Michael Irvin and Cris Carter assess Stephen Hill

[dundunit]

Just all draft picks are what they were in college. What a dumb comment.

Kerley is a short receiver with barely 4.6 speed. Those guys are rarely what they were in college.

It kills you to suggest he was coached up because he was coach-able up. Like Edwards, who lost his dropsies thing - which he was famous for - only after being a Jet. Holmes was just fine...until he got $20M in guaranteed money. He may be fine again now that he's back on a show-me deal again.

Hill may not be able to be coached, and while acknowledging this, still you place the blame at the head coach. Then you complain about other teams having late round WR picks, but not the Jets, despite knowing that is a patently false statement.

Pathetic.

There will be three major contributors to our offense this year that have been "developed" under Rex. They would be Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland. Powell and Kerley are both 5th round picks and Cumberland is undrafted, so we are producing low pick (or non picks) that are contributing. Now I don't really know how you can contribute to development of a player as a head coach, because I believe that development falls under the positional coaches job and the head coach's and coordinators' job is to formulate strategy and put their players in the best position to succeed.

 

In my opinion the development of Hill has been retarded by the terrible QB play and Sanjay Lal. I don't understand what Lal is doing. He had horrible WRs in Oakland and has horrible WRs here. I don't know if that is bad luck or just simply him being a bad developmental coach. To blame Rex for not developing player to me is kind of comical. Are we to expect Rex to sit with every player and talk about the fundamentals of every position? That isn't realistic, that is why each position has their own coach. It is the positional coach's job to sit down with each one of their position players and hone their talent.

[AFJF]

No the worst thing is that he gets more playing time to suck and hurt the offense that is bad to begin with. He's worse now than he was 2 years ago. If Idzik wasn't a complete incompetent and hadn't drafted 3 WR's won't contribute to the team AT ALL, Hill would probably already be gone.

 

Okay, but when Hill was drafted, there were tons of people....fans, media, scouts, analysts who said that it was going to take a few years for Hill to get his head on straight.  They said that Jets fans would have to be patient and give him a few years.  Well, this is the start of year three.  Is it at all possible that you may be incorrect and Hill could develop into a solid contributor this season and grow from there, or is it just absoultely 100% impossible for him to do what everyone said he would do...take time? 

[ZachEY]

There will be three major contributors to our offense this year that have been "developed" under Rex. They would be Powell, Kerley, and Cumberland. Powell and Kerley are both 5th round picks and Cumberland is undrafted, so we are producing low pick (or non picks) that are contributing. Now I don't really know how you can contribute to development of a player as a head coach, because I believe that development falls under the positional coaches job and the head coach's and coordinators' job is to formulate strategy and put their players in the best position to succeed.

 

In my opinion the development of Hill has been retarded by the terrible QB play and Sanjay Lal. I don't understand what Lal is doing. He had horrible WRs in Oakland and has horrible WRs here. I don't know if that is bad luck or just simply him being a bad developmental coach. To blame Rex for not developing player to me is kind of comical. Are we to expect Rex to sit with every player and talk about the fundamentals of every position? That isn't realistic, that is why each position has their own coach. It is the positional coach's job to sit down with each one of their position players and hone their talent.

 

Agree with the 1st part.

 

Not so sure about the 2nd.  Hill had 49 catches in college.  Maybe he's not a football player.  I certainly hoped for and expected bigger things.  Still do.  But, some guys just don't have it, despite the athletic ability.

[unbanmadmike1]

Okay, but when Hill was drafted, there were tons of people....fans, media, scouts, analysts who said that it was going to take a few years for Hill to get his head on straight.  They said that Jets fans would have to be patient and give him a few years.  Well, this is the start of year three.  Is it at all possible that you may be incorrect and Hill could develop into a solid contributor this season and grow from there, or is it just absoultely 100% impossible for him to do what everyone said he would do...take time? 

We would've seen signs by now. It's not possible. 

[#27TheDominator]

Would agree here. Hill looked holy crap terrible from he start as did Gholston. Jets have a habit of taking guys who simply can't play for whatever reason.

 

Hill looked awkward and uncomfortable, but not useless.  The problem is rather than a 2nd round pick that could blossom, he has generally looked like Jonathan Carter. A guy good for some bombs that will work hard and struggle, but just has no smoothness or wiggle and is a crap shoot with the ball.  He can hit a homerun, but he is going to strike out way too much. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Hill looked awkward and uncomfortable, but not useless.  The problem is rather than a 2nd round pick that could blossom, he has generally looked like Jonathan Carter. A guy good for some bombs that will work hard and struggle, but just has no smoothness or wiggle and is a crap shoot with the ball.  He can hit a homerun, but he is going to strike out way too much. 

 

Interesting comparison.

[AFJF]

We would've seen signs by now. It's not possible. 

 

Could it be at all possible that the combo of sub-par QB play and injuries has significanlty limited his opportunities?  I would freely admit that if he had played 30 games up to this  point, with quality QB play and posted the numbers he has posted, that it may be time to move on.  But this kid posesses rare physical skills that I would hate to see a team give up on based on a few dings and poor QB play. I say you have to give  Hill one more shot to show something.  If he can't get open and make some plays this year, move on.  But if you cut him before seeing what he can do with some game time under his belt and improved QB play, I'd dread facing him with Tom Brady throwing him the ball after the Jets took a couple years to break him in to the league. 

[unbanmadmike1]

Could it be at all possible that the combo of sub-par QB play and injuries has significanlty limited his opportunities?  I would freely admit that if he had played 30 games up to this  point, with quality QB play and posted the numbers he has posted, that it may be time to move on.  But this kid posesses rare physical skills that I would hate to see a team give up on based on a few dings and poor QB play. I say you have to give  Hill one more shot to show something.  If he can't get open and make some plays this year, move on.  But if you cut him before seeing what he can do with some game time under his belt and improved QB play, I'd dread facing him with Tom Brady throwing him the ball after the Jets took a couple years to break him in to the league. 

No. We would've seen something by now. 

[AFJF]

No. We would've seen something by now. 

 

Okay, again we an agree to disagree.  I'm not saying he's going to pan out, I'm just saying that he was a raw player who was put in a far from ideal situation to develop and grow.  He may or may not, but I'd rather they didn't give up on him after just 23 games.  Even if he ends up moving down the depth chart, I'd like to have a guy with his skill-set coming on the field as a 5th WR.  As a fan, I hope he does come on strong and become a solid contributor which of course would start this Friday against the Giants.

[Sperm Edwards]

Okay, again we an agree to disagree.  I'm not saying he's going to pan out, I'm just saying that he was a raw player who was put in a far from ideal situation to develop and grow.  He may or may not, but I'd rather they didn't give up on him after just 23 games.  Even if he ends up moving down the depth chart, I'd like to have a guy with his skill-set coming on the field as a 5th WR.  As a fan, I hope he does come on strong and become a solid contributor which of course would start this Friday against the Giants.

 

Only thing with being the 5th WR is we have young guys who will play special teams that should occupy a slot that low. There are only so many people we can keep on the roster.  I'm not saying cut him now, but he's really not showing enough so far. I get that he was raw, but this is his 3rd NFL training camp and he's 100% healthy. Even if he was banged up during last year's, he was still there for the mental aspects of the game, not to mention how many hours he's probably worked with the JUGS machine.

 

It sucks. He's really super-fast, has great size, and I've seen clips of him making some amazing catches. But he's still not really putting it all together.

[AFJF]

Only thing with being the 5th WR is we have young guys who will play special teams that should occupy a slot that low. There are only so many people we can keep on the roster.  I'm not saying cut him now, but he's really not showing enough so far. I get that he was raw, but this is his 3rd NFL training camp and he's 100% healthy. Even if he was banged up during last year's, he was still there for the mental aspects of the game, not to mention how many hours he's probably worked with the JUGS machine.

 

It sucks. He's really super-fast, has great size, and I've seen clips of him making some amazing catches. But he's still not really putting it all together.

 

Agreed on all counts...he's gotta step up and make plays this year.  If not, he'll be one of many guys to pass through this league with a ton of talent who didn't pan out.  Of course I have no doubt that he'll catch on somewhere else and get it together, but you can only let a guy keep a roster spot for so long.  It's time for him to produce.

[unbanmadmike1]

Agreed on all counts...he's gotta step up and make plays this year.  If not, he'll be one of many guys to pass through this league with a ton of talent who didn't pan out.  Of course I have no doubt that he'll catch on somewhere else and get it together, but you can only let a guy keep a roster spot for so long.  It's time for him to produce.

Basically you're talking about him being 4th or 5th on a depth chart that has 2 NFL caliber WR's. 

[AFJF]

Basically you're talking about him being 4th or 5th on a depth chart that has 2 NFL caliber WR's. 

 

I'd say that all depends on what you consider to be "NFL caliber".  I think David Nelson is an NFL caliber WR who will do a solid if unspectacular job.  He played reasonably well last season for a guy who didn't get a camp with the team, and he put up over 650 yards a few seasons ago on a mediocre Bills team.  His numbers project out to about 600 yards over a sixteen game stretch last season.  I wouldn't say he's a phenom, but I'd say he's not a bad guy to have on your roster. So, I consider a guy who should realistically contribute 600 yards to be NFL caliber.

[unbanmadmike1]

I'd say that all depends on what you consider to be "NFL caliber".  I think David Nelson is an NFL caliber WR who will do a solid if unspectacular job.  He played reasonably well last season for a guy who didn't get a camp with the team, and he put up over 650 yards a few seasons ago on a mediocre Bills team.  His numbers project out to about 600 yards over a sixteen game stretch last season.  I wouldn't say he's a phenom, but I'd say he's not a bad guy to have on your roster. So, I consider a guy who should realistically contribute 600 yards to be NFL caliber.

Nelson was terrible last year. He barely caught 50% of his targets and wasn't very productive on the ones he did. But those are the guys you end up having to play when you have laughable offensive talent.  He wouldn't even make most decent offensive rosters. 

[AFJF]

Nelson was terrible last year. He barely caught 50% of his targets and wasn't very productive on the ones he did. But those are the guys you end up having to play when you have laughable offensive talent.  He wouldn't even make most decent offensive rosters. 

 

Geno wasn't exactly making it easy on his guys last year.  He was all over the place with his throws, and obviously not a lot of chemistry having not had a camp together.  He may end up not bringing much to the table, but that's why I specified that it depends on what you consier "NFL Caliber".  To me, an NFL player who can produce 600 yards of offense is "capable"...the player isn't great, and the player isn't somebody you build a franchise around.  However, if you look around the league, even the best teams have players who are not elite at their position, but they're solid contributors.  Every team needs solid players too.

[#27TheDominator]

Geno wasn't exactly making it easy on his guys last year.  He was all over the place with his throws, and obviously not a lot of chemistry having not had a camp together.  He may end up not bringing much to the table, but that's why I specified that it depends on what you consier "NFL Caliber".  To me, an NFL player who can produce 600 yards of offense is "capable"...the player isn't great, and the player isn't somebody you build a franchise around.  However, if you look around the league, even the best teams have players who are not elite at their position, but they're solid contributors.  Every team needs solid players too.

 

All Pro or bust. 

[unbanmadmike1]

Geno wasn't exactly making it easy on his guys last year.  He was all over the place with his throws, and obviously not a lot of chemistry having not had a camp together.  He may end up not bringing much to the table, but that's why I specified that it depends on what you consier "NFL Caliber".  To me, an NFL player who can produce 600 yards of offense is "capable"...the player isn't great, and the player isn't somebody you build a franchise around.  However, if you look around the league, even the best teams have players who are not elite at their position, but they're solid contributors.  Every team needs solid players too.

You're defining the terms "solid" and "capable" down so far they basically completely lose all meaning. Why can't we just accept reality and admit that the WR talent level on this team is horrendously bad and that's AFTER they signed Decker. 

[Integrity28]

Cris Carter is an idiot.

[Larz]

not to mention how many hours he's probably worked with the JUGS machine.

 

 

Maybe he's just doing it wrong ?

 

 

 

I can't tell you the internet journey I went on to find a funny pic for that comment.  I'm so ashamed.

[#27TheDominator]

I wonder what the coaches really think about Hill. The quote my Lal does not sound good.  OTOH, last season there was talk they were going to limit him and a bunch of articles claiming he was going to be benched or worse.  It turned out that Mornhinweg was trying to limit Hill because he had been running him too hard in practice because he was one of the only healthy guys he trusted.  That contributed to his knee problems while guys like Winslow and Holmes were on pitch counts. 

[Matt39]

Nelson's a backup type guy...a guy who will be on a roster every training camp but will always be on the fringe. He had absolutely no second gear on the opening deep ball Geno threw to him...and he's terrible at coming back on the football. He doesn't play physical.

[AFJF]

You're defining the terms "solid" and "capable" down so far they basically completely lose all meaning. Why can't we just accept reality and admit that the WR talent level on this team is horrendously bad and that's AFTER they signed Decker. 

 

So a player who goes out and puts up 600 yards of offense for an NFL team, is not NFL caliber?  What's the minimum amount of production a player has to provide in order to be "NFL Caliber", honestly just curious.

[Sperm Edwards]

I wonder what the coaches really think about Hill. The quote my Lal does not sound good.  OTOH, last season there was talk they were going to limit him and a bunch of articles claiming he was going to be benched or worse.  It turned out that Mornhinweg was trying to limit Hill because he had been running him too hard in practice because he was one of the only healthy guys he trusted.  That contributed to his knee problems while guys like Winslow and Holmes were on pitch counts. 

 

Yeah. When the guy's WR coach says, in his 3rd camp with the team, that (in so many words) maybe Hill is a bust, it's really discouraging. Sure, he dressed it up by saying that it's premature to call it that yet, but that's a far cry from verbally slamming the door on the idea. Hell, he could have just said, "No," for starters.

[unbanmadmike1]

So a player who goes out and puts up 600 yards of offense for an NFL team, is not NFL caliber?  What's the minimum amount of production a player has to provide in order to be "NFL Caliber", honestly just curious.

Just because you put a guy out there who was an OK college player and threw the ball at him 80 times doesn't mean he's NFL caliber. His production on those 80 chances was truly terrible. 

[Bugg]

The moderators make it worse by encouraging beatdowns of any dissenting opinion. There used to be a lot of lively conversation here--we had fans of every team that used to come in and debate. But, now, that's gone. They're gone. I was gone for two years here and when I came back, everyone was gone. At first I thought it was because the JI dudes chased them out. But it's not. It's you dudes. You've turned this place into a Skip Bayless acid trip.

Not sure the bust that Steven Hill is is the hill to have your anti-Rex argument die on. It's simply accepted by the owner (again a cheap bastard who limited his GM choice to a yes man who would save him a few dollars by retaining Ryan) and management to have a HC who brings nothing to the offense. Scary that some fans here accept that as okay. 45 years of crappy football will do that to you.It's like living with a person with a susbtance abuse problem and accepting it uncritically. 

 

What is more disturbing as you have pointed out Ryan doesn't develop any defenders. if they arrive here as the finished product, great. But Wilson and Coples have sucked from the day they showed up. And while everyone looks at Millner as THE NFL'S GREATEST CORNER IN DECEMBER 2013, why did he suck the first 3 months of the season? Why does a team run by a DEFENSIVE GENIUS still only generate a pass rush with OLBs and safeties blitizing? why is that accepted? 

 

As a fan, we're approaching something like Stockholm Syndrome, accepting this suck as normal. Think the Bengals' OL coach is wrong to criticize Ryan for playing defense. But once again you get a glimpse at the total lack of respect around the NFL there is for this buffoon Jets HC.  Scary that plausiby the Jets could again eke out 7-9 wins and save his sorry ass, or at least keep him around to save Woody Johnson some bucks next season. Really  T0m is not crazy to expect a HC to make his players better and have some positive role in the offense. It's crazy to think otherwise. 

[Larz]

"But once again you get a glimpse at the total lack of respect around the NFL there is for this buffoon Jets HC"
 

 

actually I heard on the radio about 10 days ago that rex is considered an innovator and very well respected. Tim hasselbeck said it.  the question posed to him was "what about these new york jets?" this was right after they had been doing all the talking.  I braced myself for the usual hysterical non-sense.

 

instead he compared rex to dick lebeau in that they brought something to the NFL that didn't exist prior to him creating it

 

I bet you don't even know what it is

[Matt39]

"But once again you get a glimpse at the total lack of respect around the NFL there is for this buffoon Jets HC"

actually I heard on the radio about 10 days ago that rex is considered an innovator and very well respected. Tim hasselbeck said it. the question posed to him was "what about these new york jets?" this was right after they had been doing all the talking. I braced myself for the usual hysterical non-sense.

instead he compared rex to dick lebeau in that they brought something to the NFL that didn't exist prior to him creating it

I bet you don't even know what it is

Problem is, the perception of Rex is that if a defensive coach and not a Head Coach. Lebeau wasn't a good HC either...great football mind though.

[NCJETSFAN]

Regardless if Rex raised Kerley from infancy and trained him in a lab to become the slot receiver he is today, that's the one success story in six years.

That's the problem. 6 years. And we can't develop. One offensive player.

[JetsFanInDenver]

 

 

 

 

Where all the guys who claimed that the notion that Stephen Hill gets cut is absurd, now?

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but even the article concludes that he will be on the JETS regular season roster.

[RutgersJetFan]

So, weaponz?

[NJ]

 I am probably the most hated guy on this board (yes, probably more than you)

 

I   you, buddy

 

 

On the topic of Stephen Hill ... slow off the line .... no hands .... no moxy ...  and inability to run  a good part of the route tree effectively will almost certainly put Stephen Hill in the same place next fall that he's in right now.

Only difference being it wont be in a Jet uniform.

[Bugg]

Problem is, the perception of Rex is that if a defensive coach and not a Head Coach. Lebeau wasn't a good HC either...great football mind though.

Exactly. Like Lebeau a guy who while good as a DC under a competent HC has no business being a HC.

[Larz]

Exactly. Like Lebeau a guy who while good as a DC under a competent HC has no business being a HC.

 

so why is rex respected around the league ?  what is the innovation he is credited with ?

[#27TheDominator]

Not sure the bust that Steven Hill is is the hill to have your anti-Rex argument die on. It's simply accepted by the owner (again a cheap bastard who limited his GM choice to a yes man who would save him a few dollars by retaining Ryan) and management to have a HC who brings nothing to the offense. Scary that some fans here accept that as okay. 45 years of crappy football will do that to you.It's like living with a person with a susbtance abuse problem and accepting it uncritically. 

 

What is more disturbing as you have pointed out Ryan doesn't develop any defenders. if they arrive here as the finished product, great. But Wilson and Coples have sucked from the day they showed up. And while everyone looks at Millner as THE NFL'S GREATEST CORNER IN DECEMBER 2013, why did he suck the first 3 months of the season? Why does a team run by a DEFENSIVE GENIUS still only generate a pass rush with OLBs and safeties blitizing? why is that accepted? 

 

As a fan, we're approaching something like Stockholm Syndrome, accepting this suck as normal. Think the Bengals' OL coach is wrong to criticize Ryan for playing defense. But once again you get a glimpse at the total lack of respect around the NFL there is for this buffoon Jets HC.  Scary that plausiby the Jets could again eke out 7-9 wins and save his sorry ass, or at least keep him around to save Woody Johnson some bucks next season. Really  T0m is not crazy to expect a HC to make his players better and have some positive role in the offense. It's crazy to think otherwise. 

 

Another calculated and reasoned response.  

 

Wilson and Coples are what they were when the came into the league.  Richardson and WIlkerson apparently did not improve either.  Milliner did improve?  WHY WASN'T HE GOOD FROM DAY 1?!?!?!  Davis, McIntyre, Antonio Allen, Devito, etc have all improved to differing levels.  Revis has been under 3 coaches and had, by far, his best seasons under Rex.  Danny Woodhead and James Ihedigbo comprise the entire of list of guys that left the Jets and did better elsewhere, offense AND defense, BUT WHY DOESN'T REX DEVELOP TALENT?

[Larz]

Problem is, the perception of Rex is that if a defensive coach and not a Head Coach. Lebeau wasn't a good HC either...great football mind though.

 

Rex is a great defensive mind as well.  GREAT.  he played chess with manning and brady on the road in the playoffs and had to hold them to under 22 points to beat them with eric smith , brodney pool, and other scrubs in the secondary and bart scott in coverage.

 

the legitimate criticisms of rex are all on the HC side.  loyal to a fault.  lack of discipline.  no accountability for QB to protect the ball.  open mouth media policy.  regrettable tatoo's

 

he went 8-8 with the worst starting QB in football.

 

just calling him a bafoon that gets no respect is ignorant