FWIW Possible Hall Inductees

[PFSIKH]

Article (using another sites feedback) says Randy Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz, Biggio and Piazza are in.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2015/01/pedro_martinez_and_the_silly_sanctity_of_the_baseb.html

[Morrissey]

I have so much distain for many of the baseball writers it's hard for me to pay attention to this stuff. They are beyond hyproctical and inconsistent. Here's an example from the names above. Piazza gets in and not Bagwell? Both have small, dubious ties to steroids. Bagwell gets the shaft, but not his teammate Biggio?Can these old holier-than-thou old farts let the steroid era guys in already and get on with it.. Jesus, it's time to move on.

[CrazyCarl40]

If Smoltz gets in, Schilling should be right behind him.

[Morrissey]

If Smoltz gets in, Schilling should be right behind him.

then Mussina

[Morrissey]

From a HOF voter: "Pedro is certainly deserving of the Hall of Fame, but not in my eyes on the first ballot." Wow. http://t.co/c9qXxKy2hM

— Ben Badler (@BenBadler)

January 5, 2015

See what I mean... good grief

[CrazyCarl40]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmkBNPY405WAdEZOUWdybm1iYjBUODA3RnNtZUFIaXc&output=html

 

This is insanity. People should have to justify their voting.

[Scott Dierking]

See what I mean... good grief

Wait until Mariano does not get 100%. You guys are going to freak

[Scott Dierking]

If Smoltz gets in, Schilling should be right behind him.

Schilling? All he has is his post season numbers, but those are not enough. He never led the league in anything, other than strikeouts. He is Kevin Brown.

 

Mussina, same thing. 

 

Nice pitchers but not HOF material. 

[Morrissey]

Wait until Mariano does not get 100%. You guys are going to freak

No one should expect him to get 100%

[Morrissey]

Schilling? All he has is his post season numbers, but those are not enough. He never led the league in anything, other than strikeouts. He is Kevin Brown.

 

Mussina, same thing. 

 

Nice pitchers but not HOF material.

At least you're consistent

[Morrissey]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/01/05/baseball-hall-of-fame-election-steroid-era-barry-bonds-roger-clemens/21290463/

 

Nightengale: Hall of Fame PED hypocrisy must end

Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY Sports 3:13 p.m. EST January 5, 2015

It has been nearly three decades since the whispers and innuendo began of pervasive steroid use in every baseball clubhouse, and somehow, we continue to remain clueless this time of year.

We've had 113 current or former major league players suspended since 2005 for using performance-enhancing drugs.

There were 103 players who tested positive for steroid use in anonymous survey testing of major-league players in 2003.

And 89 major league players were publicly identified as using performance-enhancing drugs in the 409-page Mitchell Report released in 2007.

Here we are on the brink of baseball's Hall of Fame election, with the announcement of new inductees Tuesday, and we still don't get it.

What the last 30 years should have taught us, and the Biogenesis scandal reminded us, is that we have absolutely no idea who was clean, and who was dirty.

Yet we, the members of the Baseball Writers Association of America, somehow keep trying to make that judgment.

What we've accomplished is turning the Hall of Fame voting into a travesty.

Just 35% of us voted for Barry Bonds last year, far short of the required 75% necessary for induction. Yet, many more had no trouble supporting Mike Piazza (62% last year) or Jeff Bagwell (54%). Both admitted using the now-banned androstenedione, and their bodies and power also swelled to enormous proportions.

We don't vote for Roger Clemens, but accept at face value the accomplishments of other power pitchers in that era. 

Oh, and even though Clemens spent millions in court to prove to prove he didn't commit perjury when he says he didn't use steroids, it's OK to blatantly disregard the federal criminal justice system.

I can't wait until two years from now and watch writers snub Bonds and Clemens, but turn around and vote for catcher Pudge Rodriguez in his first appearance on the ballot. Yep, just pretend the 30 pounds he lost over the winter of 2004 was a magical weight-loss program, and not a coincidence it occurred at the exact time steroid testing with penalties was implemented.

It's become a farce.

There are 34 players on this year's BBWAA ballot. Just a handful were firmly linked to PED use via the the anonymous 2003 test, the Mitchell Report, federal court testimony or their own admitted use.

Yet 30 of the 34 played the prime of their careers in the heart of the steroid era. Even if the estimates of players using PEDs made by former MVP Jose Canseco (85%) and Cy Young winner Eric Gagne (80% of his Dodgers teammates) are well on the high side, we'd be fooling ourselves to think these Hall candidates are that much cleaner than the norm.

We act as if Bonds and Clemens tried to ruin our game and everyone else on the ballot was clean.

It's time for us to wake up and knock off this absurdity.

Look, it was the steroid era, and until drug testing was implemented in 2004, nobody really cared. Union leadership went too far to protect players' ability to juice, with some officials even offering advice to beat the test. Management quietly admired, and reaped the benefits from steroid guys' willingness to bulk up, hire personal trainers, spend hours in the gym and enhance their performance.

The only thing they were cheating were perhaps their own bodies, taking the risk of potential health problems later in life.

These same guys are now managers and coaches, scouts and team-employed announcers, widely accepted by baseball establishment.

Enough is enough.

I vote for the players who had Hall of Fame careers, regardless of their connections to steroids and performance-enhancing drugs.

I will always vote for them providing they never tested positive after baseball introduced penalties for positive tests.

The widespread cheating actually created a level playing field, harming only those like Fred McGriff and other Hall of Fame candidates whose numbers were dwarfed by those whose bodies and statistics grew at grotesque proportions.

If you're one of the privileged voters for the Hall of Fame, it's time to simply vote for the players who you believe were the best of their era.

It just happened to be the steroid era.

Come on, this isn't the Sistine Chapel. We've let murderers, racists, and abusers in the Hall of Fame.

If you wanted to kick out every Hall of Fame player who ever illegally used amphetamines, you'd be able to fit the remaining players in an airplane bathroom.

Check out the number of writers who adamantly won't vote for Bonds or Clemens, but will vote for Tim Raines, the same guy who admitted to cocaine use during his career, even snorting it during games.

Let me ask, did Bonds or Clemens ever once hurt his team?

If Bonds wasn't breaking Hank Aaron's home run record, and considered the greatest player in the game since Babe Ruth, we would have already moved on from his role in the BALCO scandal.

If Clemens wasn't winning 354 games and seven Cy Young awards people would have ignored trainer Brian McNamee.

Yet, we punish them by keeping them out of the Hall of Fame because of their links to steroids, despite no real drug testing until 2005.

Please, don't use that weak excuse you're punishing Bonds and Clemens, but refuse to do the same against anyone else because they were never formally charged or had their trainer testify in court.

We are reporters. We saw the bizarre muscles, the drastic weight gains, the back acne, the mood swings, and the freakish muscle tears.

We had players, friends, coaches, and trainers telling us about some of the biggest PED users in the game. Several players used to brag to everyone who listened how he was doing it right.

Steroid users have been - and will be - elected to the Hall of Fame. Yet we, the Baseball Writers Association of America voters, are picking and choosing who we want to protect.

We're supposed to forget everything we saw and heard, and act now like it didn't happen because we didn't see the syringe go into the body.

We have to stop making a mockery out of the ballot by pretending that we really know who was clean, who cheated, and what it means.

Sure, it's not easy these days to select only 10 players who you believe were Hall of Famers, but it's supposed to be difficult. There's no reason to sweat it. This will be the first time since 1954-55 that at least three players will be elected in back-to-back years. Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are locks; Craig Biggio and John Smoltz could make it a foursome. Considering that Ken Griffey Jr. and Trevor Hoffman will be on the ballot next year, it could turn into three consecutive years. The logjam will start to clear.

With apologies to Jeff Kent, Mike Mussina and Raines, all who will receive my votes in the future, here is my Hall of Fame ballot:

Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mike Piazza, Gary Sheffield and John Smoltz.

Go ahead, take a close look.

There are more players linked or suspected of PED use than those who haven't.

This is a ballot simply identifying who I believed were the best players of their era.

It was the steroid era.

It's time to deal with it.

[Morrissey]

Delete

[Scott Dierking]

No one should expect him to get 100%

You would be surprised.

 

I am not sure the writers will give him first ballot.

 

It is the process. Doesn't make it right, but it is the process.

[SenorGato]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12115949/jayson-stark-explains-2015-hall-fame-ballot

 

Starks beats up on the 10 player limit.

[PFSIKH]

No one should expect him to get 100%

 

And because Babe was a dick to a reporter(s), Mo gets hosed.

 

 

Schilling? All he has is his post season numbers, but those are not enough. He never led the league in anything, other than strikeouts. He is Kevin Brown.

 

Mussina, same thing. 

 

Nice pitchers but not HOF material. 

 

I have to disagree.

 

Schilling played for a horrible Phillies team.  One winning season during his tenure from 1992-1999.  He was 101-78 for a crappy team minus one year.

 

And go look at his numbers.  Yeah he led in Ks and Wins only a couple times each, but he was consistently in the top 10 of all the pitching stats.

 

Add that to his playoff credentials and he deserves enshrinement.

[Scott Dierking]

And because Babe was a dick to a reporter(s), Mo gets hosed.

 

 

 

I have to disagree.

 

Schilling played for a horrible Phillies team.  One winning season during his tenure from 1992-1999.  He was 101-78 for a crappy team minus one year.

 

And go look at his numbers.  Yeah he led in Ks and Wins only a couple times each, but he was consistently in the top 10 of all the pitching stats.

 

Add that to his playoff credentials and he deserves enshrinement.

wont happen.

[Bugg]

Schilling? All he has is his post season numbers, but those are not enough. He never led the league in anything, other than strikeouts. He is Kevin Brown.

 

Mussina, same thing. 

 

Nice pitchers but not HOF material. 

When you let Don Sutton and Burt Byleven in, how do you keep those guys out? Not knocking any of them, but those 2 stuck sround forever but weren't as good as Mussina, Schilling or Smoltz. Andy Pettitte is going to have a very similar argument.  Smoltz volunteered for the bullpen, which should enhance rather than hurt him. Guidry did the same thing a few times when Goose got hurt, and he gets no slack for that. 

 

Nightengale deserves credit for being open and honest about the whole mess instead of playing half assed detective. Ken Davidoff wrote something similar last week. We need more guys like that than these scolds who freak the eff out at the mention of PEDs. Probably a lot more used than we will ever really know in small degrees and large ones. Can't wait for them to all ditch their hairshirts when David Ortiz becomes eligible. 

 

Tim Raines deserves to be in too. He probably lost an MVP award when the collusion of the owners made him miss the first 6 weeks of a season. Happened to be at his first game back at Shea,  and he  was like a one man gang.Which is how the rest of that season went. 

[Scott Dierking]

When you let Don Sutton and Burt Byleven in, how do you keep those guys out? Not knocking any of them, but those 2 stuck sround forever but weren't as good as Mussina, Schilling or Smoltz. Andy Pettitte is going to have a very similar argument.  Smoltz volunteered for the bullpen, which should enhance rather than hurt him. Guidry did the same thing a few times when Goose got hurt, and he gets no slack for that. 

 

Nightengale deserves credit for being open and honest about the whole mess instead of playing half assed detective. Ken Davidoff wrote something similar last week. We need more guys like that than these scolds who freak the eff out at the mention of PEDs. Probably a lot more used than we will ever really know in small degrees and large ones. Can't wait for them to all ditch their hairshirts when David Ortiz becomes eligible. 

 

Tim Raines deserves to be in too. He probably lost an MVP award when the collusion of the owners made him miss the first 6 weeks of a season. Happened to be at his first game back at Shea,  and he  was like a one man gang.Which is how the rest of that season went. 

Don Sutton won 324 games. 324. That is far different than anything Smoltz, Pettitte, Nussina, etc accomplished. Blyleven was certainly a borderline call.

 

I remember Raines' first game back--For one measly regular season game in May, that was incredible. Raines will be downgraded because of the coke issue.

 

Oh-and Smoltz would get in on my ballot-Dominated as a starter, reliever and in Post Season

[CrazyCarl40]

Wins for a pitcher is such an overrated statistic.

[Scott Dierking]

When you let Don Sutton and Burt Byleven in, how do you keep those guys out? Not knocking any of them, but those 2 stuck sround forever but weren't as good as Mussina, Schilling or Smoltz. Andy Pettitte is going to have a very similar argument.  Smoltz volunteered for the bullpen, which should enhance rather than hurt him. Guidry did the same thing a few times when Goose got hurt, and he gets no slack for that. 

 

Nightengale deserves credit for being open and honest about the whole mess instead of playing half assed detective. Ken Davidoff wrote something similar last week. We need more guys like that than these scolds who freak the eff out at the mention of PEDs. Probably a lot more used than we will ever really know in small degrees and large ones. Can't wait for them to all ditch their hairshirts when David Ortiz becomes eligible. 

 

Tim Raines deserves to be in too. He probably lost an MVP award when the collusion of the owners made him miss the first 6 weeks of a season. Happened to be at his first game back at Shea,  and he  was like a one man gang.Which is how the rest of that season went. 

If you win 300 games, you are Hall worthy. I don't care. I am not sure we are ever going to see a pitcher win 300 games again.

 

Wins, as a measuring stick was much more prominent before the "specialist" era. Before that, Wins were a definite measuring stick. Different game today, granted.

[The Troll]

You would be surprised.

I am not sure the writers will give him first ballot.

It is the process. Doesn't make it right, but it is the process.

There is absolutely zero chance Rivera does not make it first ballot with at least 95% of the vote. You're just being contrarian.

[Morrissey]

If you win 300 games, you are Hall worthy. I don't care. I am not sure we are ever going to see a pitcher win 300 games again.

 

Wins, as a measuring stick was much more prominent before the "specialist" era. Before that, Wins were a definite measuring stick. Different game today, granted.

Mussina is 30 wins shy, yet you dismiss him

[Scott Dierking]

Mussina is 30 wins shy, yet you dismiss him

That is 10%. 

[Scott Dierking]

There is absolutely zero chance Rivera does not make it first ballot with at least 95% of the vote. You're just being contrarian.

I would think so as well and it would be deserved. I am just looking at the writers, and not knowing what they would do. They tend to treat relievers with disdain. 

[PFSIKH]

If you win 300 games, you are Hall worthy. I don't care. I am not sure we are ever going to see a pitcher win 300 games again.

 

Wins, as a measuring stick was much more prominent before the "specialist" era. Before that, Wins were a definite measuring stick. Different game today, granted.

 

So you support stat compilers? 

 

Using your argument above, how many times did Sutton lead in a pitching category?  Wins?  0.  ERA?  1.  SHOs?  1.  Ks? 0.  MVPs?  Once, he was 22nd. He won 20+ games once. 

 

He is similar to Yaz.  He had a real good to great 5-6 year stretch in his prime, but played a lot of years to achieve his numbers (300).  

 

Compared to Pedro, Randy, Smoltzie or even that POS Rog-ah, he deserves to wait, but Schil deserves to be in.

[Scott Dierking]

So you support stat compilers? 

 

Using your argument above, how many times did Sutton lead in a pitching category?  Wins?  0.  ERA?  1.  SHOs?  1.  Ks? 0.  MVPs?  Once, he was 22nd. He won 20+ games once. 

 

He is similar to Yaz.  He had a real good to great 5-6 year stretch in his prime, but played a lot of years to achieve his numbers (300).  

 

Compared to Pedro, Randy, Smoltzie or even that POS Rog-ah, he deserves to wait, but Schil deserves to be in.

There are certain thresholds-

300 wins 

500 HRs (Dave Kingman would have been an interesting case study)

 

that are automatic in my book. If you compiled in doing so, so be it, your longevity should be recognized. 

 

Of course, all of these are individual subjectively based. There is no blacjk and white formula, which makes discussion fun. Your HOF is different than mine, which is different than xxx.

[sg3]

Pedro, Smoltz, Biggio and Randy Johnson.

the final four for 2015

[Morrissey]

Griffey Jr and maybe Piazza and Hoffmann next season.

[Bugg]

Mussina is 30 wins shy, yet you dismiss him

And guys like Mussina and Pettitte probably could've hung around for another 5 or 6 so so years and get to 300, but they've made enough money that they don't want to do that. Sutton was a good pitcher, but he literally hung around forever; if Tommy John didn't have Tommy John surgery (ironic-like Lou Gerhig getting Lou Gerhig's disease, but i digress) might've reached 300 wins too. Odd to think but while Sutton was teammates with John on the Dodgers and Blyleven on the Angels John and Bly were the aces, not Sutton. Wins are a statistic that can tell you things; that Seaver got there given the awfulness of most of the Mets' teams he played on was really remarkable. But it really tells you about Sutton that he did in fact hang around forever with some good teams everywhere he went. I would rather have had John, or Guidry or Mussina or Pettitte or any number of other starters who won't probably ever get in.   

 

Would love to hear an explanation why Edgar Martinez is not an automatic.As a Yankees fan, they guy scared the heel out of you every at bat.  If he played before the DH, he would've played first. Denying him entry is really crap. 

[CrazyCarl40]

Griffey Jr and maybe Piazza and Hoffmann next season.

Hoffman doesn't get in first ballot. I think Schilling and Mussina get a big boost too.

[Morrissey]

Hoffman doesn't get in first ballot. I think Schilling and Mussina get a big boost too.

Most likely right on Hoffman. Schilling (39.2% this year) and Mussina (24.6%) both would need a much larger percentage of the vote to make it to the magic 75%. See both Bagwell (54.3%) and Raines (46.1% getting in before the two pitchers. Raines unfortunately only has next winter and the winter after that to get in before he's off the ballot.

[sg3]

Who should be in the HOF?

Rose, McGwire, Bonds, Hodges, Joe Jackson

Who clearly don't and should be booted?

Mazeroski, Ashburn, Evers, Ervin, about four SSs who batted about 260 and just about all the managers

[Morrissey]

Players who are already eligible who I would vote for are, including the 4 who got in today: Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, Craig Biggo, Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Jeff Kent, Fred McGriff, Larry Walker, Gary Sheffield, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa. As you can see, I'm done caring about steroids. 

 

Here are the future eligible lists. Without doing much research at all, the players I would vote for are bolded. 

 

2016 ELIGIBLES

GARRET ANDERSON
BRAD AUSMUS
LUIS CASTILLO
JIM EDMONDS
TROY GLAUS
KEN GRIFFEY JR.
MARK GRUDZIELANEK
JOSE GUILLEN
MIKE HAMPTON
TREVOR HOFFMAN
JASON KENDALL
MIKE LOWELL
RUSS ORTIZ
CHAN HO PARK
MIKE SWEENEY
BILLY WAGNER
 

 

2017 ELIGIBLES

PAT BURRELL
ORLANDO CABRERA
MIKE CAMERON
VLADIMIR GUERRERO
DERREK LEE
MAGGLIO ORDONEZ
JORGE POSADA
MANNY RAMIREZ
EDGAR RENTERIA
ARTHUR RHODES
IVAN RODRIGUEZ
JASON VARITEK
JAVIER VAZQUEZ
TIM WAKEFIELD

 

2018 ELIGIBLES

CHRIS CARPENTER
JOHNNY DAMON
BRIAN FUENTES
LIVAN HERNANDEZ
AUBREY HUFF
JASON ISRINGHAUSEN
ANDRUW JONES
CHIPPER JONES
CARLOS LEE
BRAD LIDGE
HIDEKI MATSUI
KEVIN MILLWOOD
JAMIE MOYER
SCOTT ROLEN
JIM THOME
OMAR VIZQUEL
KERRY WOOD

 

2019 ELIGIBLES

LANCE BERKMAN
ROY HALLADAY
TODD HELTON
DARREN OLIVER
ROY OSWALT
ANDY PETTITTE
MARIANO RIVERA
MICHAEL YOUNG

 

2020 ELIGIBLES

DEREK JETER
PAUL KONERKO
ALFONSO SORIANO
KEVIN YOUKILIS

[CrazyCarl40]

I think Schilling and Mussina will get in within the next few seasons because there is a dearth of good SP candidates

[PFSIKH]

There are certain thresholds-

300 wins 

500 HRs (Dave Kingman would have been an interesting case study)

 

that are automatic in my book. If you compiled in doing so, so be it, your longevity should be recognized. 

 

Of course, all of these are individual subjectively based. There is no blacjk and white formula, which makes discussion fun. Your HOF is different than mine, which is different than xxx.

 

Fair enough.