Jetsfan80 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I posted this in another thread. However, because I'm awesome, I decided to make it into a thread on its own. Every successful team can pick out a few key signings. Which is why Decker and Giacommini are nothing to spit at. Those are good signings. So was the trade for Chris Ivory. But you don't just say "We have needs/wants at 8 positions. We'll fill those with 6 or 7 free agents and call it a day" like the Browns or Raiders are doing. They're trying to win with other people's players because they failed so miserably at drafting their own talent. Look at the Seahawks starters and you tell me if it looks like the type of roster Idzik is looking to build: [NOTE: For our purposes, I am assuming Sidney Rice is headed elsewhere. If he doesn't, he takes Lockette's spot on the depth chart] QB: Russell Wilson (3rd round pick) RB: Marshawn Lynch (trade: 2011 4th round pick, 2012 conditional pick) WR: Doug Baldwin (UDFA) WR: Percy Harvin (trade: 1st and 7th rounder) WR: Ricardo Lockette (UDFA) TE: Zach Miller (Signed 2011 to 5-year deal) LT: Russell Okung (Top 10 pick) LG: James Carpenter (1st rounder) C: Max Unger (2nd rounder) RG: JR Sweezy (7th rounder) RT: Michael Bowie (7th rounder) LDE: Michael Bennett (UDFA) DT: Brandon Mebane (3rd rounder) DT: Tony McDaniel (UDFA, bounced between Jaguars and Dolphins, signed in 2013) RDE: Cliff Avrill (Signed as RFA in 2011) OLB: Malcolm Smith (7th rounder) MLB: Bobby Wagner (2nd rounder) OLB: Bruce Irvin (1st rounder) CB: Richard Sherman (5th rounder) CB: Byron Maxwell (6th rounder) FS: Earl Thomas (1st rounder) SS: Kam Chancellor (5th rounder) Of all Seattle's starters on offense, only 1, Zach Miller, was a free agent signing. Much like the Jets traded a 4th rounder for Chris Ivory, the Seahawks did the same to get Marshawn Lynch. Harvin was a pickup via trade as well, but his health has prevented him from making any impact on a team that won the Super Bowl largely without him. Of their starters on defense, only one, Cliff Avrill, was a significant free agent signing. McDaniel was a scrap-heap pickup that worked out. The rest they found via the draft. The Seahawks entire back 7 was found via the draft. Their entire offensive line was drafted. That's impressive stuff. You cannot even come close to arguing that this Seattle roster depended on free agents. They depend on the draft. Period. If the Seahawks are the model we're looking to duplicate, Idzik is right on target so far. He's accumulating talent via the draft, filling a few needs where he can via free agency. And he's also, when the timing is right, making trades with those draft picks. I imagine that he might make a deal or 2 with some of our 12 draft picks when the 2014 draft rolls around, too. This is how you build a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Details. You forget the following: Seattle got lucky with their draft picks. A lot. They have a coach that could coach a womens softball team (forget that he once coached here, and sucked) Russell Wilson is gritty, Geno Smith is *****y We had our Sherman, and our idiot GM/owner traded him away. Seattle has like....a bajillion CB's. We have Ras I-Dowling. Seattle spent their FA money over the years (on Zach Miller, who wasn't an all-pro...but that was just unlucky). Seattle has the 12th man. Our fans don't care because ownership is so bad. Eric Decker had Peyton Manning throwing to him, he is teh suck. We let all time greats like Austin Howard and Jerricho Cotchery walk away. 40+ years dude. You haven't even been alive long enough to understand the pain. Srs. Did I forget anything? I'm sure I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetNation Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Jetsfan80 started this thread in the It breaks down how Seattle put together their starting lineup. I felt it was worth sharing, because it clearly illustrates the importance of the NFL draft. Many Jets fans and beat reporters are saying John Idzik is sleeping at the wheel. Looks like Idzik is wide awake and is just following his master plan, which doesn’t involve over spending on free agents. Here is the post: Every successful team can pick out a few key signings. Which is why Decker and Giacommini are nothing to spit at. Those are good signings. So was the trade for Chris Ivory. But you don’t just say “We have needs/wants at 8 positions. We’ll fill those with 6 or 7 free agents and call it a day” like the Browns or Raiders are doing. They’re trying to win with other people’s players because they failed so miserably at drafting their own talent. Look at the Seahawks starters and you tell me if it looks like the type of roster Idzik is looking to build: [NOTE: For our purposes, I am assuming Sidney Rice is headed elsewhere. If he doesn't, he takes Lockette's spot on the depth chart] QB: Russell Wilson (3rd round pick) RB: Marshawn Lynch (trade: 2011 4th round pick, 2012 conditional pick) WR: Doug Baldwin (UDFA) WR: Percy Harvin (trade: 1st and 7th rounder) WR: Ricardo Lockette (UDFA) TE: Zach Miller (Signed 2011 to 5-year deal) LT: Russell Okung (Top 10 pick) LG: James Carpenter (1st rounder) C: Max Unger (2nd rounder) RG: JR Sweezy (7th rounder) RT: Michael Bowie (7th rounder) LDE: Michael Bennett (UDFA) DT: Brandon Mebane (3rd rounder) DT: Tony McDaniel (UDFA, bounced between Jaguars and Dolphins, signed in 2013) RDE: Cliff Avrill (Signed as RFA in 2011) OLB: Malcolm Smith (7th rounder) MLB: Bobby Wagner (2nd rounder) OLB: Bruce Irvin (1st rounder) CB: Richard Sherman (5th rounder) CB: Byron Maxwell (6th rounder) FS: Earl Thomas (1st rounder) SS: Kam Chancellor (5th rounder) Of all Seattle’s starters on offense, only 1, Zach Miller, was a free agent signing. Much like the Jets traded a 4th rounder for Chris Ivory, the Seahawks did the same to get Marshawn Lynch. Harvin was a pickup via trade as well, but his health has prevented him from making any impact on a team that won the Super Bowl largely without him. Of their starters on defense, only one, Cliff Avrill, was a significant free agent signing. McDaniel was a scrap-heap pickup that worked out. The rest they found via the draft. The Seahawks entire back 7 was found via the draft. Their entire offensive line was drafted. That’s impressive stuff. You cannot even come close to arguing that this Seattle roster depended on free agents. They depend on the draft. Period. If the Seahawks are the model we’re looking to duplicate, Idzik is right on target so far. He’s accumulating talent via the draft, filling a few needs where he can via free agency. This is how you build a winner. Follow Me: View the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 whether they sign FA or not, this only works if they have the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 They have a coach that could coach a womens softball team (forget that he once coached here, and sucked) I need a translation on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I posted this in another thread. However, because I'm awesome, I decided to make it into a thread on its own. Every successful team can pick out a few key signings. Which is why Decker and Giacommini are nothing to spit at. Those are good signings. So was the trade for Chris Ivory. But you don't just say "We have needs/wants at 8 positions. We'll fill those with 6 or 7 free agents and call it a day" like the Browns or Raiders are doing. They're trying to win with other people's players because they failed so miserably at drafting their own talent. Look at the Seahawks starters and you tell me if it looks like the type of roster Idzik is looking to build: [NOTE: For our purposes, I am assuming Sidney Rice is headed elsewhere. If he doesn't, he takes Lockette's spot on the depth chart] QB: Russell Wilson (3rd round pick) RB: Marshawn Lynch (trade: 2011 4th round pick, 2012 conditional pick) WR: Doug Baldwin (UDFA) WR: Percy Harvin (trade: 1st and 7th rounder) WR: Ricardo Lockette (UDFA) TE: Zach Miller (Signed 2011 to 5-year deal) LT: Russell Okung (Top 10 pick) LG: James Carpenter (1st rounder) C: Max Unger (2nd rounder) RG: JR Sweezy (7th rounder) RT: Michael Bowie (7th rounder) LDE: Michael Bennett (UDFA) DT: Brandon Mebane (3rd rounder) DT: Tony McDaniel (UDFA, bounced between Jaguars and Dolphins, signed in 2013) RDE: Cliff Avrill (Signed as RFA in 2011) OLB: Malcolm Smith (7th rounder) MLB: Bobby Wagner (2nd rounder) OLB: Bruce Irvin (1st rounder) CB: Richard Sherman (5th rounder) CB: Byron Maxwell (6th rounder) FS: Earl Thomas (1st rounder) SS: Kam Chancellor (5th rounder) Of all Seattle's starters on offense, only 1, Zach Miller, was a free agent signing. Much like the Jets traded a 4th rounder for Chris Ivory, the Seahawks did the same to get Marshawn Lynch. Harvin was a pickup via trade as well, but his health has prevented him from making any impact on a team that won the Super Bowl largely without him. Of their starters on defense, only one, Cliff Avrill, was a significant free agent signing. McDaniel was a scrap-heap pickup that worked out. The rest they found via the draft. The Seahawks entire back 7 was found via the draft. Their entire offensive line was drafted. That's impressive stuff. You cannot even come close to arguing that this Seattle roster depended on free agents. They depend on the draft. Period. If the Seahawks are the model we're looking to duplicate, Idzik is right on target so far. He's accumulating talent via the draft, filling a few needs where he can via free agency. And he's also, when the timing is right, making trades with those draft picks. I imagine that he might make a deal or 2 with some of our 12 draft picks when the 2014 draft rolls around, too. This is how you build a winner. OK, thats it, you are Banned for making too much sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I need a translation on this. If Pete Carroll were to replace Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch with softball players and coach against Rex, he'd win eleventy-billion to 1. He's such a good human being, he'd give one of this extra points to Rex as a charitable donation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 whether they sign FA or not, this only works if they have the QB. Boingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 80 + AVM = unstoppable Between your knowledge of Seattles roster and my knowledge of how to google past Super Bowl champions, all the haters should tremble in fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If Pete Carroll were to replace Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch with softball players and coach against Rex, he'd win eleventy-billion to 1. He's such a good human being, he'd give one of this extra points to Rex as a charitable donation. How did he do his first two seasons? Any guess as to what his record was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Stole this for the front page (and gave Jetsfan80 full credit). Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 How did he do his first two seasons? Any guess as to what his record was? it sucked while GM schneider patiently rebuilt team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If Pete Carroll were to replace Russell Wilson and Marshawn Lynch with softball players and coach against Rex, he'd win eleventy-billion to 1. He's such a good human being, he'd give one of this extra points to Rex as a charitable donation. Pete Carroll can suck a bag of dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 This is how you build a winner. I love how, every season, the way to "build a winner" changes based on who won the Superbowl. Denver plays up to the level that they are capable of in the Superbowl, and we're looking at a very different discussion. But the Broncos had a bad game, therefore, Seattle knows the only way to build a roster. By the way, when was John Idzik the GM of the Seahawks? I couldn't find that in his resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 How did he do his first two seasons? Any guess as to what his record was? Pete Carroll can suck a bag of dicks. Wait...you two don't actually think I'm serious, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 When was John Idzik the GM of the Seahawks? I couldn't find that in his resume. THE SEAHAWKS TRADITION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Wait...you two don't actually think I'm serious, do you? Dude, I can't even tell anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 When was John Idzik the GM of the Seahawks? I couldn't find that in his resume. When did teams win the Super Bowl by signing 3-4+ big FA's in an off-season. I couldn't find that on Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Dude, I can't even tell anymore. My apologies, lol. I was merely regurgitating the sky-is-falling crowds lines. My hope is since the second post has all of them, maybe the rest of the thread won't be cluttered with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 When did teams win the Super Bowl by signing 3-4+ big FA's in an off-season. I couldn't find that on Google. Good question, because only the Super Bowl winners count. Any team that was in the Super Bowl or came near it doesn't count, because they obv. had no chance at winning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 When did teams win the Super Bowl by signing 3-4+ big FA's in an off-season. I couldn't find that on Google. Here's another one for you to Google: Teams that consistently stayed 30 million dollars under the salary cap and consistently won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Pete Carroll can suck a bag of dicks. Oh and because I never turn down the opportunity to agree with this notion: Yes. Yes he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Good question, because only the Super Bowl winners count. Any team that was in the Super Bowl or came near it doesn't count, because they obv. had no chance at winning it. If the numbers were any where CLOSE to even being 50/50 on Super Bowl winners, you'd have a point. 2 out of the past 18 is pretty condemning evidence, sorry to break it to you. And I've already discussed that the list of Super Bowl losers isn't much better for FA-heavy teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 If the numbers were any where CLOSE to even being 50/50 on Super Bowl winners, you'd have a point. 2 out of the past 18 is pretty condemning evidence, sorry to break it to you. And I've already discussed that the list of Super Bowl losers isn't much better for FA-heavy teams. Here's another one for you to Google: Teams that consistently stayed 30 million dollars under the salary cap and consistently won. There you go. Try that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartanJet Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Denver can do it this year if Payton holds up, then this conversation will be different. The point is you either have a QB or you don't. We don't the Broncos and Seahawks do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Voice of Reason Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I feel like there's a significant portion of Jets fans who think Idzik is just being incompetent, an idiot, or just doesn't want to spend money. What I see is a guy minimizing risks and sticking to a value investing approach. I have no problem with that. The last guy here was irresponsible with the checkbook and this is the first time in several years where we have a GM that is emotionally disciplined, which takes a hell of a lot more fortitude than someone who spends money cause they have it to burn. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt that he has a long-term plan mapped out, because I don't think he's an idiot. His dad was a football coach and he played football in college. He majored in math at Dartmouth and got a Masters at Duke. He worked at IBM 6 years and has been working in football since 1982 (including with Tampa when they won a super bowl and was part of a front office that built Seattle). All that doesn't mean he's necessarily a genius and a good GM, but again, I'm willing to grant him the fact that he probably was able to accomplish those things by avoiding being a blithering moron without a concept of a plan. I'm also not saying that he's handled this FA period perfectly or even anything close to that. I think being too rigid and stubborn with a certain number can lose you a quality player or two and no GM is going to have a perfect track record because there is too much variability involved with building a football team. Idzik's valuations could vary well be wrong. But what I'm saying is that I feel pretty good about his general approach to FA because long-term that's a good way to build a football team. The downside is that this approach puts a lot of pressure on having successful drafts, so that's really what is going to define how successful we are going to be in the next few years. The Jets are not an attractive FA destination, this particular FA market wasn't filled with young, talented, and healthy players that you could build a team around long term, and the cap was unexpectedly higher, leading to more competitiors in the market. I think avoiding the big mistake contract in a situation like this is a solid approach to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 There you go. Try that one. It wouldn't be nearly as annoying if you didn't keep bringing up points that people have countered time and time again. That's been answered, and apparently you continually ignore it. Cap carried over. Minimum amount that must be spent. It's March __th, not August. What happened to you!? you used to be such a nice Jets fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 It wouldn't be nearly as annoying if you didn't keep bringing up points that people have countered time and time again. That's been answered, and apparently you continually ignore it. Cap carried over. Minimum amount that must be spent. It's March __th, not August. What happened to you!? you used to be such a nice Jets fan So eventually, you agree, he's going to have to spend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Denver can do it this year if Payton holds up, then this conversation will be different. The point is you either have a QB or you don't. We don't the Broncos and Seahawks do. It would still be 3 out of 19, so I'd be inclined to disagree that the conversation totally changes. What doesn't change is the point about the QB, but we all already knew that. Something the teams that have brought in the big time FA's all had were consensus top 5 (you could probably even argue top 3) QB's. Favre Brees Peyton** If they were to win But the "Is Geno/Sanchez/Clemens/Pennington/etc good enough to win us a Super Bowl" argument is entirely separate from the "why aren't we signing players?!" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 So eventually, you agree, he's going to have to spend? No one on this site disagrees that, over a multiple year stretch, he's going to have to spend. So no, your attempted set up fails. He shouldn't have spent on these guys now if he was going to have to spend it regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I feel like there's a significant portion of Jets fans who think Idzik is just being incompetent, an idiot, or just doesn't want to spend money. What I see is a guy minimizing risks and sticking to a value investing approach. I have no problem with that. The last guy here was irresponsible with the checkbook and this is the first time in several years where we have a GM that is emotionally disciplined, which takes a hell of a lot more fortitude than someone who spends money cause they have it to burn. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt that he has a long-term plan mapped out, because I don't think he's an idiot. His dad was a football coach and he played football in college. He majored in math at Dartmouth and got a Masters at Duke. He worked at IBM 6 years and has been working in football since 1982 (including with Tampa when they won a super bowl and was part of a front office that built Seattle). All that doesn't mean he's necessarily a genius and a good GM, but again, I'm willing to grant him the fact that he probably was able to accomplish those things by avoiding being a blithering moron without a concept of a plan. I'm also not saying that he's handled this FA period perfectly or even anything close to that. I think being too rigid and stubborn with a certain number can lose you a quality player or two and no GM is going to have a perfect track record because there is too much variability involved with building a football team. Idzik's valuations could vary well be wrong. But what I'm saying is that I feel pretty good about his general approach to FA because long-term that's a good way to build a football team. The downside is that this approach puts a lot of pressure on having successful drafts, so that's really what is going to define how successful we are going to be in the next few years. The Jets are not an attractive FA destination, this particular FA market wasn't filled with young, talented, and healthy players that you could build a team around long term, and the cap was unexpectedly higher, leading to more competitiors in the market. I think avoiding the big mistake contract in a situation like this is a solid approach to take. All of this. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gastineau Lives Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 No one on this site disagrees that, over a multiple year stretch, he's going to have to spend. So no, your attempted set up fails. He shouldn't have spent on these guys now if he was going to have to spend it regardless. So, when he is forced to spend, he'll never overspend, right? All of his contracts are going to be dead on the money. He'll never want a player that another team wants and is forced to pony up more than he's comfortable with, is that it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard King Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 We let all time greats like Austin Howard and Jerricho Cotchery walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartanJet Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't think the QB issue is completely separate. Do you think having a sh*tty QB like Ge(oh)no is going to attract offensive talent? Would defensive players want to come to a team with the prospects of a 8-8 season looming because the Jets can't score? I think they are linked to a degree. Sure money is the great equalizer but some players do want to win and get paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 You mean patiently traded for Matt Flynn and patiently signed him for 6mil and patiently traded for Percy Harvin and patiently traded for Marshawn Lynch and patiently banged on a third round 5'11 QB to patiently erase his first patient move and patiently traded for Sidney Rice and patiently signed Cliff Avril and patiently signed Zach Miller who had a very patient looking 11 million dollar cap room last year? most moves made last 2 years.. and trades via FA cap salary,, they waited to spend until they were ready for a SB run look at roster for gods sake and look at signing dates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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