Why It's Not So Bad...

[SoFlaJets]

(Pre post note: I did some research on this post that didn't get noticed yesterday and I think it makes a lot of sense, has useful information and I would like to see it discussed)

 

That the Jets probably won't have a shot at the QB kid from Oregon. Consider what happened to this team under Herm Edwards and now with Rex Ryan, both idiots totally ignored the OL and look at where their teams ended up by the time they got fired. It's uncanny how similar their drafts have gone and how the pitiful their respective teams ended up BECAUSE of their disregard and ignorance of the importance of a strong Offensive Line.

 

Herm Edwards had 35 draft picks drafted 6 OLmen in his tenure and none before the 3rd round-they were afterthoughts 

2001 Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd and Tupe Peko in the 7th Rd guard

2002 Jonathan Goodwin in the 5th

2003 Dave Yovanovits in the 7th

2004 Marko in the 6th and Adrian Jones in the 4th

2005 --------

 

Rex Ryan had 40 draft picks and has picked 6 OLmen Vlad being the highest in the 2nd Rd

2009-----

2010 Vlad Ducasse in the 2nd Rd

2011 -------

2012 Robt Griffin in the 6th

2013 Brian Winters in the 3rd, Oday Obushi in the 5th and William Campbell in the 6th

2014 Dakota Dozier in the 4th

 

So Rex has been even worse in drafting quality OLmen than Edwards and the record shows

 

We need to build from the inside out which is my new catch phrase.

[FloridaJetsFan]

(Pre post note: I did some research on this post that didn't get noticed yesterday and I think it makes a lot of sense, has useful information and I would like to see it discussed)

 

That the Jets probably won't have a shot at the QB kid from Oregon. Consider what happened to this team under Herm Edwards and now with Rex Ryan, both idiots totally ignored the OL and look at where their teams ended up by the time they got fired. It's uncanny how similar their drafts have gone and how the pitiful their respective teams ended up BECAUSE of their disregard and ignorance of the importance of a strong Offensive Line.

 

Herm Edwards had 35 draft picks drafted 6 OLmen in his tenure and none before the 3rd round-they were afterthoughts 

2001 Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd and Tupe Peko in the 7th Rd guard

2002 Jonathan Goodwin in the 5th

2003 Dave Yovanovits in the 7th

2004 Marko in the 6th and Adrian Jones in the 4th

2005 --------

 

Rex Ryan had 40 draft picks and has picked 6 OLmen Vlad being the highest in the 2nd Rd

2009-----

2010 Vlad Ducasse in the 2nd Rd

2011 -------

2012 Robt Griffin in the 6th

2013 Brian Winters in the 3rd, Oday Obushi in the 5th and William Campbell in the 6th

2014 Dakota Dozier in the 4th

 

So Rex has been even worse in drafting quality OLmen than Edwards and the record shows

 

We need to build from the inside out which is my new catch phrase.

Noted, but show me the good teams and where they've drafted OLine in a similar 5 year span and let's see the direct correlation.

[Jetster]

Jets have to fix this Oline!

Colon...your fired

Bruno... Your fired

Dbrick....your gonna have competition

1- sign Iupati (solves 1 guard spot for 7 years)

2- draft a stud RT high in the 2015 draft (2nd round) usually get great value in that 35-40 range if you don't draft division II players with wonderlics of 5 & have a hard time with the English language.

Lot of talk about how bad Colon is well we found out why Seattle had no interest in resigning Bruno..he stinks!

[afosomf]

It's so bad that it cannot be worse!!!!

[PatsFanTX]

Noted, but show me the good teams and where they've drafted OLine in a similar 5 year span and let's see the direct correlation.

Look at the Cowboys draft picks over the last 3 years.

They have the best OLine in the NFL.

[munchmemory]

Noted, but show me the good teams and where they've drafted OLine in a similar 5 year span and let's see the direct correlation.

Why ask him to do your work?  Go do the research if you want to contrast the point.

[NYJ37/12]

Spot on! Parcells always said the same, you build a team from the inside of the line and work your way back.

[JustInFudge]

You forgot Matt Slausen in 2009, who is having a nice career.

[Jetsfan80]

It's a sunny day out here in southeastern North Carolina.  So that's something.

[bitonti]

The Jets are 2nd in the league in rushing, that's not usually a sign of an OL that requires rebuild. 

 

and before you talk to me about the pass protection, note that thru the first 7 games, Geno Smith had 4 seconds to throw, 2nd in the NFL behind Locker. He was also tops in "time to scramble" about 6 seconds. 

 

http://www.buccaneers.com/news/article-smith/Football-Geekery-Quicker-Passes-Needed/81de1b9e-dd24-4581-80b2-1e58c53a5680

 

The Jets also boast the best center in the game (according to PFF).

 

The problem isn't the OL. It's the QB (and it always has been)

[RutgersJetFan]

OL has actually been pretty decent this year. I know that doesn't seem to be the case but all the reputable sites that track this stuff have us at not so bad. The sacks have been on the higher side but that's way more Geno's fault than theirs. Aboushi replacing Winters seems to have been a great move, which is more troublesome than hopeful because it makes one wonder why he wasn't in there sooner.

[FidelioJet]

The o line is not the problem with this team...Sure it can always be better - but there are SOOOO many more needs.

[#27TheDominator]

One reason it is not so bad is that this team has traditionally ridden the new coach bounce to the playoffs.  Parcells and Groh didn't make the playoffs, but each went 9-7 coming off 1-15 and 8-8 seasons.  Herm, Mangini and Ryan all made the playoffs their first season and Mangini was coming off 4-12.

[ylekram]

 

(Pre post note: I did some research on this post that didn't get noticed yesterday and I think it makes a lot of sense, has useful information and I would like to see it discussed)

 

That the Jets probably won't have a shot at the QB kid from Oregon. Consider what happened to this team under Herm Edwards and now with Rex Ryan, both idiots totally ignored the OL and look at where their teams ended up by the time they got fired. It's uncanny how similar their drafts have gone and how the pitiful their respective teams ended up BECAUSE of their disregard and ignorance of the importance of a strong Offensive Line.

 

Herm Edwards had 35 draft picks drafted 6 OLmen in his tenure and none before the 3rd round-they were afterthoughts 

2001 Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd and Tupe Peko in the 7th Rd guard

2002 Jonathan Goodwin in the 5th

2003 Dave Yovanovits in the 7th

2004 Marko in the 6th and Adrian Jones in the 4th

2005 --------

 

Rex Ryan had 40 draft picks and has picked 6 OLmen Vlad being the highest in the 2nd Rd

2009-----

2010 Vlad Ducasse in the 2nd Rd

2011 -------

2012 Robt Griffin in the 6th

2013 Brian Winters in the 3rd, Oday Obushi in the 5th and William Campbell in the 6th

2014 Dakota Dozier in the 4th

 

So Rex has been even worse in drafting quality OLmen than Edwards and the record shows

 

We need to build from the inside out which is my new catch phrase.

 

good qb's can get away with average olines. since the jets havnt had a good qb in I don't know how long, the jets need to get back to having a dominate oline. you just cant have an average or below average qb and oline. it just doesn't work. and since it is easier to obtain a dominate oline than it is a good qb, I totally agree with you, that's what the jets need to do. a dominate oline can make a sh*tty qb look average and an average qb look good. just look no further than new England. the tom brady legacy was created with max protection. pressure brady and he is not the same qb. give him time and he will complete passes all day long.

 football games are still won and lost in the trenches. the right side of the jets oline is horrible in pass protection.it may be time to switch brick to the right side and acquire a quality young left tackle, and replace colon with a stud free agent right guard. with any luck oboushi or dozier can lock down the left guard position

[jgb]

 

(Pre post note: I did some research on this post that didn't get noticed yesterday and I think it makes a lot of sense, has useful information and I would like to see it discussed)

 

That the Jets probably won't have a shot at the QB kid from Oregon. Consider what happened to this team under Herm Edwards and now with Rex Ryan, both idiots totally ignored the OL and look at where their teams ended up by the time they got fired. It's uncanny how similar their drafts have gone and how the pitiful their respective teams ended up BECAUSE of their disregard and ignorance of the importance of a strong Offensive Line.

 

Herm Edwards had 35 draft picks drafted 6 OLmen in his tenure and none before the 3rd round-they were afterthoughts 

2001 Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd and Tupe Peko in the 7th Rd guard

2002 Jonathan Goodwin in the 5th

2003 Dave Yovanovits in the 7th

2004 Marko in the 6th and Adrian Jones in the 4th

2005 --------

 

Rex Ryan had 40 draft picks and has picked 6 OLmen Vlad being the highest in the 2nd Rd

2009-----

2010 Vlad Ducasse in the 2nd Rd

2011 -------

2012 Robt Griffin in the 6th

2013 Brian Winters in the 3rd, Oday Obushi in the 5th and William Campbell in the 6th

2014 Dakota Dozier in the 4th

 

So Rex has been even worse in drafting quality OLmen than Edwards and the record shows

 

We need to build from the inside out which is my new catch phrase.

 

 

good post--both herm and rex began their tenure with dominant OLines and ended with dogsheet.

[Savage69]

One reason it is not so bad is that this team has traditionally ridden the new coach bounce to the playoffs.  Parcells and Groh didn't make the playoffs, but each went 9-7 coming off 1-15 and 8-8 seasons.  Herm, Mangini and Ryan all made the playoffs their first season and Mangini was coming off 4-12.

2005 was 4-12 because both Chad and Fiedler were hurt within seconds of each other and Bollinger was the QB for 11 games..

[#27TheDominator]

2005 was 4-12 because both Chad and Fiedler were hurt within seconds of each other and Bollinger was the QB for 11 games..

 

 

...and Mawae.  Big deal.  As now, the problem was at QB and they had a high pick.  That year the choices were a surgically reconstructed Chad, Patrick Ramsey and Kellen Clemens.  You don't think we can top that?  

[PatsFanTX]

2005 was 4-12 because both Chad and Fiedler were hurt within seconds of each other and Bollinger was the QB for 11 games..

Why can't the Jets still win when their QB goes down?

When Brady went down, Pats still finished 11-5 with a QB who last started a game in high school.

[Savage69]

...and Mawae.  Big deal.  As now, the problem was at QB and they had a high pick.  That year the choices were a surgically reconstructed Chad, Patrick Ramsey and Kellen Clemens.  You don't think we can top that?  

We can yes but not if Idzik is picking..

[Savage69]

Why can't the Jets still win when their QB goes down?

When Brady went down, Pats still finished 11-5 with a QB who last started a game in high school.

Who was on the Pats for 4 years before that start think that makes a difference Tex??LOL

[BroadwayJoe12]

Because we're not the bears and locked into Cutler and his albatross of an obscene contract for almost a decade. At least there's that.

[PatsFanTX]

Who was on the Pats for 4 years before that start think that makes a difference Tex??LOL

Holding a clipboard is the reason Cassel was successful???????????

[Savage69]

Holding a clipboard is the reason Cassel was successful???????????

Learning behind the Great Tom Brady and BB would make a Monkey a NFL QB would it not??

[southparkcpa]

Spot on! Parcells always said the same, you build a team from the inside of the line and work your way back.

Agreed...mangini, for all his knocks knew this.  Brick and Mangold were on him.

[FloridaJetsFan]

Why ask him to do your work?  Go do the research if you want to contrast the point.

 

Huh? So what I think you're saying is anyone that rolls out a theory on the internet should be accepted at face value and only challenged if you delve into the stats to determine if it's accurate. Otherwise, just accept everything people state here. Interesting, but no.

[Warfish]

The Jets are 2nd in the league in rushing, that's not usually a sign of an OL that requires rebuild. 

 

and before you talk to me about the pass protection, note that thru the first 7 games, Geno Smith had 4 seconds to throw, 2nd in the NFL behind Locker. He was also tops in "time to scramble" about 6 seconds. 

 

http://www.buccaneers.com/news/article-smith/Football-Geekery-Quicker-Passes-Needed/81de1b9e-dd24-4581-80b2-1e58c53a5680

 

The Jets also boast the best center in the game (according to PFF).

 

The problem isn't the OL. It's the QB (and it always has been)

 

I agree with Bit.

 

I'm a strong believer in the "Winning Begins in the Trenches" theory, always have been.

 

But I think the line is taking a hit for the bad play and decisions of the horrific, worst-in-NFL, QB they're protecting.

 

Yes, the line could use some upgrades, Colon clearly being the weak link.  And Brick does occasionally whiff hard, usually when the TE helping him (often Cumberland) is horribad, to be fair.

 

But given where we stand today at QB, WR, CB and Safety, it's hard to prioritize O-line above those other spots.

 

We are the worst team in the NFL at QB.

 

We are amongst the worst teams at WR (only Decker is half salvageable, Kerley and lolHarvin, no).

 

And we're hands down the worst secondary in the NFL IMO.

 

Sorry, but this year, O-line can get a pick, but not till the 4th or 5th round, after we get a QB, WR and CB, minimum.

[Savage69]

 

 

Sorry, but this year, O-line can get a pick, but not till the 4th or 5th round, after we get a QB, WR and CB, minimum.

Spot on Brother Fish..

[#27TheDominator]

I agree with Bit.

 

I'm a strong believer in the "Winning Begins in the Trenches" theory, always have been.

 

But I think the line is taking a hit for the bad play and decisions of the horrific, worst-in-NFL, QB they're protecting.

 

Yes, the line could use some upgrades, Colon clearly being the weak link.  And Brick does occasionally whiff hard, usually when the TE helping him (often Cumberland) is horribad, to be fair.

 

But given where we stand today at QB, WR, CB and Safety, it's hard to prioritize O-line above those other spots.

 

We are the worst team in the NFL at QB.

 

We are amongst the worst teams at WR (only Decker is half salvageable, Kerley and lolHarvin, no).

 

And we're hands down the worst secondary in the NFL IMO.

 

Sorry, but this year, O-line can get a pick, but not till the 4th or 5th round, after we get a QB, WR and CB, minimum.

 

 

Spot on Brother Fish..

 

I don't feel like re-reading the whole damn thread, but you guys have given up on BAP?  We are picking at the top of the draft.  I am not reaching for the 3rd QB or 2nd WR because #need.  Need is what free agency is for.  IMO that was Idzik's big failing.  

 

*As far as need goes, I agree those items are all higher up than O line.  Particularly if they let Harvin walk.  I actually lean towards keeping him. 

[slats]

2005 was 4-12 because both Chad and Fiedler were hurt within seconds of each other and Bollinger was the QB for 11 games..

 

Brooks Bollinger was a better QB, statistically, than Sanchez and Geno have been. 

[Warfish]

I don't feel like re-reading the whole damn thread, but you guys have given up on BAP?  We are picking at the top of the draft.  I am not reaching for the 3rd QB or 2nd WR because #need.  Need is what free agency is for.  IMO that was Idzik's big failing.  

 

*As far as need goes, I agree those items are all higher up than O line.  Particularly if they let Harvin walk.  I actually lean towards keeping him.

 

I cannot give up on a theory I never supported and never believed in.

 

BAP, in my view, is as foolish a way to draft as a team, especially a bad team, could choose. No one does BAP in FA, for much the same reasons they shouldn't do it in the draft, Pure BAP is a luxury, something only elite teams already successful can afford to enjoy.

 

For example, if BAP at #6 turns out to be a D-Tackle, should we take the D-tackle? Or a TE, do we take a TE?

 

**** no.

 

BAP @ Need is the only way to draft, unless you're literally amongst the best team in the NFL with few (if any) actual serious "needs".

The player in question would have to be so spectacularly game changing to warrant selecting a player NOT at a position of need ahead of the BAP of Need. even then, it's a very risky way of drafting IMO.

Happily, we have a ton of serious needs: QB, WR, CB first amongst them, and I assure you, we can find a BAP/Need at one of those spots at #6 that wouldn't be a reach.

OLB, O-Line, TE and RB are all also spots I'd say are "moderate needs", spots that warrant mid-round picks, or maybe (if BAP is really clear cut) a bit higher, buit not 1st/2nd rounds. Current roster spots could be improved with an infusion of younger talent at these spots, but they're not vital, and selecting them simply because of BAP won't help your team get materially better.

We're not the Seahawks, Patriots or even the Steelers, with a legacy of success and the comfort of being able to draft BAP.

BAP/Need or you're doing it wrong.

[#27TheDominator]

 

I cannot give up on a theory I never supported and never believed in.

 

BAP, in my view, is as foolish a way to draft as a team, especially a bad team, could choose. No one does BAP in FA, for much the same reasons they shouldn't do it in the draft, Pure BAP is a luxury, something only elite teams already successful can afford to enjoy.

 

For example, if BAP at #6 turns out to be a D-Tackle, should we take the D-tackle? Or a TE, do we take a TE?

 

**** no.

 

BAP @ Need is the only way to draft, unless you're literally amongst the best team in the NFL with few (if any) actual serious "needs".

The player in question would have to be so spectacularly game changing to warrant selecting a player NOT at a position of need ahead of the BAP of Need. even then, it's a very risky way of drafting IMO.

Happily, we have a ton of serious needs: QB, WR, CB first amongst them, and I assure you, we can find a BAP/Need at one of those spots at #6 that wouldn't be a reach.

OLB, O-Line, TE and RB are all also spots I'd say are "moderate needs", as in current roster spots could be improved with an infusion of younger talent.

We're not the Seahawks, Patriots or even the Steelers, with a legacy of success and the comfort of being able to draft BAP.

BAP/Need or you're doing it wrong.

 

I guess everybody defines it a bit different.  IMO, need has a bearing on the formula, but more important is the value of the position - QB and pass rush are premium positions.  IMO TE and S are lower down the totem pole, though S certainly has seen a bit of an uptick.  Nobody does BAP in free agency because in free agency you have a choice.  With the draft, unless you can trade down, you are stuck and if you take a lesser player you are wasting an asset IMO.  IMO the key to proper personnel is shoring up all holes in free agency.  You won't have a perfect roster, but your worst case should be considerably better than Dimitri Patterson starting at CB or David Nelson starting at WR.  

 

It is unfathomable that he didn't sign anybody that could supplant Nelson and Salas on the roster.  It would not have taken much money.  For Jeremy Kerley money the Jets could have had a real WR for the entire 2014 season. 

[peebag]

Don't care what you say - Giacomini and Colon are horrible - anyone with a pair of eyes can see it.  If those two aren't replaced next year, it doesn't matter who you have as QB, the O is going to be horrible.

[BroadwayJoe12]

I guess everybody defines it a bit different.  IMO, need has a bearing on the formula, but more important is the value of the position - QB and pass rush are premium positions.  IMO TE and S are lower down the totem pole, though S certainly has seen a bit of an uptick.  Nobody does BAP in free agency because in free agency you have a choice.  With the draft, unless you can trade down, you are stuck and if you take a lesser player you are wasting an asset IMO.  IMO the key to proper personnel is shoring up all holes in free agency.  You won't have a perfect roster, but your worst case should be considerably better than Dimitri Patterson starting at CB or David Nelson starting at WR.  

 

It is unfathomable that he didn't sign anybody that could supplant Nelson and Salas on the roster.  It would not have taken much money.  For Jeremy Kerley money the Jets could have had a real WR for the entire 2014 season. 

 

I think Idzik's biggest issue is that he simply didn't know Nelson, Salas and Patterson weren't good enough, I'm not sure he has the eye for it.  He could have asked Rex and the coaching staff if those players were good enough and of course they were going to say yes.  It's clearly all conjecture, but other than trusting his coaching staff and not himself, there's simply no way anyone with an understanding of the game feels good about heading into the season with Nelson/Hill/Salas as your top receivers outside of Decker and Dimitri Patterson and a rookie CB who hadn't played football in a year as your starting #2 CB.  

[BroadwayJoe12]

Don't care what you say - Giacomini and Colon are horrible - anyone with a pair of eyes can see it.  If those two aren't replaced next year, it doesn't matter who you have as QB, the O is going to be horrible.

 

 

Dozier was a scouting favorite to make the transition to OG after a year of seasoning and I wouldn't be surprised to see he and Aboushi playing alongside Mangold next year. But yea, Colon has to go and Winters should be a backup.

[#27TheDominator]

I think Idzik's biggest issue is that he simply didn't know Nelson, Salas and Patterson weren't good enough, I'm not sure he has the eye for it.  He could have asked Rex and the coaching staff if those players were good enough and of course they were going to say yes.  It's clearly all conjecture, but other than trusting his coaching staff and not himself, there's simply no way anyone with an understanding of the game feels good about heading into the season with Nelson/Hill/Salas as your top receivers outside of Decker and Dimitri Patterson and a rookie CB who hadn't played football in a year as your starting #2 CB.  

 

C'mon.  Nelson played almost the whole 2013 season.  It was obvious he was a garbage man that finds the soft spot in the zone.  He isn't getting open against coverage and we all saw him sit on routes and get undercut for picks numerous times.  The coaching staff and GM knew it.  They just tried to cheap out on Jacoby Ford (who never even got another look) and shanked the draft in historic fashion.  They didn't draft 3 WR thinking they were set.