2015 QB

[Warfish]

This team, at the bottom of the division, isn't in a place to make low risk moves. Now is the time for high risk moves. It can't get worse.

 

Sure it can.

 

I'm well aware you have a hard-on for Winston, and discount all the risk involved with him.

 

But that aside, he has a material potential to be Ryan Leaf II, a total disaster.  And honestly, he seems to have very little chance of being a Dan Marino.

 

Sorry, but that kind of risk is the kind that sets a franchise back 5 more years if it fails, and with the Jets, it WILL fail, almost assuredly. 

 

I love you Bit, but honestly I'm not sure you've ever been overly right about talent evaluation and selection in the time I've known you.  You've backed a hell of a lot of bad horses over the years, and it seems you're backing a bad one again with Winston.  Except this time, it would cost most of our draft to get him.

 

I'm not trading my whole draft to move from #6 to #2 to get a potential Ryan Leaf.

I see lots of colored people becoming head coaches in the NFL; do you think they're smart enough to handle a white man's job, or are you not sold on them, too?

My favorite Jets coach since Joe Walton was Herm Edwards. My all time favorite Jet is Al Toon.

So what do you think?

Heaven forbid I prefer a traditional tall, strong, pocket passer over a flavor of the moment gimmick running back-turned-QB, eh.

[bitonti]

I love you Bit, but honestly I'm not sure you've ever been overly right about talent evaluation and selection in the time I've known you.  You've backed a hell of a lot of bad horses over the years, and it seems you're backing a bad one again with Winston. 

 

 

Fish I've said alot of right things over the years. Tons. for example I predicted the Jets would win this weekend. I said trading Revis was a mistake. I say tons of right things. The difference is that when I say something right everyone immediately forgets it. No one's looking after my correct predictions, they only look for the wrong ones. 

 

as for the Jets and Winston I'll say it again, it can't get any worse. the days of 50 mil QB contracts are gone. The Jets can take Winston this year and the next QB next year and keep drafting a first round QB every single year until they find one. Let them compete (shocking). They have the cap space to do it. These aren't big contracts. In fact they need to spend heavily to get above the floor, because they are below it for the last 2 years. 

 

BTW if Winston is such a thug turd worthless etc then he should be there at 6 right? The guy is a franchise killing hand grenade and yet he's going 2 overall? Ryan Leaf was 20 years ago, the league has actually gotten better at sussing out these players for example Geno Smith.

 

Put it another way if the Jets pass on the QB in 2015 draft, they aren't getting any better. They need to at least try. a 3-13 team planning for the future is dumb. That team needs a lightning strike.

[Jack Straw]

 

Sure it can.

 

I'm well aware you have a hard-on for Winston, and discount all the risk involved with him.

 

But that aside, he has a material potential to be Ryan Leaf II, a total disaster.  And honestly, he seems to have very little chance of being a Dan Marino.

 

Sorry, but that kind of risk is the kind that sets a franchise back 5 more years if it fails, and with the Jets, it WILL fail, almost assuredly. 

 

I love you Bit, but honestly I'm not sure you've ever been overly right about talent evaluation and selection in the time I've known you.  You've backed a hell of a lot of bad horses over the years, and it seems you're backing a bad one again with Winston.  Except this time, it would cost most of our draft to get him.

 

I'm not trading my whole draft to move from #6 to #2 to get a potential Ryan Leaf.

My favorite Jets coach since Joe Walton was Herm Edwards. My all time favorite Jet is Al Toon.

So what do you think?

Heaven forbid I prefer a traditional tall, strong, pocket passer over a flavor of the moment gimmick running back-turned-QB, eh.

 

Ryan Leaf and Marcus Mariota share exactly nothing in common. Mariota, by every account, was raised the right way, is a student of the game, and is loved by his coaches and teammates.

 

Per Chip Kelly, “I think Marcus will be successful whether he’s an NFL player, a banker, a teacher, a fireman, a policeman,” Kelly said Monday on 94WIP in Philly.  “I’ve said it before about some other players, but if you can buy stock in a human being, you buy stock in that kid because he’ll always be successful in anything he does. . . .  I felt lucky that I had an opportunity to coach a young man like that.  When you listen to his [Heisman Trophy] acceptance speech, I think it’s maybe a sliver of what we got the chance to experience every day to be around him.  He’s a special young man.  I know I’m better person for being associated with him.”

 

So yeah, comparing Mariota to Leaf is beyond dumb.

[patman]

No to everyone on that list.

 

Jets will retain Geno Smith.  He'll be the #1 for a few weeks in 2015.

 

Jets will trade up (at massive cost) for Winston (they won't be able to get Mariotta) who will start.

 

Jets will continue to waste the #3 spot on a guy they have no belief, plans or faith in.  Might even be Simms again.

 

That's the most likely outcome I see right now.  if Idzik is retained, the pressure to get "a Franchise QB" will force him to sell the Franchises future to get one of the top two, and only one is possible for us to get (as Tampa, at #1, will not win again, and will select Mariotta).

I don't think the jets will need to trade up for Winston.  Once he is personally sued, then sued along with Fla State, he may end up losing his full 2nd year in the NFL. He will drop out of school after the bowl game, and like Pryor from Ohio State jump to the NFL to avoid NCAA sanctions. Godell still hamered Pryor with the suspension. He will wait until Winston is found guilty or pays her off, but he will get suspended.

[Warfish]

Ryan Leaf and Marcus Mariota share exactly nothing in common. Mariota, by every account, was raised the right way, is a student of the game, and is loved by his coaches and teammates.

 

Per Chip Kelly, “I think Marcus will be successful whether he’s an NFL player, a banker, a teacher, a fireman, a policeman,” Kelly said Monday on 94WIP in Philly.  “I’ve said it before about some other players, but if you can buy stock in a human being, you buy stock in that kid because he’ll always be successful in anything he does. . . .  I felt lucky that I had an opportunity to coach a young man like that.  When you listen to his [Heisman Trophy] acceptance speech, I think it’s maybe a sliver of what we got the chance to experience every day to be around him.  He’s a special young man.  I know I’m better person for being associated with him.”

 

So yeah, comparing Mariota to Leaf is beyond dumb.

Apparently reading is not your best skill.

Notice in most of my posts I am discussing Winston, the QB we might be able to trade up (at great cost) to aquire.

Notice in your post you're discussing Mariota, a player we have 0% chance of acquiring at the #6 pick, no matter how many picks or players we throw at Tampa Bay.

In either case, I prefer pocket passers build like a Brady, a Manning, a Favre, etc. If I could draft Ken O'Brien today, I would, in a heartbeat, and this time I'd build I line to protect him.

[bitonti]

I don't think the jets will need to trade up for Winston.  Once he is personally sued, then sued along with Fla State, he may end up losing his full 2nd year in the NFL. He will drop out of school after the bowl game, and like Pryor from Ohio State jump to the NFL to avoid NCAA sanctions. 

 

 

here's a prediction for you Warfish:

 

none of those things will happen 

 

by the time the draft rolls around, Winston will have been scrubbed clean by the PR machine. 

 

by May all people will hear about is how he was all ACC honor roll in 2013-14 school year and how he won the Heisman. 

 

He will have been "cam Newton'ed" and people will say things like "he's just a kid, if there were cameras around when I was a kid, derp derp derp" 

 

The NFL only cares about crime, if it's on video (rice) or photo (AP). If it's allegations they sweep it under the rug like Big Ben. It's all about the product. 

 

Honestly what worries the most about Winston isn't his thug turd nature. It's the loathsome tradition of FSU QBs in the league. You have to go all the way back to Brad Johnson, a 9th rd pick in 1992 to find a decent one. They don't even have a 9th round anymore. 

 

but still, i'd rather watch that s--tshow and have even a microscopic chance of being good, as opposed to watching Geno Smith and knowing it's hopeless.

[Warfish]

Fish I've said alot of right things over the years. Tons. for example I predicted the Jets would win this weekend. I said trading Revis was a mistake. I say tons of right things. The difference is that when I say something right everyone immediately forgets it. No one's looking after my correct predictions, they only look for the wrong ones.

Welcome to the internet, where I can be right 98% of the time, and I'm still most known for wanting to start Patrick Ramsey.

And with respect Bit, you're wrong on talent eval a lot more often (by my memory) that you are right. 

 

as for the Jets and Winston I'll say it again, it can't get any worse. the days of 50 mil QB contracts are gone. The Jets can take Winston this year and the next QB next year and keep drafting a first round QB every single year until they find one. Let them compete (shocking). They have the cap space to do it. These aren't big contracts. In fact they need to spend heavily to get above the floor, because they are below it for the last 2 years.

Agree to disagree. Drafting a problem child, and playing him right away, is literally the worst decision this franchise can make for long term success. 

 

BTW if Winston is such a thug turd worthless etc then he should be there at 6 right? The guy is a franchise killing hand grenade and yet he's going 2 overall? Ryan Leaf was 20 years ago, the league has actually gotten better at sussing out these players for example Geno Smith.

bad teams make bad decisions, especially at QB. News at 11.

Hence I fully expect an Idzik-led Jets to do exactly what you demand, trade up (even if they don't really have to), to get a "franchise QB" who, the odds say, is not even 50/50 of being one.

 

Put it another way if the Jets pass on the QB in 2015 draft, they aren't getting any better.

Sure they are, playing ANY Veteran JAG QB over Geno Smith is an instant upgrade at QB, and probably accounts for 2-3 extra wins vs. playing Geno Smith alone.

They need to at least try. a 3-13 team planning for the future is dumb. That team needs a lightning strike.

"Hope for a lightning strike" is, I'm sorry, a horrible way to run a franchise, especially a bad franchise.

[CM28]

I don't know sh*t about talent evaluation. Track record:

Was madly in love with RG3 and M. Lee last two drafts. Way better than Luck and Watkins, at least I thought.

So with that said. My choice at QB in the draft is Conner Cook. Third round?

[patman]

here's a prediction for you Warfish:

 

none of those things will happen 

 

by the time the draft rolls around, Winston will have been scrubbed clean by the PR machine. 

 

by May all people will hear about is how he was all ACC honor roll in 2013-14 school year and how he won the Heisman. 

 

He will have been "cam Newton'ed" and people will say things like "he's just a kid, if there were cameras around when I was a kid, derp derp derp" 

 

The NFL only cares about crime, if it's on video (rice) or photo (AP). If it's allegations they sweep it under the rug like Big Ben. It's all about the product. 

 

Honestly what worries the most about Winston isn't his thug turd nature. It's the loathsome tradition of FSU QBs in the league. You have to go all the way back to Brad Johnson, a 9th rd pick in 1992 to find a decent one. They don't even have a 9th round anymore. 

 

but still, i'd rather watch that s--tshow and have even a microscopic chance of being good, as opposed to watching Geno Smith and knowing it's hopeless.

 

How is a PR machine going to clear up being sued for sexual assult? FL state will dissosciate them selves from Winston so fast after that bowl game, For appearance sake they will suspend him even after he drops out!  Clune is going to have Winston's and FLA state admin in the newspapers for the next two years. This is a guy who sued harvard, Wake, Colorodo, Stanford and Kobe Bryant. Was Kobe able to keep his name out of the papers?

[Warfish]

You know what, maybe I'm being unfair Bit.

Walk me through your "Jets Offseason 2015" please.

Presume Rex is fired. Presume we draft at #6 position.

Who is the coach and how does Winston suit that coach? How are we acquiring Winston, who else are we acquiring (does Winston start day 1? If not, who is playing QB?), how are we fixing the CB/DB spots, who is playing WR, O-Line, etc.

Help me understand how we're going to make this work, and how (as you see it) a guy with Winston's issues will turn it all around and be a choir-boy once he's in the small town of New York City.

[vincenzo69]

Brian Hoyer - Pass. He blows. Giving him a big contract cements us in last place in AFCE next 5 years.

Jake Locker - ROFl, LMFAO

Vick - hey it was stupid signing last summer les do it again!

[vincenzo69]

You know what, maybe I'm being unfair Bit.Walk me through your "Jets Offseason 2015" please.Presume Rex is fired. Presume we draft at #6 position.Who is the coach and how does Winston suit that coach? How are we acquiring Winston, who else are we acquiring (does Winston start day 1? If not, who is playing QB?), how are we fixing the CB/DB spots, who is playing WR, O-Line, etc.Help me understand how we're going to make this work, and how (as you see it) a guy with Winston's issues will turn it all around and be a choir-boy once he's in the small town of New York City.

Who said Winston has to be a choir boy? What's even the horrible thing Jameis Winston has even done? He was not charged for rape. The ref he moved out of the way was standing behind the center even the ref realized he was in the wrong and didn't even throw a flag. He accepted money for autographs? Do you know how many of these players get paid in college. It's like steroids in baseball - except more prevalents.

Jameis Winston - thug turd turd thug thug turd turd thug thug thug tird turd mean greedy guy horny guy thug tyrd turd thug thug thug thug. Give him lethal injection

[sourceworx]

I don't know sh*t about talent evaluation. Track record:

Was madly in love with RG3 and M. Lee last two drafts. Way better than Luck and Watkins, at least I thought.

So with that said. My choice at QB in the draft is Conner Cook. Third round?

Cook has stayed publicly that he will stay in school unless he gets a first round grade.

I'll be honest, I'm really not crazy about the top two QBs in this draft, based on my limited exposure to them.

I like Brett Hundley and Bryce Petty as mid round developmental prospects.

[JustInFudge]

I see lots of colored people becoming head coaches in the NFL; do you think they're smart enough to handle a white man's job, or are you not sold on them, too?

 

Wait, what?

 

I dont even...

[Warfish]

Give him lethal injection

Hyperbole is not your friend.

His wiki page does a nice summary of issues of concern behaviorally:

 

Controversies

Sexual assault allegation

On November 14, 2013, the State Attorney of the Second Judicial Circuit announced they were opening an investigation into a sexual assault allegation involving Winston that was originally filed with the Tallahassee Police Department (TPD) on December 7, 2012.[18] The complaint was originally investigated by the police and classified as open/inactive in February 2013 with no charges being filed.[19][20] The police report, containing the victim's original statement, has been posted by the Tallahassee Police Department.[21] Tallahassee police stated that the complaint was made inactive "when the victim in the case broke off contact with TPD, and her attorney indicated she did not want to move forward at that time" and then re-examined after media requests for information started coming in early November.[22] On December 5, 2013, State Attorney Willie Meggs announced the completion of the investigation and that no charges would be filed against anyone in this case. Meggs stated that "As prosecutors, we only bring charges for cases where the evidence will result in a likely conviction at trial. In this case, the evidence does not show that."[23] Allegations of improper police conduct have been made by both parties, with the victim claiming to have been pressured into dropping her claim and Winston's attorney alleging inappropriate leaks to the media. Florida State's policy is that athletes charged with a felony cannot play until their case is resolved, but Winston continued to play throughout the investigation because he was never charged.[24]

On April 16, 2014, The New York Times reported irregularities in the rape investigation involving Winston. Though a medical examination of the victim revealed injuries consistent with sexual trauma – including bruises and semen – and the victim would later identify Winston by name as her attacker, Tallahassee police reportedly never obtained a DNA sample from Winston, never interviewed him, nor attempted to obtain video of the alleged assault taken by Seminoles teammate Chris Casher. The investigation was conducted by Officer Scott Angulo, who, the Times '​ article notes, did private security work for the Seminole Boosters, the primary financier of Florida State athletics.[25]

Gun complaint

In 2012, Winston and another FSU player were held by campus police for allegedly bringing a BB gun on campus and firing at squirrels. Officers handcuffed Winston but he was later released when it was noticed he was not on campus and the gun was just a BB gun. No charges were filed against Winston in this incident.[26]

Shoplifting incidents

In July 2013, a Burger King employee called police in July to complain that Winston was stealing soda. According to the police report, Winston came in to the restaurant with three men, but did not order any food. An employee, who recognized him, first saw him using ketchup cups to take some soda. He asked for a water cup after she told him to stop, but he said he would use it for soda and filled it repeatedly with soda over her objections, the report said.[27] On April 29, 2014, Winston was issued an adult civil citation for shoplifting crab legs from a Tallahassee Publix store.[28] Winston was ordered to undergo 20 hours of community service and was suspended from any college baseball activity until he completed his community service.

Vulgar comments

On September 17, 2014, Winston was suspended for the first half of Florida State's upcoming game against Clemson. The Guardian reported that, "several students tweeted," that Winston shouted, "**** her right in the pussy," an Internet meme,[29] while standing atop a table in Florida State University's Student Union.[30] Two days later, university president Garnett S. Stokes and athletic director Stan Wilcox, citing results of an "ongoing investigation", announced that Winston would be suspended for the whole game.[31]

And yes, the Autographs issue:

 

Report: Jameis Winston investigated by Florida State for autographs

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/10/13/florida-state-quarterback-jameis-winston-autographs-investigation/17215489/

None of which means he cannot be a good QB, of course. But they are a reflection of immaturity almost across the board, and immaturity combined with being in New York with a fresh shiny 5 million dollars in your pocket is always a concern IMO.

[CM28]

Cook has stayed publicly that he will stay in school unless he gets a first round grade.

I'll be honest, I'm really not crazy about the top two QBs in this draft, based on my limited exposure to them.

I like Brett Hundley and Bryce Petty as mid round developmental prospects.

Well if that's the case he can stay in school. I'm Starting to hope that both he and mariota do just that since we are out of the race.

I'm going to check them out. BH and BP.

So OL or WR maybe in first?

[sourceworx]

Who said Winston has to be a choir boy? What's even the horrible thing Jameis Winston has even done? He was not charged for rape. The ref he moved out of the way was standing behind the center even the ref realized he was in the wrong and didn't even throw a flag. He accepted money for autographs? Do you know how many of these players get paid in college. It's like steroids in baseball - except more prevalents.

Jameis Winston - thug turd turd thug thug turd turd thug thug thug tird turd mean greedy guy horny guy thug tyrd turd thug thug thug thug. Give him lethal injection

Yeah I think the uproar over his transgressions is a bit overblown.

My concern with Winston is he throws off balance a lot, which leads to issues with accuracy. That could be fixed with time. But the problem is as a top 5 pick, there will be pressure to play him right away.

As a 2nd rounder I'd love him. The talent is there. He just needs some work.

[vincenzo69]

I'd try to work a trade with the Giants for Ryan Nassib. Maybe offer Brick to them (they need O-Linemen badly).

 

Then use our 1st for the top OT in the draft, and take Brett Hundley, Bryce Petty, or Sean Mannion later.

The only backup out there worth trading for is glennon

[SenorGato]

One man....Jeff Fahey

[bitonti]

You know what, maybe I'm being unfair Bit.

Walk me through your "Jets Offseason 2015" please.

Presume Rex is fired. Presume we draft at #6 position.

 

Here's my plan 

 

round 1 draft best available QB 

 

Even if the 2 big guys are gone and the third is a so called "reach" 

 

rinse and repeat. Keep drafting a QB high until you find "the one" High doesn't necessarily mean rd 1 it can also mean rd 2 or 3. BUt for next year I'll "reach" In rd 1 cause the need is that dire. Another lineman doesn't do squat for this team. 

 

What I want is a legit QB competition, one where either player could actually win (not a stacked competition as we've had since Idzik arrived) 

 

But what i don't want to see happen is take a QB in rd 2 and push all in with him for 2 seasons (maybe 3). 

[New York Mick]

Is farve available

[sourceworx]

The only backup out there worth trading for is glennon

I wouldnt mind that. He was my favorite QB in the 2013 draft. Nassib was 2nd.

[vincenzo69]

Yeah I think the uproar over his transgressions is a bit overblown.

My concern with Winston is he throws off balance a lot, which leads to issues with accuracy. That could be fixed with time. But the problem is as a top 5 pick, there will be pressure to play him right away.

As a 2nd rounder I'd love him. The talent is there. He just needs some work.

You cannot win in the nfl without a qb. Look at Cleveland and Arizona this year it finally caught up with them. Draft Winston and trade a late rd pick for Glennon and have a qb competition.

[Jack Straw]

Wait, what?

 

I dont even...

Sarcasm referring to a previous poster stating they're not "buying into the hype of the black QB" (paraphrasing). 

[jgb]

You cannot win in the nfl without a qb. Look at Cleveland and Arizona this year it finally caught up with them. Draft Winston and trade a late rd pick for Glennon and have a qb competition.

 

while i'm worried about winston, this sounds like a sensible plan. prefer mariota but what do i know... well more than idzik, but who here doesn't?

[vincenzo69]

here's a prediction for you Warfish:

 

none of those things will happen 

 

by the time the draft rolls around, Winston will have been scrubbed clean by the PR machine. 

 

by May all people will hear about is how he was all ACC honor roll in 2013-14 school year and how he won the Heisman. 

 

He will have been "cam Newton'ed" and people will say things like "he's just a kid, if there were cameras around when I was a kid, derp derp derp" 

 

The NFL only cares about crime, if it's on video (rice) or photo (AP). If it's allegations they sweep it under the rug like Big Ben. It's all about the product. 

 

Honestly what worries the most about Winston isn't his thug turd nature. It's the loathsome tradition of FSU QBs in the league. You have to go all the way back to Brad Johnson, a 9th rd pick in 1992 to find a decent one. They don't even have a 9th round anymore. 

 

but still, i'd rather watch that s--tshow and have even a microscopic chance of being good, as opposed to watching Geno Smith and knowing it's hopeless.

I hope the hype about Winston being the worst human being in the world continues and he falls to us at 6. Compared to the ass clowns like Peterson, Rice or Vick the guy is a saint.

[JustInFudge]

Sarcasm referring to a previous poster stating they're not "buying into the hype of the black QB" (paraphrasing). 

 

Phew.  I was all like, oh no he didnt.

[vincenzo69]

while i'm worried about winston, this sounds like a sensible plan. prefer mariota but what do i know... well more than idzik, but who here doesn't?

Idzik knows all. He's been plunking you guys. Calvin Pryor is actually the next Ed Reed and Jalen Saunders is going to come back from the saints with all that saints knowledge and transfer it to Mike Vick and make him better than drew brees

[Warfish]

Sarcasm referring to a previous poster stating they're not "buying into the hype of the black QB" (paraphrasing).

Incorrectly paraphrasing, leaving out the primary and only concern, a "running" QB who is more runner than pocket passer.

I get it Jack Straw (From Witchita), you're trying to shoot your buddy Fish down, lay for me a shallow grave, and lay my posting down.....

But sadly, your attempt to paint me a racist is simply as misguided as it is irrelevant.

I describe them broadly as "black running QB's" because, frankly, recent history shows none of them have been whiteys cause whitey's at QB generally can't run that well, and certainly can't sell themselves as "running QB's".

Has nothing to do with race, has to do with skills. I don't want a runner, I want a cannon arm'ed pocket passer. I want Peyton Manning (or as close as we can get), not RGIII (or as close to him as is available).

Passing first, passing second, passing third, and running skill somewhere around 50th in priority.

Geno, as I see it, was sold and acts as a "running QB" more than a passer. Lets not do that again.

[JustInFudge]

Incorrectly paraphrasing, leaving out the primary and only concern, a "running" QB who is more runner than pocket passer.

I get it Jack Straw (From Witchita), you're trying to shoot your buddy Fish down, lay for me a shallow grave, and lay my posting down.....

But sadly, your attempt to paint me a racist is simply as misguided as it is irrelevant.

I describe them broadly as "black running QB's" because, frankly, recent history shows none of them have been whiteys cause whitey's at QB generally can't run that well, and certainly can't sell themselves as "running QB's".

Has nothing to do with race, has to do with skills. I don't want a runner, I want a cannon arm'ed pocket passer. I want Peyton Manning (or as close as we can get), not RGIII (or as close to him as is available).

Passing first, passing second, passing third, and running skill somewhere around 50th in priority.

Geno, as I see it, was sold and acts as a "running QB" more than a passer. Lets not do that again.

 

Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel are all like, what?

[SickJetFan]

I think Cook will declare

 

Do the Reach on Cook - overdraft him at 6

Go hard for Bradford

[RutgersJetFan]

Totes worth that win yesterday. #learninghowtowin

[faba]

Lets keep race of a player out of discussion please

[Warfish]

Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel are all like, what?

Busts.

Thanks for proving my point, whilst missing the forest for the trees JiF.

Say no to running QB's.

[The Crusher]

Busts.

Thanks for proving my point, whilst missing the forest for the trees JiF.

Say no to running QB's.

Pretty sure Aaron Rodgers is third in QB rushing yards.  Go figure.