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The Saints in salary cap hell

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Truthfully I don't know what he believes.  None of us do.  What we do know is that, in a year where we were cap-poor and need-rich at some 20 roster spots, he went the route of cheap acquisitions and lots of draft picks.  Also, he could have created even more cap room and picked up more players in FA in '13.  But I believe he wanted to see what roster spots he could fill cheaply before spending on those same positions.  Seems sane enough. 

 

This year we are in a very different situation.  Some 30% of our cap space is (or will be) available and the number of holes is greatly reduced.  Still have a number remaining, but nowhere near as many as a year earlier, and I'm not counting Geno as a guarantee of anything other than a roster spot as somewhere between our 1st and 3rd string QB.  Another year later he won't even be guaranteed that if he doesn't improve.

 

My point is only that, regarding Idzik, we've only seen how he acts in 1 team situation in 1 year.  A year, mind you, in which he could make every effort to tank the season personnel-wise and get a mulligan year as GM.  He won't be in that situation again with the Jets, and certainly not this season.

 

I expect to see the Jets spend a bunch of money this year.

  

They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.

Agreed. You saw in the later part of the season and playoffs, teams schemed to take Graham out of the offense, and it worked for the most part. And this was with Colston as another option. We don't have the other options that would make Graham worth that kind of money for another 2 yrs. at the earliest.

 

I'd rather keep building through the draft, pick up some FA that won't break the bank on offense(Maclin, Baldwin,) bring back Cro at $4-5 mil, bring in a young stud OLman who can help keep Geno, or whoever, safe for the next 5 years. Put some money towards the back 7 of the defense, and go draft some offensive talent that will be peaking together with our QB.

 

If it were only that easy!

Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).

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different system.... Brees completes 150 plus passes to his backs every single year its the reason for his insanely high comp percentage.  I wish the Jets would adopt this type of short passing game system that the Saints run . Sproles is a bit past his prime and has caught 90 balls in a season Thomas is an all around good back ,,, I agree our backs can get it done but I would love to see the Jets draft a Dynamic rookie RB who can be a real double threat. Balanced ball control offense and solid defense has always been my preference let the Saints keep their backs we need young guys back there

I agree, drafting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd last year would've been perfect. Instead of wasting a pick on Geno.

I love Ivory but we need a player like Bernard, and Goodsen isn't it.

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I agree, drafting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd last year would've been perfect. Instead of wasting a pick on Geno.

I love Ivory but we need a player like Bernard, and Goodsen isn't it.

 

Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.

Edited by Gastineau Lives

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Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.

 

Even if Geno ends up a complete bust that was a smart pick.  He put up great college numbers, had the prototypical build while having the ability to pull it down and run when needed, and was rated by many scouts as the top QB of the draft. 

 

And having taken Geno in the 2nd round, it means we're currently paying our starting QB peanuts while it seems everyone else in the league is devoting a fourth of their cap toward their QB's, with mixed results.

Edited by Jetsfan80

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Even if Geno ends up a complete bust that was a smart pick.  He put up great college numbers, had the prototypical build while having the ability to pull it down and run when needed, and was rated by many scouts as the top QB of the draft. 

 

And having taken Geno in the 2nd round, it means we're currently paying our starting QB peanuts while it seems everyone else in the league is devoting a fourth of their cap toward their QB's, with mixed results.

 

Exactly. You can call 90 percent of the draft a wasted pick, if you really want to see it that way. Between guys that don't play, don't live up to their hype, don't live up to their draft position, there really isn't much left, is there?

 

Yet these stupid GM's and the stupid NFL continue with this "drafting" charade.

Edited by Gastineau Lives

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Yet these stupid GM's and the stupid NFL continue with this "drafting" charade.

 

Jets fans are the worst.  I remember one of our resident draft "experts" telling everyone the Jets drafts are OK because the whole thing is a crapshoot anyways.  lulwut?

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They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.

Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).

Creating new strengths comes in many shapes and sizes. Quality depth at many positions(SF, Seattle, Bengals) is a huge one. You can win without superstars, if everyone  

is doing their job well enough. Look at NE, lacking superstars all these years, but continuing to win. N.O. good, but not great talent. The QB on these teams is 60% of the reason they win.

Good fundamentals, and every guy knowing his role.

 

Get us good , smart players all over the field, and find us that QB, and we won't need to blow $60 mil on a TE or $40 mil on a #2 WR

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Creating new strengths comes in many shapes and sizes. Quality depth at many positions(SF, Seattle, Bengals) is a huge one. You can win without superstars, if everyone  

is doing their job well enough. Look at NE, lacking superstars all these years, but continuing to win. N.O. good, but not great talent. The QB on these teams is 60% of the reason they win.

Good fundamentals, and every guy knowing his role.

 

Get us good , smart players all over the field, and find us that QB, and we won't need to blow $60 mil on a TE or $40 mil on a #2 WR

The QB on many teams is the reason they win in the regular season but come playoff time when your not mopping up the garbage it takes a well rounded football team to win a SB . The Seahawks are a well rounded football team and they will beat the Manning led Broncos to win the SB.

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Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.

he has the talent but he can't stay on the field a few games a year is not going to cut it.

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You really think so? I think getting Graham is investing in the passing game, not Geno Smith's passing game per se.  If Graham and Geno had some type of history together - or if Graham was a specific type of receiver that fits Geno's specific skill set - then maybe, but that clearly isn't the case.  Graham would be signed to a 5 year deal probably, give or take, and he'd be expected to perform at a high level for at least that window of time.  Long enough to be of considerable use even if we go with Geno for another year and he is no better than he was in '13.

 

Teams that take the proper approach to the offense and the QB position do not let players like Jimmy Graham go. The only way a guy like Graham leaves N.O. and Drew Brees is if he WANTS to leave and if he wants to leave no way in hell he comes to the Jets with our current offensive situation and Geno Smith at QB

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They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.

Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).

 

  As far as Idzik and the Seahawks not making a big splash while he was there,  They signed Matt Flynn to an outrageous contract.  They signed Sydney Rice to a huge deal.

Edited by pedro55

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The QB on many teams is the reason they win in the regular season but come playoff time when your not mopping up the garbage it takes a well rounded football team to win a SB . The Seahawks are a well rounded football team and they will beat the Manning led Broncos to win the SB.

 

 

 

They are a well rounded DEFENSIVE football team.

 

As we've seen all season, their offense struggles to score points, especially on the road. The defense sets up many of their scores. Seattle's offense will not be able to put up as many points as Denver.

Denver will most likely have the crowd behind them. No 12th man in the SB

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The non-exclusive franchise tag, cost another team two number one drafts picks to sign the player, for tight ends was $6.066 million last year.  Teams are allowed one franchise or transition tag, although the transition is almost obsolete.  Teams must designate the tag between February 17-March 3. 

 

The salary goes right on the teams salary cap but they do not need to be under their adjusted cap number, includes carryover about $625,000 in the Saints case, until March 11.

 

The team can lower the tag number if they can agree to a long term deal with the franchised player by June 15 otherwise the player/team is stuck under the franchise one year salary.  The team does have to carry the full amount, about $6 million, on their salary cap and be under the cap March 11 onwards unless they are able to lower it via a long term deal.  This does effect the team's ability to sign free agents since the free agency period also starts March 11. 

 

Only the top 51 salaried players and any dead money count on a team's cap as of March 11 instead of 53 and no practice squad salary counts as well, this saves about $1.8 million during the offseason.

 

There is no way Graham hits free agency the Saints will try and lock him up long term before using the tag, if not they are definitely using it on him, they will find the space.  As far as any other Saints free agents only a kicker/punter would be less to franchise then a tight end so it would limit the Saints resources more even if the tag were open for use on another position if Graham was already locked up. 

 

They will have a problem using the tag on him.  They are going to tag him as a TE, but his agent and the NFLPA are going to say he was a WR.  The WR tag is like another $6M per. The Saints are in such a bad situation this could make it worse.  I'm sure they will do everything to keep Graham, but it makes the OP more relevant because they will be cutting guys of value because they can't afford everyone. 

 

I know we think he is a TE, but apparently by play count he spent more time split wide.

Edited by #27TheDominator

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They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.

 

 

Also untrue.  Don't know where this notion comes from or if this is the new current baseless (not to mention ludicrous) rumor.  

 

Idzik was in Seattle's FO since 2007 and they made plenty of splashes in free agency for other teams' expensive veterans.  Not to mention trading Seattle's draft picks for other teams' veterans as well.  Veterans who needed shiny new contracts.

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As far as Idzik and the Seahawks not making a big splash while he was there, They signed Matt Flynn to an outrageous contract. They signed Sydney Rice to a huge deal.

I stand corrected

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Also untrue. Don't know where this notion comes from or if this is the new current baseless (not to mention ludicrous) rumor.

Idzik was in Seattle's FO since 2007 and they made plenty of splashes in free agency for other teams' expensive veterans. Not to mention trading Seattle's draft picks for other teams' veterans as well. Veterans who needed shiny new contracts.

It was just an incorrect point in my part. I didn't do any research just thought about current contributors and honestly just forgot about rice and Flynn since neither one has contributed a thing in so long. Just sloppy by not thinking of non current starters. Thanks for correction Edited by jgb

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  As far as Idzik and the Seahawks not making a big splash while he was there,  They signed Matt Flynn to an outrageous contract.  They signed Sydney Rice to a huge deal.

 

Yep.  And they signed a lot more than that.

 

It was just an incorrect point in my part. I didn't do any research just thought about current contributors and honestly just forgot about rice and Flynn since neither one has contributed a thing in so long. Just sloppy by not thinking of non current starters. Thanks for correction

 

NP.  GFY with your polite response.  Now I feel badly for being such a snot.  Oh well.  I'll get over it...and probably will do it again soon.

 

FYI, since '07 when Idzik started there (and I may be missing some):

 

Deon Grant 6 years $30M

Patrick Kerney 6 years $40M

Sidney Rice 5 years $41M

TJ Houshmandzadeh 5 years $40M

Zach Miller 5 years $34M

Matt Flynn 3 years $26M

Marshawn Lynch 4 years $31M (after trading for him mid-season)

Leroy Hill 6 years $38M (he was an untagged UFA when they re-signed him)

Brian Russell 5 years $14M

Michael Bennett 1 year $5M 

Chris Baker 2 years $5M (yes, our Chris Baker, after the Pats also threw him away)

Mike Williams 3 years $11M

Julius Jones 4 years $12M

Cliff Avril 2 years $13M

Alan Branch 2 years $8M

TJ Duckett 5 years $14M 

Robert Gallery 3 years $15M

 

 

There is no history of them taking the slow, steady way of building only through the draft and signing only "value" free agents.  Idzik did that in '13 because our situation called for that approach (or seemed to).

 

Here's how the Seahawks found RBs in the Idzik era: keep signing FAs (see above: Jones, Duckett, Edgerrin James), and trading mid-level draft picks, for veterans (sound familiar?).  Do that until one sticks:

 

Traded 5th rounder for 3rd down RB Alvin Pearman

Traded 5th rounder for KR Leon Washington (they hardly used him at RB) then signed him for 4 years $13M

Traded 4th rounder for RB Lendale White (never had 1 carry for Seattle) then signed him for 2 years $8M

Traded 4th and 5th rounders for RB Marshawn Lynch (they certainly got this one right) right before the trade deadline in '10.

 

And in addition, they also took RBs in the 4th round (2012) and 2nd round (2013) in the past 2 drafts.  

 

Power running game and strong defense and an efficient QB who only attempts 400 passes/season.  Jets fans could teach Carroll and the Seattle FO a thing or two about how to get to the SB in today's pass-only game.  

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Teams that take the proper approach to the offense and the QB position do not let players like Jimmy Graham go. The only way a guy like Graham leaves N.O. and Drew Brees is if he WANTS to leave and if he wants to leave no way in hell he comes to the Jets with our current offensive situation and Geno Smith at QB

 

I'm getting tired of this idea. It's not true. The quality of the players around you is one factor, but it's not the only factor.

 

There's plenty of other things that free agents think about:

 

-money,

-tax issues,

-proximity to nightlife,

-proximity to family,

-regional preferences,

-familiarity with coaches

-familiarity with offensive/defensive systems,

-some want to be "the top dog" which is easier to be when there isn't as much around you, other guys may be very good players but they just want to blend in and contribute, etc.

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Teams that take the proper approach to the offense and the QB position do not let players like Jimmy Graham go. The only way a guy like Graham leaves N.O. and Drew Brees is if he WANTS to leave and if he wants to leave no way in hell he comes to the Jets with our current offensive situation and Geno Smith at QB

 

In FA, players most commonly go to the team that offers the most money (or just about the most money), with rare exceptions.  If one team blows away the others with the offer that team will be the winner.  The teams that pony up the most money for receivers are typically those that need them the most.  

 

NO will probably keep Graham.  The best reason is that all they have to do is tag him as a TE (if they can) and it's WAY less than he'd get as a FA.

 

The Jets invested plenty in receivers.  The problem is they invested poorly (Edwards, Holmes, Keller, Kerley, and Hill all cost draft picks for those who say the Jets ignore receivers with their draft picks).  They also paid a bunch of $ to Holmes in particular and Edwards as well.  

 

So it isn't the "what" that the Jets were doing wrong (as compared to others). Hopefully we start to see a change in the "who" which the Jets were most definitely getting wrong (Kerley notwithstanding, and I do like the el-cheapo Nelson pickup).  If Hill improves greatly it'll go a long way, but you can count me with the majority of fans who are pessimistic about his future.  

 

But that goes for QB also, not just receivers.  You can't double-down on garbage passers and think they'll just be good if we'd only surround them with better WRs.  It'll help, of course, but a bad QB is a bad QB.

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I'm getting tired of this idea. It's not true. The quality of the players around you is one factor, but it's not the only factor.

 

There's plenty of other things that free agents think about:

 

-money,

-tax issues,

-proximity to nightlife,

-proximity to family,

-regional preferences,

-familiarity with coaches

-familiarity with offensive/defensive systems,

-some want to be "the top dog" which is easier to be when there isn't as much around you, other guys may be very good players but they just want to blend in and contribute, etc.

I agree stoic but that stuff should all be assumed and no matter how you slice it I think the 2 most important things are the team itself and money. Teams that desparately want a player usually over pay

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I agree stoic but that stuff should all be assumed and no matter how you slice it I think the 2 most important things are the team itself and money. Teams that desparately want a player usually over pay

 

Kind of a circular argument, since the player typically goes to the highest bidder.  

 

At some point, someone is going to be the high bidder and more often than not, that's where the player goes.  Sometimes there's a hometown discount, but not much.  Some is comfort level with the team, some because they don't want to uproot the whole family, and some have other reasons for taking less from their former teams.  But usually the most money gets the player.

 

I don't mind overpaying some when we're desperate, but even that should have limits.  If Decker's number "should" be in the $7M range, I wouldn't cry if we gave him $8-9M (particularly since we're in good cap shape, and even more so if Idzik doesn't make a habit of this and we continue to be in good cap shape going forward).  It's not like we have the position all wrapped up, and a rookie is unlikely to reap instant rewards (which is also part of what you're buying with a free agent). But if he's looking for $11M to $12M or more, then let someone else overpay.

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