Jalen Saunders: The Tape

[Villain The Foe]

Just saying looking at Saunders 3 cone/shuttle etc....it's not good. Isnt that basically what happened with Peter Warrick once he got to the league? 

Post a link to his 3 cone/shuttle drill. I pulled up his combine info and he didn't participate in the 3 cone/shuttle there. Nonetheless, I don't get overly worked up over workouts in shorts. I think Teddy Bridgewater was the Best QB in the draft by far yet 1 workout in shorts negated his unrivaled success the last 3 years. Its ridiculous. No matter what Saunders 3 cone drill was I believe that it can be safe to say that we can fine a successful WR in the league that put up similar 3cone numbers to Jalen Saunders. On the field, and statistically Saunders is a football player, not a 3 cone drill runner. 

[Smashmouth]

If hes durable hes got the drive no doubt. I like the way he blocks through the entire play  on a few of those clips. That's extremely Important for a predominantly running team especially if hes in the slot

[BroadwayJets]

I like him, didn't know much about him besides his name before I watched these, I like that he's small but can play on the outside, definitely better from the slot though. He's gonna get thrown around in the NFL though, but I'm not as concerned because there's a lot of fight in him. He's gotta bulk up a bit and keep that speed. Runs good routes and has great hands, I like this pick.

[Green DNA]

I have a tape of myself running in my backyard- sending it to Idzik

In beast mode I'm sure

[Kleckineau]

Funny how many people were crushed when we did not take a 5' 9" 174lb wr in the 1st rd last year but are mad because we took 5'9 170lb wr with the same 40 time....

The 4lb diff was the deal breaker?

But seriously, you do make a good point. 

[Ken Schroy]

To me it was the fact that he's a special teamer that probably cinched for Idzik. It would be nice to have real threat on punt and/or kick returns. Haven't had one in a while. But I do like the kid. He has attitude and hes tough.

[SenorGato]

does ellington return punts ?  maybe that was the push if not

 

Only 3 times in 2013, for a little under 5 and a half yards on average, and none before that. Ellington did it 31 times over three year in college and picked up 15 yards a pop. 

[Obrien2Toon]

I stated this earlier somewhere in another thread. It seems like pretty much every pick that was made by the Jets from the 3rd round on were made for dual roles, either fulfilling their position as well as adding to special teams. Bruce Ellington from his stats is a WR and nothing more. It isn't a good idea to draft a guy in the 4th round that is now fighting for a roster spot and the only way for him to make this roster is to beat out another, most likely veteran WR. The Saunders pick makes a lot of sense given that the GM's job is to not just provide impact starting caliber players, but role players with depth and versatility to their game. Thats the difference between a John Idzik pick and a Mike Tannenbaum pick (A developmental player in Stephen Hill who can't contribute in any other way. So far a total bust).

Now on to the direct comparison. Outside of the fact that Ellington has not produced anywhere else but at the WR position, we can't even say he's provided much production to even warrant a statement such as the one you made above. Ellington has been reduced to just 1 catch or less 5 times this season in a 12 game season, Jalen Saunders has been reduced to 1 catch 7 times....his entire 4 year career. Furthermore, Saunders junior or Senior seasons he's had multiple catches in every game. Bruce Ellington can't say that. In Ellington's 3 year career he's had 15 games of 1 catch or less, and of those 15 games, 7 games he was completely shut out.

In other words, Ellington can become a complete non-factor in many football games on top of the fact that he doesn't contribute to the team via special teams (Sounds just like Stephen Hill), while Jalen Saunders has NEVER been shut out in a college football game and has caught multiple passes in every game for the past 2 years and has also been an impact player on special teams (3 punt return TD's in 2 years and over 1,200 return yards total)

To say that the pick makes little to no sense only leads me to believe that you have a strong liking towards Ellington but really didn't look at what Saunders is bringing to the table in comparison to what Ellington isn't. And Lastly, Idzik has put all of the mid to late round picks in position to make the team because they don't simply have to beat out another guy at their position. If they excel at special teams than that versatility becomes a commodity and it can and will be used. Ellington will have beat a guy out at the WR position and will probably fail at because his M.O. is that he disappears in games almost half the time. You can't do that as a 4th round pick and have no other way to contribute.

like Saunders, but you can't compare WR stats between the SEC and Big 12

[Obrien2Toon]

Funny how many people were crushed when we did not take a 5' 9" 174lb wr in the 1st rd last year but are mad because we took 5'9 170lb wr with the same 40 time....

lol, great point.

[slats]

To me it was the fact that he's a special teamer that probably cinched for Idzik. It would be nice to have real threat on punt and/or kick returns. Haven't had one in a while. But I do like the kid. He has attitude and hes tough.

The rules are phasing out the kick returner, and that's pretty much a plug & play position. But punt returning is a real skill, and very valuable if you have a good one. If Saunders is the real deal returning punts, that alone makes him worth a fourth round pick.

[#27TheDominator]

In beast mode I'm sure

 

Does faba have any other mode?

 

Post a link to his 3 cone/shuttle drill. I pulled up his combine info and he didn't participate in the 3 cone/shuttle there. Nonetheless, I don't get overly worked up over workouts in shorts. I think Teddy Bridgewater was the Best QB in the draft by far yet 1 workout in shorts negated his unrivaled success the last 3 years. Its ridiculous. No matter what Saunders 3 cone drill was I believe that it can be safe to say that we can fine a successful WR in the league that put up similar 3cone numbers to Jalen Saunders. On the field, and statistically Saunders is a football player, not a 3 cone drill runner. 

 

The reason to lean on the numbers is to see why these guys are getting open.  If he is getting open on change of direction, that is what the cone drills measure.  Any borderline draft pick is going to be able to get open playing against a D where 9 guys won't be in an NFL camp.  4.5 is probably very fast for NCAA, but in the NFL it is pedestrian.  Same with the cone times. 

[#27TheDominator]

Just saying looking at Saunders 3 cone/shuttle etc....it's not good. Isnt that basically what happened with Peter Warrick once he got to the league? 

 

Peter Warrick was a bust for where he went, but we'd be happy with his production from Saunders.  It's actually probably pretty similar to Kerley only more durable. 50-80 catches and 500-800 yards for his first 4 seasons, plus a good punt returner.  After that he is off his rookie deal and who care? 

[Matt39]

Peter Warrick was a bust for where he went, but we'd be happy with his production from Saunders.  It's actually probably pretty similar to Kerley only more durable. 50-80 catches and 500-800 yards for his first 4 seasons, plus a good punt returner.  After that he is off his rookie deal and who care? 

 

Agreed. But Warrick was electric at FSU...went top 5 and didn't do anything like that in the league. Guys like Santana Moss are rare. Just think  we reached on Saunders if our #1 priority was for him to be able to field a punt.

[Stonehands]

Who in the league plays at <180 without elite speed and survives?

 

Al Del Greco.

[#27TheDominator]

Agreed. But Warrick was electric at FSU...went top 5 and didn't do anything like that in the league. Guys like Santana Moss are rare. Just think  we reached on Saunders if our #1 priority was for him to be able to field a punt.

 

I tend to use Warrick as proof that the combine matters, but I didn't actually like the way he looked at FSU.  Something about the way he ran.  Not a big fan of Beckham either, though he is obviously going to be a pro.  I just don't LIKe the way they run.  I don't like plenty of successful guys though.

[Matt39]

I tend to use Warrick as proof that the combine matters, but I didn't actually like the way he looked at FSU.  Something about the way he ran.  Not a big fan of Beckham either, though he is obviously going to be a pro.  I just don't LIKe the way they run.  I don't like plenty of successful guys though.

 

If you go back and pull up old Miami games...Santana Moss was absurd...I know what you mean re "how the run" I guess. Desean Jackson too. 

[Stonehands]

Anyone who questions the Saunders pick, watch the OK State film.  He was an animal that day against one of the best teams in the country.  They got him the ball through a vareity of means and he made something happen when he touched it.

[#27TheDominator]

If you go back and pull up old Miami games...Santana Moss was absurd...I know what you mean re "how the run" I guess. Desean Jackson too. 

 

Dickerson is the easy example.  I hated how he ran.  I will debate people about where he belongs on the list (IMO well below the all time greats like Brown, Payton and Simpson and guys like Campbell who got used up too quickly) but he was certainly successful.  I just didn't LIKE the way he looked running.  FWIW, I liked Moss and Jackson. I liked Moss in college.  Didn't watch much Cal when Jackson was there. 

[Matt39]

Dickerson is the easy example. I hated how he ran. I will debate people about where he belongs on the list (IMO well below the all time greats like Brown, Payton and Simpson and guys like Campbell who got used up too quickly) but he was certainly successful. I just didn't LIKE the way he looked running. FWIW, I liked Moss and Jackson. I liked Moss in college. Didn't watch much Cal when Jackson was there.

Dickerson broke the mold though a bit...great back. Blair Thomas was a guy that couldn't run. As we know.

[#27TheDominator]

Dickerson broke the mold though a bit...great back. Blair Thomas was a guy that couldn't run. As we know.

 

I HATED the way Blair Thomas ran in college.  He always seemed like his body weight was going side to side in an exaggerated manner over whichever foot was on the ground.  I wanted McCants or Cortez Kennedy so I guess I can't crow too much.  My Dad wanted Seau and he was pissed.

[Matt39]

I HATED the way Blair Thomas ran in college. He always seemed like his body weight was going side to side in an exaggerated manner over whichever foot was on the ground. I wanted McCants or Cortez Kennedy so I guess I can't crow too much. My Dad wanted Seau and he was pissed.

Ugh. He had no feet...clumsy runner.

[Patriot Killa]

Anyone who questions the Saunders pick, watch the OK State film. He was an animal that day against one of the best teams in the country. They got him the ball through a vareity of means and he made something happen when he touched it.

I agree.. I watched his play against Alabama and made it look easy. little #8 was every where on the field. I love this pick tbh. And to whoever said Jalen ran the 40 and had the same time as Tavon.... haha.. uh.. no. Tavon almost broke Chris Johnson's 40 yard dash record. Saunders ran a 4.4

[billo83]

Agreed. But Warrick was electric at FSU...went top 5 and didn't do anything like that in the league. Guys like Santana Moss are rare. Just think we reached on Saunders if our #1 priority was for him to be able to field a punt.

IMO this was a Leon Washington type of pick and he was a 4th rounder as well. I have no problem with this pick at all

[Stonehands]

I agree.. I watched his play against Alabama and made it look easy. little #8 was every where on the field. I love this pick tbh. And to whoever said Jalen ran the 40 and had the same time as Tavon.... haha.. uh.. no. Tavon almost broke Chris Johnson's 40 yard dash record. Saunders ran a 4.4

 

The thing about that 'bama game is that they came out with the game plan to be physical with him and he was right in their faces and kept bouncing back up from whatever they gave him.  He is a tough son of a gun.  There were also a fair number of plays where they used Saunders as a decoy to free other guys for big gains because Alabama was affraid of him.

[Villain The Foe]

Does faba have any other mode?

 

 

The reason to lean on the numbers is to see why these guys are getting open.  If he is getting open on change of direction, that is what the cone drills measure.  Any borderline draft pick is going to be able to get open playing against a D where 9 guys won't be in an NFL camp.  4.5 is probably very fast for NCAA, but in the NFL it is pedestrian.  Same with the cone times. 

Can you put up his numbers then? I can't seem to find it..

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Can you put up his numbers then? I can't seem to find it..

 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=112049&draftyear=2014&genpos=WR

[#27TheDominator]

Can you put up his numbers then? I can't seem to find it..

 

My comments were more in relation to your text than his actual numbers.  Saunders did not run the shuttles at the combine because of a muscle strain, but he ran them at his pro day and he was not fast.  I guess there is the hope that he was still a little hurt.  Pro day times are usually faster, but his times would have been around 37th out of 39 at the combine.

 

 

With playmaking mighty mite Jalen Saunders also largely electing to stand on his Combine numbers, Wednesday's workout wasn't nearly as scintillating as most in Norman during the Bob Stoops era. Saunders, a 5-09, 172 pound wideout with terrific playing speed, proved shockingly slow during shuttle drills, raising questions about how much Oklahoma's spread attack exaggerated his overall athleticism.

 

Other than positional drills, the only thing that Saunders did Wednesday was run shuttles and 3-cone drill, which he was unable to run at the Combine due to a muscle strain.

 

Saunders, whose game is built on quickness and acceleration, was clocked at 4.42 seconds in the 20-yard shuttle, a surprisingly slow time that would have ranked 37th among the 39 wideouts who ran this event in Indianapolis. Similarly slow times came in the long shuttle (11.56) and 3-cone (7.29), results which also would have ranked among the slowest at the Combine among wide receivers.

Only two receivers who participated in the 3-cone at the Combine recorded slower times than Saunders on Wednesday, in fact. Those two receivers were the 6-foot-5, 240 pound Kelvin Benjamin (Florida State) and the 6-foot-6, 225 pound Brandon Coleman (Rutgers).

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/24480279/pro-days-saunders-stumbles-teammates-healing-at-oklahoma

[Villain The Foe]

My comments were more in relation to your text than his actual numbers.  Saunders did not run the shuttles at the combine because of a muscle strain, but he ran them at his pro day and he was not fast.  I guess there is the hope that he was still a little hurt.  Pro day times are usually faster, but his times would have been around 37th out of 39 at the combine.

 

 

I see it now. His is about a half second slower than what we seen at the combine. That could be a possible concern or it could be bad technique running the drill. His in's & out's, agility and quickness really shows up when you watch his punt returning. He could just test bad. This punt return from the front view shows his agility, quickness and ability to cut on a dime. If this is  the result of a bad 6 cone drill I'll take it, because 9 times out of 10 the current Jets punt returner would have called fair catch on that one lol. 

 

[Il Mostro]

Finally, Eddie "The Flea" Bell's replacement. 

[#27TheDominator]

I see it now. His is about a half second slower than what we seen at the combine. That could be a possible concern or it could be bad technique running the drill. His in's & out's, agility and quickness really shows up when you watch his punt returning. He could just test bad. This punt return from the front view shows his agility, quickness and ability to cut on a dime. If this is  the result of a bad 6 cone drill I'll take it, because 9 times out of 10 the current Jets punt returner would have called fair catch on that one lol. 

 

 

It's certainly a concern.  It's possible that he was still suffering from the injury.  The guy was a track athlete and jitterbugging back and forth is where he was going to make his money.  Bad technique running the drills would probably indicate a failure to follow coaching.  It is a reason to worry a bit, "seeing" lateral agility and the ability to cut is not the same as timing it.  There probably videos of me somewhere making guys look like monkeys on moves like that.  I am not particularly fast.  Oklahoma St is a fine program, but it is likely that at least 9 guys covering that punt return won't be in the NFL.

 

Finally, Eddie "The Flea" Bell's replacement. 

 

That is exactly who my Dad mentioned.  My first "favorite" Jet.  #7.

[Stonehands]

  There probably videos of me somewhere making guys look like monkeys on moves like that.  I am not particularly fast.  Oklahoma St is a fine program, but it is likely that at least 9 guys covering that punt return won't be in the NFL.

 

It's a wonder that Oklahoma State is ever able to stop anyone on a punt return.  I guess every single other returner must not have been as lucky as Saunders.

[#27TheDominator]

It's a wonder that Oklahoma State is ever able to stop anyone on a punt return.  I guess every single other returner must not have been as lucky as Saunders.

 

What does that even mean?  I'm not saying Saunders is a bad pick or won't be a good punt returner.  I actually kind of like him.  I'm saying that the fact that he had a bad short shuttle is something to be a bit concerned about.  There are plenty of guys who are great punt returners in college who suck in the NFL.  Sometimes they aren't fast or quick enough, sometimes they can't deal with the change in speed of the defenders even if they are crazy fast and quick.  Best punt returner in the country in 2009?  Kyle WIlson.

 

[Stonehands]

What does that even mean?  I'm not saying Saunders is a bad pick or won't be a good punt returner.  I actually kind of like him.  I'm saying that the fact that he had a bad short shuttle is something to be a bit concerned about.  There are plenty of guys who are great punt returners in college who suck in the NFL.  Sometimes they aren't fast or quick enough, sometimes they can't deal with the change in speed of the defenders even if they are crazy fast and quick.  Best punt returner in the country in 2009?  Kyle WIlson.

 

I must have mis-read your post because to me it sounded like you were minimizing Saunders' on the field play based on some stop watch numbers.

 

Oh, and if Kyle Wilson had proven to have Jalen Saunders' hands, he probably would be returning punts for the Jets.  His was a ball security issue which didn't show in his limited touches in college.  He wasn't an offensive player, so he did have the same number of touches to evaluate that.

[#27TheDominator]

I must have mis-read your post because to me it sounded like you were minimizing Saunders' on the field play based on some stop watch numbers.

 

Oh, and if Kyle Wilson had proven to have Jalen Saunders' hands, he probably would be returning punts for the Jets.  His was a ball security issue which didn't show in his limited touches in college.  He wasn't an offensive player, so he did have the same number of touches to evaluate that.

 

Just concern, not minimizing.  Warrick is probably a better example of a guy with production and not numbers.  If Saunders is like Warrick we are okay.  A good 4th rounder, not a 4th overall.

[Matt39]

Wilson is way too stiff to be a consistent PR. A lot of his long returns at Boise had perfect blocking.