to the work. 

[jack48]

Pinstripe. Bowl.

 

 

Pinstripe. Bowl.

My goodness, the Pinstripe Bowl!  How did Geno ever win 2 games as a starting NFL QB---out of his first 4 starts?  He lost a Pinstripe Bowl!