Are you really boycotting the team because of Vick?

[Bugg]

VIck is a despicable human being. But as a football move it smacks of the same dumb Woody Johnson move of trying to make a splash. Vick is a 34-0year odl turnover machine who cannot run like he did 10 yeara ago.Vick's crime is obvioulsy way greater. But for the life of me appears agin Johnson has no goddamn idea what the hell succeeds in the nFL. There is no NFL QB on this rsoter unless Simms may (emphasis on may; a real franchise figures that out instead of that horsesheet last December) be a player.

 

This franchise is trying to sell you on 2 wins in December agaisnt 2 sheety teams as reason for optimism. That I will not buy.A tee shirt in the bargain bin...don;'t know.  

 

And I will still watch and be here. I may go to a road game if it works as part of a long weekend. But barring someone dropping free tickets on me I have no intention of going near the Meadowlands any time soon. I've seen enough awful football to KNOW this team is gonna suck hard.  

 

If does happen you root for bad guys by neccesity when you root for a team, buit that doesn;t mean I have to like it.I still rooted for the Jets when Eric Barton, a complete criminal POS, played here. But I never liked him or what he got away with. It will be the same-conflicted.

[rillo]

Go Jets!!

[pfilippone]

It wouldbe wonderfully ironic is the Jets win the Super Bowl with Mike Vick as starting QB, he'll be on the lead float down the Canyon of Heroes, get the keys to the City but half the fanbase won't be able to enjoy it because they hate Vick.

The Football Gods would definitely have a sense of humor.

I am not bothered by this one bit. After 32 years of waiting for the Jets to win a SuperBowl, I would be OK if the team was comprised of 53 dog eating North Korean communists. As long as they win, I will look the other way.

[RSJ]

I am not bothered by this one bit. After 32 years of waiting for the Jets to win a SuperBowl, I would be OK if the team was comprised of 53 dog eating North Korean communists. As long as they win, I will look the other way.

POTW

[Jolot]

I am not bothered by this one bit. After 32 years of waiting for the Jets to win a SuperBowl, I would be OK if the team was comprised of 53 dog eating North Korean communists. As long as they win, I will look the other way.

Now that's some good stuff right there.

[Jolot]

Didn't George Steinbrenner once famously say most fans would be ok with Adolf Hitler as the starting rightfielder as long as he was hitting .300? I don't agree but he did say it.

[Warfish]

Since Max asked so nicely, and has always been a good friend to me, I'll put myself up for the collective ridicule of JN.

After all, I've already had dozens of posters on JI express their utter disdain for me, claim my 30 years of loyalty was all "an act", and declare me a "non fan". they're glad to be rid of, so what's a few more, right?

So....

 

What I am looking for here is the fans who say they are boycotting the team to chime in. Specifically:

What does that mean?

It means I will not root for or support the team while Vick is on it.

I won't root against them either, nor will I root for injuries to Vick (that classless IMO), nor will I do any other "disloyal" thing.

I will simply shelve my fandom and activities for a year.

 

Will you not go to games in person.

I live in DC and do not have the fiscal wherewithal to go to games, so this is a non-issue.

 

Will you not watch the Jets on TV?

No, I won't.

 

Will you not purchase Jets merchandise?

No, I won't (and I needed a new Jacket, my old spring windbreaker just broke the zipper).

 

Any other thoughts on what the boycott means?

It's a personal expression of one of my most deeply held, and passionate, beliefs.

It's something my beliefs compel me to do. As I see it, ethics > Football.

Put simply, I cannot enjoy rooting for Mike Vick, and while I appreciate idea of "root for the laundry", that's simply not possible for me and my wife with Vick wearing it, and very likely playing in it as the key and most vital player on the team.

I'm not happy about it. But it is what it is.

As I said elsewhere, this is a personal issue for me and my wife, and I neither expect other fans to feel similarly, nor do I judge them for thier choice to continue on.

 

Oh and how long will this boycott last? Forever or until Vick is off the team?

Until Vick is gone would be the plan.

Any other questions I can answer for you Max?

[SMC]

I dont think it's accurate to suggest Vick is the only person that some view as beyond redemption. Some crimes are too heinous that the scum that commit them are never forgiven. See any child molester for an example...

The moral equivalence in this thread is fascinating based on the unique place dogs have in our society.

Based on the discussion, dog-killing is on the same level of heiniousness as:

1) rape

2) child molestation

[Maxman]

Since Max asked so nicely, and has always been a good friend to me, I'll put myself up for the collective ridicule of JN.

After all, I've already had dozens of posters on JI express their utter disdain for me, claim my 30 years of loyalty was all "an act", and declare me a "non fan". they're glad to be rid of, so what's a few more, right?

So....

 

It means I will not root for or support the team while Vick is on it.

I won't root against them either, nor will I root for injuries to Vick (that classless IMO), nor will I do any other "disloyal" thing.

I will simply shelve my fandom and activities for a year.

 

I live in DC and do not have the fiscal wherewithal to go to games, so this is a non-issue.

 

No, I won't.

 

No, I won't (and I needed a new Jacket, my old spring windbreaker just broke the zipper).

 

It's a personal expression of one of my most deeply held, and passionate, beliefs.

It's something my beliefs compel me to do. As I see it, ethics > Football.

Put simply, I cannot enjoy rooting for Mike Vick, and while I appreciate idea of "root for the laundry", that's simply not possible for me and my wife with Vick wearing it, and very likely playing in it as the key and most vital player on the team.

I'm not happy about it. But it is what it is.

As I said elsewhere, this is a personal issue for me and my wife, and I neither expect other fans to feel similarly, nor do I judge them for thier choice to continue on.

 

Until Vick is gone would be the plan.

Any other questions I can answer for you Max?

 

Thanks for sharing all that.  Like I said in another thread, I am not judging anyone.  I believe a lot of fans won't stick to their statements.  I know you for a long time though, so I am pretty confident you will.

 

I hope you are doing well btw!

[Maxman]

This is your opinion, which is no more valid than another's.

I hope he gets hurt very badly, that it never heals, and the pain never subsides.

Some things are unforgivable to me. This is one of them.

 

Well, not true.  There is a lot of over reaction going on, that is going to be proven as fact.  There were posts yesterday saying the Jets were going to have a hard time selling tickets.  They were going to have a PR nightmare that was going to cost millions upon millions.

 

The Eagles went through this, their ticket sales didn't decline.  That was what I was basing my opinion on, and that is why it is more valid.  Besides my opinion is always more valuable than yours because I get to the point quicker.  

[Bugg]

Well, not true.  There is a lot of over reaction going on, that is going to be proven as fact.  There were posts yesterday saying the Jets were going to have a hard time selling tickets.  They were going to have a PR nightmare that was going to cost millions upon millions.

 

The Eagles went through this, their ticket sales didn't decline.  That was what I was basing my opinion on, and that is why it is more valid.  Besides my opinion is always more valuable than yours because I get to the point quicker.  

The Jets were already having a hard time selling tickets because 1, the product sucks balls and 2. is too expensive. But this does not help at all.

[Maxman]

I will root for his head to get separated from his body, whether he's on the field or holding a clipboard.

The paid his debt thing is a matter of opinion. Besides, I think his actual jail time was over racketeering, not his evil cruelty.

Different situation but same principle: if your daughter got raped and permanently scarred, both physically and mentally, and the dirtbag got out after 3 or 5 years & was living large, would you say, "Meh, that's all in the past now. He's paid his debt. And he even spoke out against child rape in a magazine article last year."? Probably not.

Just because one individual judge says that's enough time, or because there was only so much prosecutable evidence, that doesn't mean the punishment was apt or sufficient.

 

Well I think this is a really bad analogy because these are entirely two different things.  But I will answer this seriously.  I have posted this before but here goes again.

 

I have an Uncle who was murdered when I was a kid.  I was like 5 years old and he was my favorite Uncle.  Shot and killed.  Lots of people saw it, nobody talked.  The guy who murdered him was never found.  The case remains unsolved today all these years later.

 

You know what?  I know there is a judge and it isn't here on this earth.  So I spend no time worrying about this murderer getting his due.  Maybe he is dead himself by now, maybe he is alive.  Either way he beat the system here.  But I am not the one who passes judgement and that day is coming for him regardless of what happens on earth.

[Maxman]

The Jets were already having a hard time selling tickets because 1, the product sucks balls and 2. is too expensive. But this does not help at all.

 

Vick would only help them sell tickets if he started and they did well.  But I see him as being the backup QB.  So I agree this will have no impact on ticket sales.  Which is kind of my point because people are saying there will be such a huge negative impact.

[CTM]

The moral equivalence in this thread is fascinating based on the unique place dogs have in our society.

Based on the discussion, dog-killing is on the same level of heiniousness as:

1) rape

2) child molestation

 

I was not attempting to say dog torture is as bad or worse then either of he above, just pointing out that some crimes are beyond forgiveness. I'd imagine almost all can agree that child molestation fits that bill, a subset of those folks would find dog torture to also be beyond redemption (though not as bad obv). That is not moral equivalence, it's making a point that some crimes are indeed unforgivable. Where you draw that line is probably a personal decision, but the line does exist, for almost all of us. That is the point.

[Pac]

The moral equivalence in this thread is fascinating based on the unique place dogs have in our society.

Based on the discussion, dog-killing is on the same level of heiniousness as:

1) rape

2) child molestation

Its unreal

[CTM]

Well I think this is a really bad analogy because these are entirely two different things.

 

 

 

The fact that you agree that crimes against children are unforgivable actually supports the point though.Some acts are beyond redemption, which crimes you personally include in that bucket at less important then the fact that you agree a bucket exists. 

[Maxman]

The fact that you agree that crimes against children are unforgivable actually supports the point though.Some acts are beyond redemption, which crimes you personally include in that bucket at less important then the fact that you agree a bucket exists. 

 

You should read my post again, because I didn't agree that anything was unforgivable.  Like I said in my post, I am not passing judgement on others.

 

I totally get that many will never forgive though and I respect that.  It is a very individual thing.

[Maxman]

And more importantly, let's get this thread back on topic.  There are several other threads to discuss this stuff in.

So far I have only seen Warfish explain why he is boycotting and what that means to him.

 

Any others?

[CTM]

And more importantly, let's get this thread back on topic.  There are several other threads to discuss this stuff in.

So far I have only seen Warfish explain why he is boycotting and what that means to him.

 

Any others?

 

 

I'm not sure i could ever root for Vick, but my core response to this is to a) root for Geno or hope we draft a top QB.

 

if Vick does take the field, I won't be turning my jersey's in, but I'd be lying if a small part of me doesn't hope it blows up in their faces.  My biggest concern is that I think Geno is so bad that it's all but inevitable that Vick ends up starting.

[SayNoToDMC]

I am not bothered by this one bit. After 32 years of waiting for the Jets to win a SuperBowl, I would be OK if the team was comprised of 53 dog eating North Korean communists. As long as they win, I will look the other way.

As long as the dog meat isn't coming from China, I learned the hard way that's off limits

[SMC]

I was not attempting to say dog torture is as bad or worse then either of he above, just pointing out that some crimes are beyond forgiveness. I'd imagine almost all can agree that child molestation fits that bill, a subset of those folks would find dog torture to also be beyond redemption (though not as bad obv). That is not moral equivalence, it's making a point that some crimes are indeed unforgivable. Where you draw that line is probably a personal decision, but the line does exist, for almost all of us. That is the point.

Of course some crimes are beyond forgiveness and a line is drawn.

 

But, yes, it is a moral equivalence if dog killing is included in the "unforgiveable crime" category along with other crimes people consider heinous.

[CTM]

You should read my post again, because I didn't agree that anything was unforgivable.  Like I said in my post, I am not passing judgement on others.

 

I totally get that many will never forgive though and I respect that.  It is a very individual thing.

 

I don't read posts, I skim them and then jump to conclusions

[CTM]

Of course some crimes are beyond forgiveness and a line is drawn.

 

But, yes, it is a moral equivalence if dog killing is included in the "unforgiveable crime" category along with other crimes people consider heinous.

 

I disagree, I never said dog torture is "as bad as" child molestation. In fact, I think your position of "not as bad as" is a better example moral equivalence attempting to lessen the grotesqueness by comparing it to something worse.

[SMC]

I disagree, I never said dog torture is "as bad as" child molestation. In fact, I think your position of "not as bad as" is a better example moral equivalence attempting to lessen the grotesqueness by comparing it to something worse.

Your denial is noted.  We don't need to quibble over semantics.  My overriding point is that dogs' unique place in society colors the discussion.

 

For me, specifically, on the issue of unforgiveable crimes, look to crimes that demonstrate an "evil heart."  They don't even need to be violent.  For instance, what Maddoff did is an unforgiveable crime.  Do I personally put Vick's crime in that category?  No, but I recognize that others do.

[Maxman]

I'm not sure i could ever root for Vick, but my core response to this is to a) root for Geno or hope we draft a top QB.

 

if Vick does take the field, I won't be turning my jersey's in, but I'd be lying if a small part of me doesn't hope it blows up in their faces.  My biggest concern is that I think Geno is so bad that it's all but inevitable that Vick ends up starting.

 

Very fair points!  Like you said in the other thread, hopefully Geno makes this all a non-issue.

[Maxman]

I don't read posts, I skim them and then jump to conclusions

 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pac]

Your denial is noted. We don't need to quibble over semantics. My overriding point is that dogs' unique place in society colors the discussion.

For me, specifically, on the issue of unforgiveable crimes, look to crimes that demonstrate an "evil heart." They don't even need to be violent. For instance, what Maddoff did is an unforgiveable crime. Do I personally put Vick's crime in that category? No, but I recognize that others do.

Perfectly stated.

[ozzieny]

Vick might be the most outwardly heinous person the Jets ever signed, but no, I will not be boycotting. However, it does give me a lot of pause to think about just what type of person the Jets have just brought into the fold. I believe in second chances, but will reserve further judgment until I see him making charitable and community appearances. If he is a good teammate and nothing else, that probably also works for me. If he becomes a nuisance, I'll probably be very disappointed.

He better contribute to North Shore Animal league & ASPCA. Those are the two biggest animal organizations in NY and North Shore is in Long Island which is where the Jets have deep roots.

[ozzieny]

Very fair points!  Like you said in the other thread, hopefully Geno makes this all a non-issue.

Yes Eugene is making this a non-issue because he knows he will be sitting on the bench from here on in.

[Maxman]

Yes Eugene is making this a non-issue because he knows he will be sitting on the bench from here on in.

 

Agreed.  Geno knows that Vick can't stay healthy.  And he knows that Vick will be on the bench.  No doubt.

[Sperm Edwards]

Well I think this is a really bad analogy because these are entirely two different things.  But I will answer this seriously.  I have posted this before but here goes again.

 

I have an Uncle who was murdered when I was a kid.  I was like 5 years old and he was my favorite Uncle.  Shot and killed.  Lots of people saw it, nobody talked.  The guy who murdered him was never found.  The case remains unsolved today all these years later.

 

You know what?  I know there is a judge and it isn't here on this earth.  So I spend no time worrying about this murderer getting his due.  Maybe he is dead himself by now, maybe he is alive.  Either way he beat the system here.  But I am not the one who passes judgement and that day is coming for him regardless of what happens on earth.

 

Fair enough on your last point, which I respect. But you can't expect everyone to feel that way.

 

My analogy was in no way about equating 2 very different crimes, but rather to say that just because "society" has deemed that a particular punishment is adequate, that doesn't mean every individual must therefore also agree that the punishment is adequate.  If that was the case, then no laws would ever get changed.  For example, the law that the judge had to sentence him under (as I understand it) does not make a distinction between killing a dog by shooting it in the head just out of anger (which is bad enough), and killing a dog by torturing it to death, making the pain last & drawing it out for his personal enjoyment & amusement.  Also whether it was 3 dogs or 13 dogs it may very well be that the sentence would have been the same, though clearly the crime is not the same either.  On paper he's getting punished for the first 3 and there is no punishment for the next 10, which are effectively "freebies." Last, it is unrealistic to believe that he was charged or sentenced for all of his crimes; just the ones they had concrete evidence of.  

 

From his arrest, through his trial, up to the point of sentencing, the judge felt it was apparent enough that he was lying about his involvement, as the judge noted in his summation, as well as Vick giving an impression of a lack of remorse (beyond being remorseful about getting caught, presumably).  After prison, while petitioning the league to let him back in, he then suddenly had a public change of heart.  He was so very sorry and even attached his name to some causes, as was likely "recommended" to him by many, from his agent to the commissioner.  Before long, he was able to come back into the league while still in his playing prime, and live a lavish lifestyle due to the popularity of the sport that pays its players so well.  There are other professions where he'd have been banned for life, so in this sense Vick was treated more leniently than someone else would have been for committing the same crime in the same situation.  

 

There is only one circumstance where I would feel less strongly about it, and that is if it was one instance while he was so wasted out of his mind that he barely knew what he was doing, and nothing close to that ever occurred in his life while sober.  Wouldn't make it excusable, but it would change things.  Like vehicular manslaughter where 1 person purposely ran down and killed a pedestrian and someone else accidentally did the same due to being drunk.  The drunk still should serve time because of a decision that ended another's life, but that decision to drive wasted was not specifically made with the intent of killing some random person.  It's why there are different levels of murder charges.

 

Clearly we don't agree on this, which is fine.  

 

 

Well, not true.  There is a lot of over reaction going on, that is going to be proven as fact.  There were posts yesterday saying the Jets were going to have a hard time selling tickets.  They were going to have a PR nightmare that was going to cost millions upon millions.

 

The Eagles went through this, their ticket sales didn't decline.  That was what I was basing my opinion on, and that is why it is more valid.  Besides my opinion is always more valuable than yours because I get to the point quicker.  

 

 

a) see above

b) everyone gets to his point more quickly than I do.  (again, see above hahaha)

[Sperm Edwards]

The moral equivalence in this thread is fascinating based on the unique place dogs have in our society.

Based on the discussion, dog-killing is on the same level of heiniousness as:

1) rape

2) child molestation

 

No one said that.

[Sperm Edwards]

I was not attempting to say dog torture is as bad or worse then either of he above, just pointing out that some crimes are beyond forgiveness. I'd imagine almost all can agree that child molestation fits that bill, a subset of those folks would find dog torture to also be beyond redemption (though not as bad obv). That is not moral equivalence, it's making a point that some crimes are indeed unforgivable. Where you draw that line is probably a personal decision, but the line does exist, for almost all of us. That is the point.

 

Yep.

 

Take a totally different situation like I brought up (which of course causes some others to then claim I think they're the same situation).  

 

Murder is terrible.  Unforgivable for many people.  Murdering 50 people is even worse.  Two things that are both bad.  One is worse than the other.  But just because one feels both are bad enough to be unforgivable doesn't mean that one feels they are equivalent.

[ozzieny]

Agreed.  Geno knows that Vick can't stay healthy.  And he knows that Vick will be on the bench.  No doubt.

The only way Eugene sees the field is if Vick gets injured.  Given his propensity to get injured gives me reason to be worried.  But still, this is a move in the right direction that had to be made.  

Regardless, Vick is a lot more durable than he is given credit for.  He's played in 12 or more games in 11 seasons.  And he was exiled for two years 07-08 seasons so he's not totally worn down.  And though he is soon to be 34, he still is faster, quicker and more elusive than half the qb's in this league...easily.  Newton, Wilson, Kapernick, Pryor, Griffin, are the only ones with better legs compared to Vick. Hopefully, Idzik plans for the future and doesn't rely on just Eugene.  Vick is a short term solution. No doubt.  Idzik needs to draft a qb this coming draft.    

[AFJF]

Knowing I'll only go to a few games this season I was still looking at buying season tix and selling the ones I don't use.  I've wanted season tix since I was a kid, just never lived close enough to justify it.

 

With Vick on board, I'll pass on the season tix and use one of those last minute sites.  I've heard good things about scorebig.com.  I also have a buddy who can get comped tickets once or twice a year through his job, so maybe even a couple games at no cost.  So, I'll basically continue to cheer and be a fan of the players not named Vick, but I'm not going to be so willing to give Woody Johnson any cash.  Some will walk away from their season tix and not go at all, others will stop buying merch, others will support Vick and wonder why in the world a person would care about somebody torturing  a dog.