Vick: Ring with Jets would seal legacy (Even if with Geno under center)

[slats]

I'll skip asking Johnny Manziel and I'll ask Michael Vick, a guy that went 1st overall himself in 2001 by the Atlanta Falcons.

And a disappointing one at that. He wrapped up his six years as a Falcon as a 75.7 rated passer. It doesn't matter how many yards he ran for, if the Falcons had it all to do over, they would not take Mike Vick again with 20/20 hindsight. And no one else is taking an undersized, but super-fast QB #1 again any time soon. Cam went #1 largely because he's a tree. His rushing totals were a little down last year and will continue to drop - because no one wants a QB like Vick who's much more of threat to run than throw. They want Newton to be a less rapey Roethlisberger, not another Vick. Manziel was a first rounder because Russell Wilson won the Super Bowl, not because Mike Vick has won two playoff games in his career.

Vick was ultimately an exciting player who, outside of one season, never developed as a quality QB. And never won a thing. You can't be revolutionary if you don't win big in this league. And that's been my complaint with your take all along - calling the guy revolutionary. He's not. He's an outlier. An anomaly. And a player who no one wants as their starter, as evidenced by him taking a job to back up Geno Smith.

[#27TheDominator]

You mean Tomlinson was a better pick?

[slats]

You mean Tomlinson was a better pick?

Yeah, and Drew Brees might've been a better pick, too.

[Go Jets77]

Vick was/is god awful. Just because he and 8 of his fanboys agree doesn't make it true. He was a really bad QB his entire career, except ONE, count it ONE season. 

 

Awful accuracy

 

Terrible pocket awareness

 

Could never diagnose a defense

 

Could never go through his progressions. If he did he wouldn't take off after the first read wasn't there

 

Injury prone

 

I could go on. But what I posted above are not opinions. There facts. Thats not a good QB and hardly one that revolutionized the position. Their were scrambling QB's before, during and after his career. The guy is a horrible QB and worse person. 

[pdxgreen]

I have been trying to figure out if Vick has been a great/good/awful QB since Chip Kelly, Oregon's coach, took over the Eagles.

I have discovered that it is impossible to answer this question logically.  Like trying to get an old woman to remain

still as a drone flies over her.  Would someone please help me?

[Villain The Foe]

And a disappointing one at that. He wrapped up his six years as a Falcon as a 75.7 rated passer. It doesn't matter how many yards he ran for, if the Falcons had it all to do over, they would not take Mike Vick again with 20/20 hindsight. And no one else is taking an undersized, but super-fast QB #1 again any time soon. Cam went #1 largely because he's a tree. His rushing totals were a little down last year and will continue to drop - because no one wants a QB like Vick who's much more of threat to run than throw. They want Newton to be a less rapey Roethlisberger, not another Vick. Manziel was a first rounder because Russell Wilson won the Super Bowl, not because Mike Vick has won two playoff games in his career.

Vick was ultimately an exciting player who, outside of one season, never developed as a quality QB. And never won a thing. You can't be revolutionary if you don't win big in this league. And that's been my complaint with your take all along - calling the guy revolutionary. He's not. He's an outlier. An anomaly. And a player who no one wants as their starter, as evidenced by him taking a job to back up Geno Smith.

Slats, I seriously doubt Atlanta would call their #1 pick in 2001 disappointing. I'll give you a comparison. Michael Vick, a guy for who the most part had only Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler as offensive weapons, in 5 years with ATL (1 year he was out with a broken leg and played the last 4 games of the season) made the pro bowl 3 times. Matt Ryan who for the most part has had Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez and Michael Turner as offensive weapons, in 6 years with ATL has made the pro bowl 2 times. 

 

You're right, Mike Vick's passer rating wasn't anything to rave about, but neither were his targets outside of Alge Crumpler who under Vick became one of the top TE's in the league. Crumpler had multiple 700, 800 yard seasons with 6 or more TD's. Once Vick was gone he never had seen a 6 TD season and never seen a 500 yard season while playing for Tennessee and the Patriots. 

 

Continuing on, lets get into "hindsight".  Vick in his 5 years had a 2-3 playoff record. memorable playoff stat: Vick is the first QB in NFL history to defeat the packers at Lambeau Field in the playoffs. Matt Ryan in 6 years has a 1-4 playoff record. memorable playoff stat: For a QB with 5 or more playoff appearances Matt Ryan has the lowest playoff winning percentage in history (.200), and that would have been .000 if the Falcons didnt hold off the seahawks during their epic comeback in the I believe 2012 playoffs. 

 

To sit here and say that in hindsight the falcons has to be disappointed with Vick is utterly ridiculous when that same hindsight can show that he's done much more with far less around him on the offensive side of the ball and his running and "throwing to poor targets" put them in position to be 4 quarters away from the Superbowl. Matt Ryan has all the talent you would ever want in a QB with all the talent you'd ever want to put around such a talented QB, yet Michael Vick is still the best QB the falcons have had this millennium based on the fact that Vick did more for the Falcons with less talent around him and with being a lesser talent as a pure passer in comparison to Matt Ryan. But Vicks improvisation when running the ball was absolutely uncanny. So much so that he all but made that all time QB rushing title his own in just those 5 years in Atlanta. 

 

Michael Vick is no disappointment in anyone's "hindsight" that is important to the Atlanta Falcons organization. His dogfighting is a different story. Vick made that place relevant again after their 1998 SB run, because before and after that 98 season the Falcons was for the most part of no relevance until Mike Vick arrived.

[slats]

Slats, I seriously doubt Atlanta would call their #1 pick in 2001 disappointing. I'll give you a comparison. Michael Vick, a guy for who the most part had only Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler as offensive weapons, in 5 years with ATL (1 year he was out with a broken leg and played the last 4 games of the season) made the pro bowl 3 times. Matt Ryan who for the most part has had Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez and Michael Turner as offensive weapons, in 6 years with ATL has made the pro bowl 2 times. 

 

You're right, Mike Vick's passer rating wasn't anything to rave about, but neither were his targets outside of Alge Crumpler who under Vick became one of the top TE's in the league. Crumpler had multiple 700, 800 yard seasons with 6 or more TD's. Once Vick was gone he never had seen a 6 TD season and never seen a 500 yard season while playing for Tennessee and the Patriots. 

 

Continuing on, lets get into "hindsight".  Vick in his 5 years had a 2-3 playoff record. memorable playoff stat: Vick is the first QB in NFL history to defeat the packers at Lambeau Field in the playoffs. Matt Ryan in 6 years has a 1-4 playoff record. memorable playoff stat: For a QB with 5 or more playoff appearances Matt Ryan has the lowest playoff winning percentage in history (.200), and that would have been .000 if the Falcons didnt hold off the seahawks during their epic comeback in the I believe 2012 playoffs. 

 

To sit here and say that in hindsight the falcons has to be disappointed with Vick is utterly ridiculous when that same hindsight can show that he's done much more with far less around him on the offensive side of the ball and his running and "throwing to poor targets" put them in position to be 4 quarters away from the Superbowl. Matt Ryan has all the talent you would ever want in a QB with all the talent you'd ever want to put around such a talented QB, yet Michael Vick is still the best QB the falcons have had this millennium based on the fact that Vick did more for the Falcons with less talent around him and with being a lesser talent as a pure passer in comparison to Matt Ryan. But Vicks improvisation when running the ball was absolutely uncanny. So much so that he all but made that all time QB rushing title his own in just those 5 years in Atlanta. 

 

Michael Vick is no disappointment in anyone's "hindsight" that is important to the Atlanta Falcons organization. His dogfighting is a different story. Vick made that place relevant again after their 1998 SB run, because before and after that 98 season the Falcons was for the most part of no relevance until Mike Vick arrived.

As they say, cool story, bro. Hardly the story of a revolutionary NFL QB, though.

[Bleedin Green]

As they say, cool story, bro. Hardly the story of a revolutionary NFL QB, though.

 

It's looking like Vick has his very own LETSGOJETS.

[jgb]

The definition of one particular word is all that cannot be debated, if you have an issue with that, I suppose you can take it up with the folks over at merriam-webster.  The points I made beyond that were making note of logical fallacies and distorted facts that existed throughout your arguments.  You of course could have attempted to defend your points, but it seems you instead opted to take it as some great injustice to be proven wrong.  After all, if it was simply a matter of ending the debate, you could have just left the thread, not felt the need to make multiple pouty posts in response.

 

ah jesus have we really stooped to grammarian gotcha attacks

[jgb]

While I can admit I may find it grating, I also know it generally is just a defense mechanism used as an excuse not to respond.  We all know that he still read every word of it, despite what he claims, which just leads me to believe that he was incapable of forming a valid response to the points made.

 

So I'll just go ahead and assume I've won the argument until he can prove otherwise.

 

you are the cicero of messageboards. too bad fart jokes and swearing resonate more with this crowd.

[#27TheDominator]

Roddy White: 2 years with Vick: 29/446 4 TDs and 30/506 and 0

Next 2 years: 83/1201 6 TDs (Joey Harringon/Byron Leftwich/Chris Redman) 88/1382 and 7 (Matt Ryan)

 

Weapnz!

[jgb]

can't we all just compromise and agree vick did revolutionize one "sport" but it wasn't football

[Bleedin Green]

ah jesus have we really stooped to grammarian gotcha attacks

 

This would seem to suggest we hadn't already stooped to this point long before this.

 

 

you are the cicero of messageboards. too bad fart jokes and swearing resonate more with this crowd.

 

Oh yeah?  Well you smell like a fart.  Also, um... ****.

[jgb]

This would seem to suggest we hadn't already stooped to this point long before this.

 

you stoop to a level, not to a point. look it up. gotcha!

[Bleedin Green]

you stoop to a level, not to a point. look it up. gotcha!

 

Ha... ass.

 

 

Besides, a level could qualify as a potential point, so there!

[jgb]

Roddy White: 2 years with Vick: 29/446 4 TDs and 30/506 and 0

Next 2 years: 83/1201 6 TDs (Joey Harringon/Byron Leftwich/Chris Redman) 88/1382 and 7 (Matt Ryan)

 

Weapnz!

 

never hope a player gets hurt but it would be glorious to watch sanchez stink up the joint in philly

[jgb]

Ha... ass.

 

 

Besides, a level could qualify as a potential point, so there!

 

obviously you missed the point of my response, but i won't stoop to your level by responding again

[Lizard King]

When I typed in "Tool" into my phone, auto-replace attempted to replace it with Vick. 

[Villain The Foe]

Roddy White: 2 years with Vick: 29/446 4 TDs and 30/506 and 0

Next 2 years: 83/1201 6 TDs (Joey Harringon/Byron Leftwich/Chris Redman) 88/1382 and 7 (Matt Ryan)

 

Weapnz!

Whites rookie and 2nd year in the league was Vicks last two years in ATL, but you of course knew that. You also know that its a general understanding that WR's usually hit their stride in their 3rd year if they're going to be any good in the NFL. Whites first 1000 season came in his 3rd year (Joey Harrington/Byron Leftwich), In Matt Ryan's rookie year Roddy Whites was entering his prime. 

[Villain The Foe]

As they say, cool story, bro. Hardly the story of a revolutionary NFL QB, though.

Looking back with that "20/20 hindsight", it was a pretty cool story lol. The only uncool part of this story is that if he didnt go to jail for a stupid ass act like dog fighting the view in the eyes of the general public would be much more on his game and would have allowed people to actually acknowledge what he did in just those five years in ATL as a dual threat QB, not just the typical scrambling QB which for the most part was the type of QB's before him. 

 

Good debate Slats. 

[#27TheDominator]

Whites rookie and 2nd year in the league was Vicks last two years in ATL, but you of course knew that. You also know that its a general understanding that WR's usually hit their stride in their 3rd year if they're going to be any good in the NFL. Whites first 1000 season came in his 3rd year (Joey Harrington/Byron Leftwich), In Matt Ryan's rookie year Roddy Whites was entering his prime. 

 

If the 3rd year is a light switch, why am I hearing Hilli is getting cut?  

 

General understanding is a fancy way of saying some douchebag said something.  Most top WRs do not take that long.  Dez Bryant 45/561/6 and 63/928/9.  Julio Jones  54/959/8 and 79/1198/10 AJ Green 65/1057/7 and 97/1358/11.  Yes, there is truth to White being young and inexperienced, but the guy exploded with stiffs throwing him the ball the following season.  

 

Complaning about Vick's weapons is pretty weak, because Warrick Dunn was no joke and probably as much a QBs friend as any back in the NFL. If we were arguing his place in the top QBs of 2001-2006, maybe, but revolutionary? Wouldn't that transcend having to cope with Brian Finneran?  He also had first round pick Michael Jenkins for three years, a solid/mediocre receiver who had his best years with Ryan. Peerless Price in his prime who was coming off a 1200 yard season in Buffalo with Bledsoe. He might not have had Stallworth/Swann or Rice/Taylor, but it wasn't the 2013 Jets either. 

[Villain The Foe]

If the 3rd year is a light switch, why am I hearing Hilli is getting cut?  

 

General understanding is a fancy way of saying some douchebag said something.  Most top WRs do not take that long.  Dez Bryant 45/561/6 and 63/928/9.  Julio Jones  54/959/8 and 79/1198/10 AJ Green 65/1057/7 and 97/1358/11.  Yes, there is truth to White being young and inexperienced, but the guy exploded with stiffs throwing him the ball the following season.  

 

Complaning about Vick's weapons is pretty weak, because Warrick Dunn was no joke and probably as much a QBs friend as any back in the NFL. If we were arguing his place in the top QBs of 2001-2006, maybe, but revolutionary? Wouldn't that transcend having to cope with Brian Finneran?  He also had first round pick Michael Jenkins for three years, a solid/mediocre receiver who had his best years with Ryan. Peerless Price in his prime who was coming off a 1200 yard season in Buffalo with Bledsoe. He might not have had Stallworth/Swann or Rice/Taylor, but it wasn't the 2013 Jets either. 

Because you're hearing it from critics, analyst and fans. You're not hearing that from Rex Ryan, Marty Morningwheg and Jon Idzik. 

 

For every Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, and AJ Green that hit the floor running during their rookie year I can name you multiple guys who didnt get it going until their 2nd, 3rd and 4th year and ended up being top flight WR's in the league. You and I both know that it generally takes a few years to get things going for WR's. There's plenty of WR's who looked like Stephen Hill in their first year and exploded in their 2nd year such as Alshon Jeffery. The best receiver in the game in Calvin Johnson wasn't even a 800 yard receiving rookie and had only 4 TD's. In his second year he showed what he was about, by 2011 we knew that we were looking at greatness.

 

Alshon Jeffery and Brandon Marshall, 2nd year. Roddy White, 3rd year. Reggie Wayne, 4th year. Jordy Nelson, 4th year. Pierre Garcon, 4th year. Eric Decker, 3rd year. Wes Welker, 3rd year. Miles Austin totaled 350 yards his first two years, his 3rd he racked up 1,320. Vincent Jackson, 4th year. etc, etc, etc. 

 

AJ Green is a beast and in about two years he may be the clear cut best WR in the league. But its way rarer to get a guy to hit the ground like that in their rookie year than to get a guy who gets it going by year 3. 

[#27TheDominator]

Because you're hearing it from critics, analyst and fans. You're not hearing that from Rex Ryan, Marty Morningwheg and Jon Idzik. 

 

For every Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, and AJ Green that hit the floor running during their rookie year I can name you multiple guys who didnt get it going until their 2nd, 3rd and 4th year and ended up being top flight WR's in the league. You and I both know that it generally takes a few years to get things going for WR's. There's plenty of WR's who looked like Stephen Hill in their first year and exploded in their 2nd year such as Alshon Jeffery. The best receiver in the game in Calvin Johnson wasn't even a 800 yard receiving rookie and had only 4 TD's. In his second year he showed what he was about, by 2011 we knew that we were looking at greatness.

 

Alshon Jeffery and Brandon Marshall, 2nd year. Roddy White, 3rd year. Reggie Wayne, 4th year. Jordy Nelson, 4th year. Pierre Garcon, 4th year. Eric Decker, 3rd year. Wes Welker, 3rd year. Miles Austin totaled 350 yards his first two years, his 3rd he racked up 1,320. Vincent Jackson, 4th year. etc, etc, etc. 

 

AJ Green is a beast and in about two years he may be the clear cut best WR in the league. But its way rarer to get a guy to hit the ground like that in their rookie year than to get a guy who gets it going by year 3. 

 

Then why not cut Stephen Hill some slack? 

[Villain The Foe]

Then why not cut Stephen Hill some slack? 

Because I wanted Alshon Jeffery instead of him....and I wanted Jordan Matthews this year lol. 

 

Seirously though, Its because we're jet fans and we want things to come about immediately. It never seems to happen for us. This is why we're fans and not the head of operations. 

[Villain The Foe]

I was on GangGreenNation.com's site and found it pretty ironic that his article came out yesterday while we've been having this discussion. My point whats always that Mike Vicks "rushing was revolutionary for a QB" because he's redefined the standard for today's game regarding what we expect from what is expected from the QB position. Not just scramblers, but true dual threat QB's. And we're beginning to see that trend become more of a mainstay. Then I come across this article. 

 

http://www.heraldonline.com/2014/06/26/6095767/carolina-panthers-quarterback.html?sp=/100/102/

 

Carolina Panthers quarterback Cam Newton a model for new generation of QBs

Read more here: http://www.heraldonline.com/2014/06/26/6095767/carolina-panthers-quarterback.html?sp=/100/102/#storylink=cpy

CORNELIUS — As a young quarterback, the Carolina Panthers’ Cam Newton emulated Michael Vick, who turned 34 on Thursday.

That’s old in quarterback years, but Vick, a backup for the New York Jets, has a legacy that lives on among a young crop of dual-threat NFL quarterbacks.

 

Thursday, at his foundation’s 7-on-7 passing tournament at Hough High, Newton, 25, saw a number of teenage quarterbacks who emulate him the same way he patterned his game after Vick’s.

 

“(Newton) definitely set the standard for players like me growing up,” Butler senior quarterback Anthony Ratliff said. “Watching him has definitely been a changing experience for me and knowing that guys (with) my style of quarterback can make it in the NFL and break records. It’s something to look up to and reach for.”

Growing up in Atlanta, Newton styled his game after Vick, then a rocket-armed quarterback for the Falcons who could beat defenses with his feet as well. Now Newton is among a group of young, dual-threat quarterbacks, along with the Seahawks’ Russell Wilson and the 49ers’ Colin Kaepernick, who hope to change the way the position is played.

 

Newton doesn’t want to just shape teenage quarterbacks by his play on Sundays, though. He’s been active this summer with 7-on-7 camps in Alabama, Georgia and North Carolina, trying to be approachable to young players.

“I think it’s even more important to be accessible,” Newton said. “To be touched and looked at and talked to. Some of these kids are screaming for help by the attitudes and their personas. They may not know how to ask, ‘Hey Cam, how do you feel about this?’ But for me being around them, they may feel more comfortable to ask questions.”

Some of those questions, Newton said, are things like how he picked Florida coming out of Westlake High School, or what it felt like to jump from Florida to junior college to Auburn.

But he knows those questions sometimes don’t come on the first day star-struck kids meet an NFL superstar.

“The more these kids see me and are comfortable with me, that’s what matters,” Newton said.

Ratliff, a North Carolina commitment who had not met Newton before Thursday, already had a question lined up. He wanted to know when Newton knew he would devote his life to football, because Ratliff has known since he was 10, he said.

As Butler’s quarterback, Ratliff completed 151 of his 253 passes last season for 2,558 yards. He threw for 34 touchdowns and had seven interceptions. On the ground, Ratliff led Butler in rushing with 1,655 yards on 195 carries and scored 20 touchdowns.

Ratliff can rattle off the accomplishments of dual-threat quarterbacks, like when Newton broke Peyton Manning’s record for most passing yards as a rookie, or Kaepernick going to back-to-back conference championships.

“You definitely have to study the guys who make it because you want to be in their shoes one day,” said Ratliff.

Butler coach Brian Hales calls Ratliff, who stands at 6-foot-2 and 200 pounds, a football junkie. He said he knew Ratliff was the Bulldogs’ quarterback of the future when Ratliff was a freshman.

Playing behind Christian LeMay and Riley Ferguson during his first two years, Ratliff became the full-time starter in 2013. That’s when Hales added more zone-read plays into his spread offense.

“You can see everybody change the way they started to run their offense,” Hales said of the influx of athletic quarterbacks. “And then it started to create a lot of opportunities for athletes like that who could also throw the ball. Now you’re looking at it from a defensive perspective, it gives you so much more that you have to worry about and prepare for. It’s been great for the game.”

Along with his 7-on-7 tournaments, Newton also formed a 7-on-7 team to compete in the IMG Academy 7-on-7 tournament in Bradenton, Fla., earlier this month. Instead of flying down and meeting the team, he rode the bus with kids and stopped at a Shoney’s and gas stations along the way.

Newton said interacting with kids offers him a diversion from the offseason scrutiny and drives him to be a better role model.

“They’re looking to see why I do it,” Newton said. “‘Why does he keep wearing a smile? Is it a fake smile? Is it something that’s genuine?’ For me to be around these kids, it puts it all into perspective for me.

“This is why I work out. This is why I always try to keep my image as flawless as possible. Because for those kids, I go from a hero to a guy where they can say, ‘Oh Cam, he’s just like us.’ ”

Read more here: http://www.heraldonline.com/2014/06/26/6095767/carolina-panthers-quarterback.html?sp=/100/102/#storylink=cpy

[jgb]

Because I wanted Alshon Jeffery instead of him....and I wanted Jordan Matthews this year lol. 

 

Seirously though, Its because we're jet fans and we want things to come about immediately. It never seems to happen for us. This is why we're fans and not the head of operations. 

 

have the jets ever had an immediate-impact stud rookie on offense? keyshawn martin with 844/8? that our best and 20 years ago? that's pathetic really.

[Villain The Foe]

have the jets ever had an immediate-impact stud rookie on offense? keyshawn martin with 844/8? that our best and 20 years ago? that's pathetic really.

Sure is pathetic. Hopefully Amaro can change that for us. 

[Sperm Edwards]

have the jets ever had an immediate-impact stud rookie on offense? keyshawn martin with 844/8? that our best and 20 years ago? that's pathetic really.

 

who?

[jgb]

who?

 

brainfart. that's how long it's been

[#27TheDominator]

who?

 

He was a 4th round pick by the Texans in 2012 out of Michigan State.. 

[Larz]

villian, dual threat QB's go back to the 1930's

[Bleedin Green]

villian, dual threat QB's go back to the 1930's

 

Yeah, but everyone knows they obviously don't count prior to 2001.  Get your head out of your ass.

[Villain The Foe]

villian, dual threat QB's go back to the 1930's

Not one as revolutionary to the run aspect of the game as Vick.  you don't have go go back to the 30's to find a dual threat qb, Cunningham was himself....just not on the level as Vick. So I have to agree with bleedin green, Vick made those qb's prior to 2001 irrelevant in the run game dept. 

[Larz]

Not one as revolutionary to the run aspect of the game as Vick.  you don't have go go back to the 30's to find a dual threat qb, Cunningham was himself....just not on the level as Vick. So I have to agree with bleedin green, Vick made those qb's prior to 2001 irrelevant in the run game dept. 

 

QB's used to be the teams best runner.  he didn't change anything.  QB's also used to not wear helmets, had real jobs in the off season, and played 12 game seasons, so the stats may not seem impressive, but a running QB is nothing new.

 

all that changed is QB's got super specialized for a period of time.  it's a cycle

 

after a few of these guys get their knees blown off, it will be back to pocket passers

[Villain The Foe]

QB's used to be the teams best runner.  he didn't change anything.  QB's also used to not wear helmets, had real jobs in the off season, and played 12 game seasons, so the stats may not seem impressive, but a running QB is nothing new.

 

all that changed is QB's got super specialized for a period of time.  it's a cycle

 

after a few of these guys get their knees blown off, it will be back to pocket passers

Okay....None of what you said changes anything.