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The Saints in salary cap hell


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#51 joewillie78

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:04 PM

I'd quote that, but I'm not sure how much data is allowed in a terabyte.

You friend and mine, slats, keeps saying that we have $50! Million! And! 12! Draft! Picks!, like this is some guarantor of recreating the '94 Niners.

Uh, you may refer to him in those terms: "friend" but in another thread, he called me a "racist" so I doubt the term friend applies in the relationship between him and I.


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#52 jgb

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:04 PM

You really think so? I think getting Graham is investing in the passing game, not Geno Smith's passing game per se.  If Graham and Geno had some type of history together - or if Graham was a specific type of receiver that fits Geno's specific skill set - then maybe, but that clearly isn't the case.  Graham would be signed to a 5 year deal probably, give or take, and he'd be expected to perform at a high level for at least that window of time.  Long enough to be of considerable use even if we go with Geno for another year and he is no better than he was in '13.

 

yeah i do think it. i believe idzik believes--well i believe so isn't that the important thing--that getting 2 or 3 upgraded targets is more worthwhile than blowing half our cap on one guy. but with geno being a staredown artist, maybe best to just have one stud since everyone beyond the first option is a decoy anyway ;)


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#53 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:08 PM

Interesting, but logistically that makes it nearly impossible to sit on $20+ mil in cap space in any given year, right?

 

Nope.  In the example he just gave, they're satisfying the cash payment without sacrificing cap space (in the near term anyway).  

 

Teams can also pay a player the same money in the middle of a contract by restructuring.  Pretend we needed the cap room badly right now and player X was due $10M in salary and roster/workout bonuses.  $10M of "new money" no matter how it's sliced, but in those ways all $10M of that new money is used up on this year's salary cap.  If this player has 4 years left on his contract we could restructure a lot of that into new signing/option bonus that gets amortized over the remaining length of the contract.  So in this example, pretend we still pay the player $2M salary, but now $8M is new signing bonus money.  This year we're still paying him $10M but now his cap hit this year is $2M (salary) plus $2M (amortized signing bonus), or $4M total. I'm paying the same player the same amount of money but now we have $6M more cap room than we had a minute ago.  Do that for multiple players, plus make this a "down year" in your spending floor, and it's easy to finish the year with $20M of cap room.  It wouldn't really make sense to do that unless you wanted to just keep options open (like trying to sign someone who ends up signing elsewhere like Asomugha with us).  So while in the future we'd have $6M less cap space for my one fictitious player, we'd also be pushing all $6M of unused space to next season.  It becomes a wash if the cleared space ends up unused.

 

I think we did this with Cromartie in 2013.  Gave him more guaranteed up front to clear up 2013 space.  Meanwhile we ended up not maxing out on the cap in 2013 so that cleared extra space will be pushed to next season: even though technically Cromartie counts more as a gross amount, he'll count the same as a net amount.  Why did we do it? We didn't know what we were doing with Revis or Sanchez are probably 2 very good reasons.  If Idzik wanted to make TB take Sanchez and eat some of his 2013 salary as part of the Revis trade, that would have been great long-term.  But the flip-side of that coin is that in the short term, the past bonus money already paid to Sanchez wouldn't be amortized anymore.  It all would have accelerated to 2013, so we'd need that extra cap space just to make that offer fit under our cap.  That move didn't happen, so we ended up having cleared more space than we needed to.  In other words, in hindsight we probably didn't need to restructure Cromartie.


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#54 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:10 PM

I'd quote that, but I'm not sure how much data is allowed in a terabyte.

You friend and mine, slats, keeps saying that we have $50! Million! And! 12! Draft! Picks!, like this is some guarantor of recreating the '94 Niners.

 

Our having almost $50M and 12 draft picks is correct.  The latter part is your own addition to it. Therefore, you are finding fault with him for your own comment that you've attributed to him.  No not-alone, lotiony handjob for you.  As usual.   


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#55 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:25 PM

yeah i do think it. i believe idzik believes--well i believe so isn't that the important thing--that getting 2 or 3 upgraded targets is more worthwhile than blowing half our cap on one guy. but with geno being a staredown artist, maybe best to just have one stud since everyone beyond the first option is a decoy anyway ;)

 

Truthfully I don't know what he believes.  None of us do.  What we do know is that, in a year where we were cap-poor and need-rich at some 20 roster spots, he went the route of cheap acquisitions and lots of draft picks.  Also, he could have created even more cap room and picked up more players in FA in '13.  But I believe he wanted to see what roster spots he could fill cheaply before spending on those same positions.  Seems sane enough. 

 

This year we are in a very different situation.  Some 30% of our cap space is (or will be) available and the number of holes is greatly reduced.  Still have a number remaining, but nowhere near as many as a year earlier, and I'm not counting Geno as a guarantee of anything other than a roster spot as somewhere between our 1st and 3rd string QB.  Another year later he won't even be guaranteed that if he doesn't improve.

 

My point is only that, regarding Idzik, we've only seen how he acts in 1 team situation in 1 year.  A year, mind you, in which he could make every effort to tank the season personnel-wise and get a mulligan year as GM.  He won't be in that situation again with the Jets, and certainly not this season.

 

I expect to see the Jets spend a bunch of money this year.  


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#56 JPPT1974

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

Cut Drew Brees? No way! Maybe ask a bunch of players to take pay cuts perhaps!


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#57 jason423

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 11:52 PM

Interesting, but logistically that makes it nearly impossible to sit on $20+ mil in cap space in any given year, right?

 

Not really. Depends on the timing of the payments. For example our team had almost no cap space this year but actually were under the cash spending minimums. That can just as easily flip the other way. 

 

The other thing to consider is there is no penalty for not spending. You simply allocate the money to the players at the end of a 4 year period. So if the Jets wanted to be $10 mil under a year, Woody could go take that $10 million and invest it probably turning the $40 million shortage to $46-$48 million in cash without many problems. In 2017 Woody pays out the $40 million and pockets $6 to 8. Thats pretty good. 


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#58 T0mShane

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 05:07 AM

Whoa. Thanks, Jason, Dennis, and Sperm. Very interesting.
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#59 eboozer

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 06:36 AM

yeah i do think it. i believe idzik believes--well i believe so isn't that the important thing--that getting 2 or 3 upgraded targets is more worthwhile than blowing half our cap on one guy. but with geno being a staredown artist, maybe best to just have one stud since everyone beyond the first option is a decoy anyway ;)

Agreed. You saw in the later part of the season and playoffs, teams schemed to take Graham out of the offense, and it worked for the most part. And this was with Colston as another option. We don't have the other options that would make Graham worth that kind of money for another 2 yrs. at the earliest.

 

I'd rather keep building through the draft, pick up some FA that won't break the bank on offense(Maclin, Baldwin,) bring back Cro at $4-5 mil, bring in a young stud OLman who can help keep Geno, or whoever, safe for the next 5 years. Put some money towards the back 7 of the defense, and go draft some offensive talent that will be peaking together with our QB.

 

If it were only that easy!


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#60 HessStation

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:42 AM

Ebron coming out of NC is the next Graham if not better, soooo all we have to do is draft him at 18....forget this trading for Jimmy Graham talk..

he's maybe the next jermaine gresham.
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#61 Greenseed4

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:48 AM

yup. can't wait


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#62 jgb

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 08:11 AM

Truthfully I don't know what he believes.  None of us do.  What we do know is that, in a year where we were cap-poor and need-rich at some 20 roster spots, he went the route of cheap acquisitions and lots of draft picks.  Also, he could have created even more cap room and picked up more players in FA in '13.  But I believe he wanted to see what roster spots he could fill cheaply before spending on those same positions.  Seems sane enough. 
 
This year we are in a very different situation.  Some 30% of our cap space is (or will be) available and the number of holes is greatly reduced.  Still have a number remaining, but nowhere near as many as a year earlier, and I'm not counting Geno as a guarantee of anything other than a roster spot as somewhere between our 1st and 3rd string QB.  Another year later he won't even be guaranteed that if he doesn't improve.
 
My point is only that, regarding Idzik, we've only seen how he acts in 1 team situation in 1 year.  A year, mind you, in which he could make every effort to tank the season personnel-wise and get a mulligan year as GM.  He won't be in that situation again with the Jets, and certainly not this season.
 
I expect to see the Jets spend a bunch of money this year.

  

They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.



Agreed. You saw in the later part of the season and playoffs, teams schemed to take Graham out of the offense, and it worked for the most part. And this was with Colston as another option. We don't have the other options that would make Graham worth that kind of money for another 2 yrs. at the earliest.
 
I'd rather keep building through the draft, pick up some FA that won't break the bank on offense(Maclin, Baldwin,) bring back Cro at $4-5 mil, bring in a young stud OLman who can help keep Geno, or whoever, safe for the next 5 years. Put some money towards the back 7 of the defense, and go draft some offensive talent that will be peaking together with our QB.
 
If it were only that easy!


Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).
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#63 Gastineau Lives

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:13 AM

he's maybe the next jermaine gresham.

 

How so?


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#64 Obrien2Toon

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:19 AM

different system.... Brees completes 150 plus passes to his backs every single year its the reason for his insanely high comp percentage.  I wish the Jets would adopt this type of short passing game system that the Saints run . Sproles is a bit past his prime and has caught 90 balls in a season Thomas is an all around good back ,,, I agree our backs can get it done but I would love to see the Jets draft a Dynamic rookie RB who can be a real double threat. Balanced ball control offense and solid defense has always been my preference let the Saints keep their backs we need young guys back there

I agree, drafting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd last year would've been perfect. Instead of wasting a pick on Geno.
I love Ivory but we need a player like Bernard, and Goodsen isn't it.
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#65 Gastineau Lives

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:40 AM

I agree, drafting Giovani Bernard in the 2nd last year would've been perfect. Instead of wasting a pick on Geno.
I love Ivory but we need a player like Bernard, and Goodsen isn't it.

 

Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.


Edited by Gastineau Lives, 21 January 2014 - 11:40 AM.

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#66 Jetsfan80

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:46 PM

Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.

 

Even if Geno ends up a complete bust that was a smart pick.  He put up great college numbers, had the prototypical build while having the ability to pull it down and run when needed, and was rated by many scouts as the top QB of the draft. 

 

And having taken Geno in the 2nd round, it means we're currently paying our starting QB peanuts while it seems everyone else in the league is devoting a fourth of their cap toward their QB's, with mixed results.


Edited by Jetsfan80, 21 January 2014 - 12:47 PM.

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#67 Gastineau Lives

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:51 PM

Even if Geno ends up a complete bust that was a smart pick.  He put up great college numbers, had the prototypical build while having the ability to pull it down and run when needed, and was rated by many scouts as the top QB of the draft. 

 

And having taken Geno in the 2nd round, it means we're currently paying our starting QB peanuts while it seems everyone else in the league is devoting a fourth of their cap toward their QB's, with mixed results.

 

Exactly. You can call 90 percent of the draft a wasted pick, if you really want to see it that way. Between guys that don't play, don't live up to their hype, don't live up to their draft position, there really isn't much left, is there?

 

Yet these stupid GM's and the stupid NFL continue with this "drafting" charade.


Edited by Gastineau Lives, 21 January 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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#68 Jetsfan80

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:54 PM

Yet these stupid GM's and the stupid NFL continue with this "drafting" charade.

 

Jets fans are the worst.  I remember one of our resident draft "experts" telling everyone the Jets drafts are OK because the whole thing is a crapshoot anyways.  lulwut?


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#69 eboozer

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

  

They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.




Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).

Creating new strengths comes in many shapes and sizes. Quality depth at many positions(SF, Seattle, Bengals) is a huge one. You can win without superstars, if everyone  

is doing their job well enough. Look at NE, lacking superstars all these years, but continuing to win. N.O. good, but not great talent. The QB on these teams is 60% of the reason they win.

Good fundamentals, and every guy knowing his role.

 

Get us good , smart players all over the field, and find us that QB, and we won't need to blow $60 mil on a TE or $40 mil on a #2 WR


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#70 Smashmouth

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:48 PM

Creating new strengths comes in many shapes and sizes. Quality depth at many positions(SF, Seattle, Bengals) is a huge one. You can win without superstars, if everyone  

is doing their job well enough. Look at NE, lacking superstars all these years, but continuing to win. N.O. good, but not great talent. The QB on these teams is 60% of the reason they win.

Good fundamentals, and every guy knowing his role.

 

Get us good , smart players all over the field, and find us that QB, and we won't need to blow $60 mil on a TE or $40 mil on a #2 WR

The QB on many teams is the reason they win in the regular season but come playoff time when your not mopping up the garbage it takes a well rounded football team to win a SB . The Seahawks are a well rounded football team and they will beat the Manning led Broncos to win the SB.


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#71 Smashmouth

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

Actually, Goodson is. Minus the knee injury.

 

To call Geno a wasted pick at this point in his career screams agenda.

he has the talent but he can't stay on the field a few games a year is not going to cut it.


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#72 Smashmouth

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:56 PM

You really think so? I think getting Graham is investing in the passing game, not Geno Smith's passing game per se.  If Graham and Geno had some type of history together - or if Graham was a specific type of receiver that fits Geno's specific skill set - then maybe, but that clearly isn't the case.  Graham would be signed to a 5 year deal probably, give or take, and he'd be expected to perform at a high level for at least that window of time.  Long enough to be of considerable use even if we go with Geno for another year and he is no better than he was in '13.

 

Teams that take the proper approach to the offense and the QB position do not let players like Jimmy Graham go. The only way a guy like Graham leaves N.O. and Drew Brees is if he WANTS to leave and if he wants to leave no way in hell he comes to the Jets with our current offensive situation and Geno Smith at QB


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#73 pedro55

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 02:34 PM

  

They will spend. Would be surprised to see a marquee name in there but you are right idzik is still a relatively unknown quality. Athough i will point out that seattle didnt make many (any?) big FA splashes when idzik was in that front office, granted not as GM.




Yup this offseason is more about removing glaring weaknesses than creating new strengths (we have only have one, two if you count placekicker).

 

  As far as Idzik and the Seahawks not making a big splash while he was there,  They signed Matt Flynn to an outrageous contract.  They signed Sydney Rice to a huge deal.


Edited by pedro55, 21 January 2014 - 02:34 PM.

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#74 eboozer

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 03:12 PM

The QB on many teams is the reason they win in the regular season but come playoff time when your not mopping up the garbage it takes a well rounded football team to win a SB . The Seahawks are a well rounded football team and they will beat the Manning led Broncos to win the SB.

 

 

 

They are a well rounded DEFENSIVE football team.

 

As we've seen all season, their offense struggles to score points, especially on the road. The defense sets up many of their scores. Seattle's offense will not be able to put up as many points as Denver.

Denver will most likely have the crowd behind them. No 12th man in the SB


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#75 #27TheDominator

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 09:10 PM

The non-exclusive franchise tag, cost another team two number one drafts picks to sign the player, for tight ends was $6.066 million last year.  Teams are allowed one franchise or transition tag, although the transition is almost obsolete.  Teams must designate the tag between February 17-March 3. 

 

The salary goes right on the teams salary cap but they do not need to be under their adjusted cap number, includes carryover about $625,000 in the Saints case, until March 11.

 

The team can lower the tag number if they can agree to a long term deal with the franchised player by June 15 otherwise the player/team is stuck under the franchise one year salary.  The team does have to carry the full amount, about $6 million, on their salary cap and be under the cap March 11 onwards unless they are able to lower it via a long term deal.  This does effect the team's ability to sign free agents since the free agency period also starts March 11. 

 

Only the top 51 salaried players and any dead money count on a team's cap as of March 11 instead of 53 and no practice squad salary counts as well, this saves about $1.8 million during the offseason.

 

There is no way Graham hits free agency the Saints will try and lock him up long term before using the tag, if not they are definitely using it on him, they will find the space.  As far as any other Saints free agents only a kicker/punter would be less to franchise then a tight end so it would limit the Saints resources more even if the tag were open for use on another position if Graham was already locked up. 

 

They will have a problem using the tag on him.  They are going to tag him as a TE, but his agent and the NFLPA are going to say he was a WR.  The WR tag is like another $6M per. The Saints are in such a bad situation this could make it worse.  I'm sure they will do everything to keep Graham, but it makes the OP more relevant because they will be cutting guys of value because they can't afford everyone. 

 

I know we think he is a TE, but apparently by play count he spent more time split wide.


Edited by #27TheDominator, 21 January 2014 - 10:08 PM.

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