Luck Yes, Ge...No for Jet Fans?

[CrazyCarl40]

No he won't. I just don't see it.

Well I guess we'll just have to take your word for it and ignore all facts and rational thought put together by actual football minds.

I'd love to hear who you think is the best QB under 26 right now.

[joewillie78]

I agree with you 100%, but few will. Luck was anointed as the next "guy" so people see that. He is certainly talented and his size extends a lot of plays like Rapelisburger. But I am not that impressed with him as a QB, for the exact reasons you mention. The Colts get behind, often BECAUSE of Luck, then teams go soft, he throws every down to very very underrrated skill players, and they catch up, But he's Luck and already in the hall of fame according to many so thats what they see. Geno on the other hand is the exact opposite. He was branded a bust before camp and no matter what good he does people refuse to see that he could be a franchise guy. 

When the Colts get behind "because of LUCK" (which is ludicrous in itself), at least you dont shut the TV off and head for the fridge, as the dude, has had some incredible comebacks already in his career (in the playoffs), whereas when we get behind with Geno, the other teams "panic" run the ball into the line 3 times and then punt, as that is a great strategy against Geno and this offense.

 

Yes, I have annointed LUCK, and also have annointed Geno, but unfortunately each resides at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

[joewillie78]

Well I guess we'll just have to take your word for it and ignore all facts and rational thought put together by actual football minds.

I'd love to hear who you think is the best QB under 26 right now.

Best under 26 right now:

1. Luck

2. Wilson

3. Kaepenick

4. Bridgewater

5. Manziel

[Matt39]

Well I guess we'll just have to take your word for it and ignore all facts and rational thought put together by actual football minds.

I'd love to hear who you think is the best QB under 26 right now.

 

There's no clear guy out of Wilson, Luck, Cam and Kaepernick

[joewillie78]

There's no clear guy out of Wilson, Luck, Cam and Kaepernick

Yes their is.

[Matt39]

Yes their is.

 

You are entitled to your opinion.

[joewillie78]

You are entitled to your opinion.

Thanks, arent we all?

[Matt39]

Elway 

 

Elway also lucked into Mike Shanahan late in his career. Those Super Bowls don't happen with Reeves or Wade....and even then Elway wasnt the main reason those Bronco teams won back to back.

[joewillie78]

Elway also lucked into Mike Shanahan late in his career. Those Super Bowls don't happen with Reeves or Wade....and even then Elway wasnt the main reason those Bronco teams won back to back.

Funny, it seems that the rhetoric on this board always is of the following:

 

1. Bellichick wouldnt have 3 rings or be anything without BRADY

2. Fox is average except that now he has MANNING

3. Cowher won nothing until ROETHLISBERGER showed up

 

BUT here we find that ELWAY only won because of Shanahan, who "without Elway" has been a complete abomination. Hmmmm........

[Matt39]

Funny, it seems that the rhetoric on this board always is of the following:

 

1. Bellichick wouldnt have 3 rings or be anything without BRADY

2. Fox is average except that now he has MANNING

3. Cowher won nothing until ROETHLISBERGER showed up

 

BUT here we find that ELWAY only won because of Shanahan, who "without Elway" has been a complete abomination. Hmmmm........

 

Shanahan won 13 games with Jake Plummer. Washinton is radioactive and always will be with Snyder there.

[joewillie78]

Shanahan won 13 games with Jake Plummer. Washinton is radioactive and always will be with Snyder there.

And 2 rings with Elway.

[Matt39]

And 2 rings with Elway.

 

And the best running game in football. And that zone blocking scheme that worked out ok. Terrell Davis going for 580 and 8 TD's in the 97 playoffs didnt hurt either.

[joewillie78]

And the best running game in football. And that zone blocking scheme that worked out ok. Terrell Davis going for 580 and 8 TD's in the 97 playoffs didnt hurt either.

Yeah I know. Just if given the choice of having Shanahan in his prime or Elway in his prime, of course I take Elway. Look, I like Shanahan, great offensive mind, and certainly helped Elway (even though they basically hated each other), but I jus could never believe that Shanahan ever gets to the promised land without arguably a TOP 5 QB of all-time.

[Matt39]

Yeah I know. Just if given the choice of having Shanahan in his prime or Elway in his prime, of course I take Elway. Look, I like Shanahan, great offensive mind, and certainly helped Elway (even though they basically hated each other), but I jus could never believe that Shanahan ever gets to the promised land without arguably a TOP 5 QB of all-time.

 

What's going to haunt Luck throughout his career, imo, is Irsay not having the stones to keep Arians as the HC.

[Jetsfan80]

The Jags have excellent skill ayers on the offense, unlike the Jets. 

 

They do?  When Justin Blackmon went down, could you name their # 2 WR?  Or their TE?  And can you seriously argue we've seen the same MJD out there the last 2 seasons?

[Jetsfan80]

No he won't. I just don't see it.

 

Dude engineers the 2nd greatest comeback in NFL history in his 2nd season, and you're writing him off.  Ridiculous.  The kid has put up the numbers AND passes the eye test very early in his career.  He's going to be a star in this league for a long time.

[BroadwayJoe12]

They do?  When Justin Blackmon went down, could you name their # 2 WR?  Or their TE?  And can you seriously argue we've seen the same MJD out there the last 2 seasons?

 

Cecil Shorts and Marcedes Lewis are actually a pretty solid #2 and TE, probably on any team. I agree that MJD hasn't been himself for a while, but they actually have some pretty solid talent as far as skill position players go.

[Jetsfan80]

Cecil Shorts and Marcedes Lewis are actually a pretty solid #2 and TE, probably on any team. I agree that MJD hasn't been himself for a while, but they actually have some pretty solid talent as far as skill position players go.

 

I don't disagree that Shorts is good and Lewis is OK.  But I disagree with the idea that Henne was supported by lots of weapons and therefore is somehow overvalued (when no one is saying he'd be more than a veteran backup to Geno/rookie QB).

[BroadwayJoe12]

I don't disagree that Shorts is good and Lewis is OK.  But I disagree with the idea that Henne was supported by lots of weapons and therefore is somehow overvalued (when no one is saying he'd be more than a veteran backup to Geno/rookie QB).

 

Haha yea I didn't see the prior argument, just that I think Shorts and Lewis are solid, albeit unspectacular options. 

[kelticwizard]

4/10 for 29 yards against the Dolphins. 8/19 for like 120 yards against the Saints. Franchise qb right their, amirite?

 

Geno's setting the world on fire with those numbers.

Typical message board tactic.  Take the worst two numbers out of 16 and try to portray them as representative, preferably with an an air of exasperation at the density of your conversational opponent, lol.

 

Even with those 2 low numbers, Geno averaged about 200 yds a game as rookie with receivers by Manpower and NO fast, shifty back like Leon/Ladainian to pitch out  or pass to.  A rookie needs someone to help him make plays, and Leon didn't have one in the receiving corps.

 

In addition to that, with the secondary in collapse for ¾ of the year, he still leads the team to 8-8.  Give this kid someone who consistently makes the big catch and watch him go.

[j4jets]

They do? When Justin Blackmon went down, could you name their # 2 WR? Or their TE? And can you seriously argue we've seen the same MJD out there the last 2 seasons?

Or when they had Blackmon, Cecil shorts, Mercedes n MJD, they scored 55 points in 4 games. Zomgs they have no one outside of these 4 players!!

Ask any non jet fan to name ANY Jets starting WR outside of Mr. Hamstring n they'd have to look up online. N MJD wasn't himself cuz teams dared Jags to pass by loading the box. Open invitation n Henne did what he does best. Choked. They were bad at least because of Henne. Not the other way around.

[stoicsentry]

When the Colts get behind "because of LUCK" (which is ludicrous in itself), at least you dont shut the TV off and head for the fridge, as the dude, has had some incredible comebacks already in his career (in the playoffs), whereas when we get behind with Geno, the other teams "panic" run the ball into the line 3 times and then punt, as that is a great strategy against Geno and this offense.

 

Yes, I have annointed LUCK, and also have annointed Geno, but unfortunately each resides at the opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

Maybe those teams should try passing more, then: out of our 8 wins, 5 of them came on game-winning drives by Geno.

[artemusclyde]

Typical message board tactic.  Take the worst two numbers out of 16 and try to portray them as representative, preferably with an an air of exasperation at the density of your conversational opponent, lol.

 

Even with those 2 low numbers, Geno averaged about 200 yds a game as rookie with receivers by Manpower and NO fast, shifty back like Leon/Ladainian to pitch out  or pass to.  A rookie needs someone to help him make plays, and Leon didn't have one in the receiving corps.

 

In addition to that, with the secondary in collapse for ¾ of the year, he still leads the team to 8-8.  Give this kid someone who consistently makes the big catch and watch him go.

 

He wasn't benched in the Saints game, so that wasn't one of his "worst" performances. One could even argue that was one of his better performances because he didn't turn the ball over despite throwing for 115 yards with 8/19 completion rate.The kid sucks, this is what we consider a good day for Geno, our expectations are that low. As for the 200 yards comment, everybody throws for 200 yards nowadays. To further stress the point that he sucks, he also put up one of the worst or the worst qb ratings in the league, frequently turned the ball over, and whether or not you like it or not, with a qb who was ranked in the 25-30 range, we'd be in the playoffs. The kid just doesn't have it, he frequently stares down wide receivers, makes bone head Sanchez esque decisions, (forget about the behind the back butt fumble?) and has horrible accuracy. Best case scenario for him is if he ends up like Jason Campbell. 

 

Also, the weapons argument is stupid. Do you really believe that our wide receivers would consistently fail to get open or that Geno is locking on to one read and just doesn't see the open receiver? Which one do you think, in all honestly, is more believable? 

 

And for the weapons argument, he also had a running game that people would stack the box for and a pretty good play caller in Marty who was scheming people open. He's just a bad qb.

[T0mShane]

I think if you're killing Luck to elevate Wilson and Kaepernick, you're simultaneously overrating and underrating how much control a quarterback has over the success of his team, and ignoring how many other things have to go right for a young QB to have success.

[Jetsfan80]

Or when they had Blackmon, Cecil shorts, Mercedes n MJD, they scored 55 points in 4 games. Zomgs they have no one outside of these 4 players!!

 

Why couldn't Blaine Gabbert produce with all those weaponz????

[Jetsfan80]

I think if you're killing Luck to elevate Wilson and Kaepernick, you're simultaneously overrating and underrating how much control a quarterback has over the success of his team, and ignoring how many other things have to go right for a young QB to have success.

 

Yeah, you're pretty much spot on there.  Luck was operating without Reggie Wayne and had Donald Brown as his RB, because Trent Richardson blows.  Kaep has Boldin, Gore, Vernon Davis and now Crabtree.  Wilson has Lynch, Tate, Baldwin, Harvin (sometimes) and a tremendous defense.  Wilson threw for like 106 yards last week and still won.  QB play ultimately steers the ship, but all else being equal, it certainly helps to have a lot of surrounding talent.

 

I like Kaepernick and Wilson (how can you not?).  Kaep is a badass and Wilson has like 4 plays a game where he should get sacked but turns it into a 1st down.  But give me Luck any day. 

[j4jets]

Why couldn't Blaine Gabbert produce with all those weaponz????

Because he's Blaine Gabbert.

[Jetsfan80]

Because he's Blaine Gabbert.

 

Right.  The Jaguars were headed on a track for the worst team in NFL history with Gabbert under center.  Then Henne came in and they won 4 games.  Why, again, shouldn't he get SOME credit for that?  Who else on the free agent market would you prefer as Geno/rookie's veteran backup?

[j4jets]

Right. The Jaguars were headed on a track for the worst team in NFL history with Gabbert under center. Then Henne came in and they won 4 games. Why, again, shouldn't he get SOME credit for that? Who else on the free agent market would you prefer as Geno/rookie's veteran backup?

As a backup, yes. As a starter, no. My original post was "Henne would be an upgrade?" And the answer is no. He is not an upgrade to Geno. He's a backup to Geno. I don't mind him as a backup. He's a decent backup.

[Jetsfan80]

As a backup, yes. As a starter, no. My original post was "Henne would be an upgrade?" And the answer is no. He is not an upgrade to Geno. He's a backup to Geno. I don't mind him as a backup. He's a decent backup.

 

And I've never argued that Henne would be an upgrade.  There's no QB on the free agent market who would be.  Meaning we're almost guaranteed to be rolling Geno out there in Week 1, perhaps with a rookie waiting in the wings.  Hopefully he plays like he did down the stretch.

[joewillie78]

What's going to haunt Luck throughout his career, imo, is Irsay not having the stones to keep Arians as the HC.

Good point. I dont know, Arians I think has done a pretty good job with that whole team. What I like so far is that basically he has given the keys to the Car right away to Luck, recognizing that he has something special, and just basically telling the kid, go get them and sling it all you want. NO handcuffs, or shackles on this kid, which I believe is absolutely the right thing when you have a talent like Luck.

[joewillie78]

Maybe those teams should try passing more, then: out of our 8 wins, 5 of them came on game-winning drives by Geno.

You make a valid point, but you know, sometimes those "comeback wins" stats, not just for Geno but for all QB's are sometimes a bit crazy.

 

For example your team has say a 2 point lead with 5 minutes to go and your QB throws a pick and the other team, marches about 50 yards, kicks a field goal with about 1 minute left so they have a 1 point lead now. they kick off, your return guy returns it 60 yards, and now your "comeback QB" hands off 3 times to get to the middle of the field, to kick a game winning field goal, and your QB gets credited with a "Comeback 4th Quarter win".

 

Comebacks to me are like when Brady just recently was down 24 at halftime and won, or Luck was down about 28 in the playoff game and won.

 

If you have time, please look up the FARTHEST GENO ever "brought us back"? I specifically remember the Tampa Bay, and NE games where a penalty gave Geno a "comeback win" Hmmm.............

[Jetsfan80]

You make a valid point, but you know, sometimes those "comeback wins" stats, not just for Geno but for all QB's are sometimes a bit crazy.

 

For example your team has say a 2 point lead with 5 minutes to go and your QB throws a pick and the other team, marches about 50 yards, kicks a field goal with about 1 minute left so they have a 1 point lead now. they kick off, your return guy returns it 60 yards, and now your "comeback QB" hands off 3 times to get to the middle of the field, to kick a game winning field goal, and your QB gets credited with a "Comeback 4th Quarter win".

 

Comebacks to me are like when Brady just recently was down 24 at halftime and won, or Luck was down about 28 in the playoff game and won.

 

If you have time, please look up the FARTHEST GENO ever "brought us back"? I specifically remember the Tampa Bay, and NE games where a penalty gave Geno a "comeback win" Hmmm.............

 

Our defense was rarely bad enough where a monstrous comeback was necessary.  Even still, he played a big role in several victories where we required him to make plays in the 4th quarter.  As bad as he was overall last season, he had more "we need a big play from the QB to win this game" moments where he came through than Sanchez has in his entire career.

 

He led us on game-winning drives against the Bills, Falcons and Saints.  In each of his first 5 wins, Geno was one of the top 3 players on the field.  He even won an Offensive Player of the Week over Peyton Manning (still don't understand how he got that other than voters deciding they didn't want to keep handing it to Peyton every single week) for that Falcon win in primetime.

[joewillie78]

 

Our defense was rarely bad enough where a monstrous comeback was necessary.  Even still, he played a big role in several victories where we required him to make plays in the 4th quarter.  As bad as he was overall last season, he had more "we need a big play from the QB to win this game" moments where he came through than Sanchez has in his entire career.

 

He led us on game-winning drives against the Bills, Falcons and Saints.  In each of his first 5 wins, Geno was one of the top 3 players on the field.  He even won an Offensive Player of the Week over Peyton Manning (still don't understand how he got that other than voters deciding they didn't want to keep handing it to Peyton every single week) for that Falcon win in primetime.

 I agree with the basic premise, that our defense keeps us close, and we never need a "monstrous comeback". Iam not saying that Geno isnt capable of comeback wins. all NFL QB's are, even Sanchez had his moments, but to constantly have to eke out wins in the 4th quarter against bad to mediocre teams, when with average QB play, and that great defense you referenced, we should on a more consistent basis have a far more comfortable lead and not have to worry about a 4th Q comeback.

We never seem to be able to score on a consistent basis to at least take some pressure off the defense. Most of the time, the defense plays their butts off and our Offense and QB just ruin any good play by the defense.

[Matt39]

I think if you're killing Luck to elevate Wilson and Kaepernick, you're simultaneously overrating and underrating how much control a quarterback has over the success of his team, and ignoring how many other things have to go right for a young QB to have success.

 

I think QB's in general get too much credit for playoff wins and too much sh*t for losses.