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Stephen Hill ran a 4.36 40


drdetroit

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Think about it while the people who know everything act like its a given what some players are going to be because they put up certain numbers wearing sneakers and under armour working out in climate controlled Lucas Oil stadium.

 

Do you think Stephen Hill is not fast?  This is ******* stupid.  The guy is a rocket.  Not the best at catching the ball or changing direction, but he has game speed  He got deep plenty.

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He also only caught 50 balls in 4 years. They fell in love with the size speed but had little game experience. But When you see a guy that had good production in College and then blows up in the combine, fans get excited

 

Fans get excited about all kinds of things.  The 40 doesn't tell you if a guy is a good football player, but it certainly tells you if he is fast.

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He also only caught 50 balls in 4 years. They fell in love with the size speed but had little game experience. But When you see a guy that had good production in College and then blows up in the combine, fans get excited

So what about a guy like cooper who has phenom production in college but only runs a 4.42 40?

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Fans get excited about all kinds of things. The 40 doesn't tell you if a guy is a good football player, but it certainly tells you if he is fast.

I disagree. Straight line speed and game speed are very different. I very rarely saw Hill get separation from anyone in the nfl.

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Hill's main issue was his feet, and was beyond raw when it came to route running.  His route running gave away his routes because he didn't know how to set them up, so the DB could guess where he was going more often than not, thus leading to less separation on his routes.  He used to routinely round off his cuts, so even though he was faster than the person covering him, he was taking the long way around.  I didn't think Hill had a problem with his hands, but he would almost always be in awkward positions when catching the ball.  He would jump for no reason.  Even a screen pass to him, he would shuffle his feet a couple of times before he got going, and get tackled right away.   However, he was plenty fast, he was pretty good on deep passes.  However, we don't have anyone else to occupy the safety, so the safety could always slant over to his side if he was on the field.   I think the best example was the game against the Steelers in Geno's rookie year, where he blew past the CB and the safety, but Geno overthrew him.  I believe there was a .gif of it, where you could see the speed.  

 

I think that's the reason why I really like Cooper in this draft.  He's excellent at route running, and sets up his routes extremely well.  If a DB can guess with some certainty at what route you are going to run with the set up you are attempting, then the physical advantage is taken away.  But if the DB is just reacting, then you get that extra window before the DB can recover.   

 

All in all, it's really not just the straight line speed, but obviously a combination of everything else.  Although I have to admit, I kinda liked the pick of Hill, I really thought he would develop in year 2, because the system was so restrictive at GT.  He seemed like someone who would want to learn, and had the tools, but he just never did.  Didn't help that teams tried to take his head off on any deep pass he caught either.  

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Think about it while the people who know everything act like its a given what some players are going to be because they put up certain numbers wearing sneakers and under armour working out in climate controlled Lucas Oil stadium.

There's a difference between workout drills and position drills. Stephen Hill was never a wide receiver, he's a world class track star. 

 

I have to agree with you though. Alot of people didnt think that Alshon Jeffery would be anything because they simply said he was fat and ran a hair under 4.50. However, anyone who seen him play knew what this kid was. The perfect example that you present. Look at what NFL.com had to say regarding Jeffery's weakness.

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/alshon-jeffery?id=2533039

 

 

"WEAKNESSES

 Jeffery is indeed an elite jump-ball prospect, but his value will be heavily determined by a simple 40 time, as he does not stand out as fast on tape and is such a long strider that he at times looks to be moving in slow motion. Speed will never be his game, but he needs to become more comfortable in his routes to work the corner and truly gain separation. The development of his route running skills will be the key to his success. Jeffery was bit uncoordinated early on in his career and seemingly only began to look comfortable in his body towards the end of his collegiate career."

 

Statements like that are food for fans and a coaching staff/front office who cannot evaluate talent on their own. Everyone who seen him knew that his high pointing was ridiculous and imo his hands were top 10 coming into the NFL easily, having the best hands coming out since Fitzgerald. Then you get statements like this on a website with pictures floating around of an allegedly fat Jeffery coming from people who are probably fatasses themselves and this guy falls to the 2nd round. And the "experts" are no different. They were singing the same combine song while I was getting crazy looks for calling the guy a top 10 talent. 

 

What was Jeffery's value in the end? He ended up being the best WR of his draft class, yet had guys like Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, A.J. Jenkins, Brian Quick and Stephen Hill get drafted before him. And the only other pro bowl WR to come out of that class is TY Hilton....who has arguably the best of the young QB's throwing to him. 

 

We all talk about the 40 time around here because its popular talk, but fans who really understand the combine knows that it really comes down to position drills #1, and #2. you never want to take negatives from the workout portion of the combine, only positives in order to find out how athletic a guy is in support of what you already seen on tape. You never go in and do what Tanny did and decide that a guy is a football player because he's tall, ran a fast 40 and came from the same program as Calvin Johnson....because that's exactly what Tanny did. 

 

 

Overall, the combine is great to watch because you get to see and understand much of the process, but if there was anything as overrated it would be the 40 time, not because it doesnt give you good information, but people equate it to being a football player and it simply doesnt. Its great to know that Kevin White ran a 4.35, only because we felt before his 40 time that he was the most physical WR in his class that is highly active on every play, high points the ball and has pretty good hands. His 40 time simply makes him a speedster as well. However, it tells you nothing about his route running or anything else that comes into play at the position. If you want to get a better idea of a player then simply watch the position drills. Most people will be high on Mariota because of his 40 time while trashing Winston because he ran just under a 5.0. In the position drills however, anyone watching know who's the clear cut better QB. 

 

 

Good thread. 

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I disagree. Straight line speed and game speed are very different. I very rarely saw Hill get separation from anyone in the nfl.

 

You didn't watch.  Straight line speed and game speed in a straight line are identical.  I didn't say HIll could cut, change direction or run routes, but for taking the top off a D, he was as fast as they come. If you want to include quickness in "game speed" fine, but that is a different idea.

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There's a difference between workout drills and position drills. Stephen Hill was never a wide receiver, he's a world class track star. 

 

I have to agree with you though. Alot of people didnt think that Alshon Jeffery would be anything because they simply said he was fat and ran a hair under 4.50. However, anyone who seen him play knew what this kid was. The perfect example that you present. Look at what NFL.com had to say regarding Jeffery's weakness.

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/alshon-jeffery?id=2533039

 

 

"WEAKNESSES

 Jeffery is indeed an elite jump-ball prospect, but his value will be heavily determined by a simple 40 time, as he does not stand out as fast on tape and is such a long strider that he at times looks to be moving in slow motion. Speed will never be his game, but he needs to become more comfortable in his routes to work the corner and truly gain separation. The development of his route running skills will be the key to his success. Jeffery was bit uncoordinated early on in his career and seemingly only began to look comfortable in his body towards the end of his collegiate career."

 

Statements like that are food for fans and a coaching staff/front office who cannot evaluate talent on their own. Everyone who seen him knew that his high pointing was ridiculous and imo his hands were top 10 coming into the NFL easily, having the best hands coming out since Fitzgerald. Then you get statements like this on a website with pictures floating around of an allegedly fat Jeffery coming from people who are probably fatasses themselves and this guy falls to the 2nd round. And the "experts" are no different. They were singing the same combine song while I was getting crazy looks for calling the guy a top 10 talent. 

 

What was Jeffery's value in the end? He ended up being the best WR of his draft class, yet had guys like Justin Blackmon, Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, A.J. Jenkins, Brian Quick and Stephen Hill get drafted before him. And the only other pro bowl WR to come out of that class is TY Hilton....who has arguably the best of the young QB's throwing to him. 

 

We all talk about the 40 time around here because its popular talk, but fans who really understand the combine knows that it really comes down to position drills #1, and #2. you never want to take negatives from the workout portion of the combine, only positives in order to find out how athletic a guy is in support of what you already seen on tape. You never go in and do what Tanny did and decide that a guy is a football player because he's tall, ran a fast 40 and came from the same program as Calvin Johnson....because that's exactly what Tanny did. 

 

 

Overall, the combine is great to watch because you get to see and understand much of the process, but if there was anything as overrated it would be the 40 time, not because it doesnt give you good information, but people equate it to being a football player and it simply doesnt. Its great to know that Kevin White ran a 4.35, only because we felt before his 40 time that he was the most physical WR in his class that is highly active on every play, high points the ball and has pretty good hands. His 40 time simply makes him a speedster as well. However, it tells you nothing about his route running or anything else that comes into play at the position. If you want to get a better idea of a player then simply watch the position drills. Most people will be high on Mariota because of his 40 time while trashing Winston because he ran just under a 5.0. In the position drills however, anyone watching know who's the clear cut better QB. 

 

 

Good thread. 

 

Jeffery dropped because of perceived work ethic problems and the drop in production during his last season, not his 40.   Hill was a bad pick, but it wasn't just his 40.  He supposedly killed it in the gauntlet.

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WTF you talkin about he had the best 3 cone drill and 20yd shuttle among top 5 wr's

where do you come up with this crap?

I don't understand the Amari Cooper hatred that came out recently. Just silly stuff people trying to sound like they know something everyone else doesn't.
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Jeffery dropped because of perceived work ethic problems and the drop in production during his last season, not his 40.   Hill was a bad pick, but it wasn't just his 40.  He supposedly killed it in the gauntlet.

One's perception is one's reality, but that doesnt mean its the truth. This is why I said in my prior post that "certain statements are made for fans and for coaches/front offices who dont evaluate players themselves". Anyone who actually evaluated Alshon Jeffery would have known the exact reason why his production fell. You only draw on perceptions when you dont know the facts. Unfortunately teams got scared off based on fraudulent information, which one team (Chicago) took advantage of the fear these teams showed. As for work ethics.....they should have been paying attention to Justin Blackmon. The stories that people soaked up was total bullsh*t, mix that with the fact that Jeffery didnt run at the combine only fueled this false perception that he was slow, fat and couldn't run due to work ethic. In other words, his lack of running the 40 contributed to his drop. 

 

Funny thing is, I haven't heard one thing out of Chicago that criticized his work ethic. After Jeffery's rookie year Brandon Marshalll even complimented AJ for his work habits.....funny how these articles get so much life but mean sh*t at the end of the day. Yet another reason why I dont mess with the "experts". 

 

Here's an article below that gives a pretty good account of what actually happened during Alshon's last year if you're interested. 

 

nearly impossible to contain in one-on-one. He was likely to break the century-mark in receptions - and surely a lock to reach double-digits in TD receptions. He was a tough guy who didn't miss games and seemed immune to the injury bug. He was not only going to break USC receiving records, but shatter them. The sky was the limit back in April, 2011.

What a difference a year makes. 

So when Alshon was drafted on Friday night as the 45th overall pick - without any cameras on him, and with little fanfare, not to mention a healthy dose of criticism from the various talking heads at ESPN and the NFL Network, it's a fair question to ask "what happened?" Or, perhaps, more acerbically, to want to know "who is to blame" for his draft plummet. Let's take a look at the three men who bear the most culpability.

Read more after The Jump.

1. Stephen Garcia. A year ago, the troubled but talented QB from Lutz, Florida had missed the first week of 2010 spring camp while serving out a suspension for breaking curfew and drinking the night before the Chik-Fil-A Bowl loss (his 4th suspension) Garcia then nearly completely crapped completely out on April 6, 2011 when he was suspended once again for disrupting a mandatory meeting. By late April, though, most of us were convinced he'd be back - and hoping he would chastened enough to realize that he was close to throwing away any chance at a NFL career of his own by his repeated off-the-field problems. When Garcia was finally reinstated by the end of May, 2011, he said all the right things, and looked like he was finally willing to adopt the mantle of leadership expected of a 5th year senior QB going into the 2011 season.

Alas, it was not to be. Despite a few flashes of his old self (his inspired relief appearance in the ECU game, and the first-half roll-out 34 yard TD pass to Alshon in the UGA game), Garcia struggled mightily as the season wore on - becoming progressively sloppier and less confident with each game. By the time he was benched after the Auburn loss, he had thrown at a meager 51.7% completion rate, with only 844 yards and four passing touchdowns against nine interceptions. He was clearly a shadow of his former self and Coach Spurrier had to rely almost entirely on the ground game and defense as a result. Accordingly, it was Jeffery who suffered the most - totaling just 19 catches for 332 yards and two touchdowns before the UK game. The 18 yards-per-catch was impressive, but the two TDs in five games was an eye-catching slump - with just 4 combined receptions (and no TDs) against Vandy and Navy - and it was all clearly Garcia's fault to anyone paying attention to the program.

When Redshirt Sophomore Connor Shaw was promoted to QB1 for the UK game, things looked up - Alshon caught 2 TD passes and had 95 yards against the 'Cats. But Marcus Lattimore went down the following week with a blown ACL against Mississippi State. Notwithstanding AJ1's heroic catch against State with 3:50 left to give us a 14-12 win, with Lattimore sidelined for the rest of the season, opposing D coordinators could now afford to double-team and scheme against Jeffery - and they consistently did.

To compound the situation, while Connor Shaw was courageous with his running, he was hyper-conservative in his pass selection - declining to thrown into the double-coverage on AJ1 where Garcia would have been devil-may-care. Add to the fact that we were primarily relying on a ground-attack and short passing situations, and it's clear that Alshon was the one who was going to suffer. Eight receptions and no TDs each against Tennessee, Arkansas and Florida wrecked Alshon's season from a statistical standpoint. It wasn't until the fourth quarter of the Citadel game that Jeffery got his first TD pass since Mississippi State game a month and four days earlier. In the regular-season finale against Clemson, Jeffery had 1 TD catch - but only 2 receptions.

It's axiomatic that you can't catch the ball if the ball isn't thrown your way. It's certainly not Connor Shaw's fault - he was a new starter, thrust into the unenviable position of replacing the super-popular Garcia, and not certain he even had the full support of his team. Shaw wasn't going to lose it in the air, and it's not like Spurrier and G.A. Mangus were calling many passing plays to begin with - Shaw had just 18, 24, 21, 18 and 21 attempts against Tennessee, Arkansas, Florida, The Citadel and Clemson respectively, and those low numbers were not simply because Shaw decided to run when he might have thrown (though that was part of it). One of the things that got us to 11 wins was that Shaw threw just three picks in those last 5 games; and none against Florida or Clemson.

No - the blame for the fall-off in Alshon's production rests entirely with Garcia. For three years, Garcia and Jeffery were partners, and despite constant and unwavering support from Jeffery (at least publicly), it was Garcia who let his partner down. It was Garcia who failed to uphold his end of the bargain. Had the Garcia who showed up for the 2012 USC Pro Day been the Garcia who reported for 2011 August camp, it should have turned out differently. Had Jeffery simply duplicated his 2010 numbers (80+ catches, 1500+ yards) he would have been a first rounder. Had Garcia delivered 100+ catches, or 1700+ yards, or 15 TD, then Jeffery would have been an early first rounder and the toast of the draft regardless of what weight he played at, or how crisp he ran his routes. We don't have to play the what-if Game in terms of wins, or whether Garcia could have guided us back to the SECCG - if he had played up to his potential, he would have gotten enough balls to Jeffery to launch him into the draft.

The sad reality, however, is that Alshon Jeffery paid a heavy price for Stephen Garcia's self-destructiveness; the sadder fact is that had Jeffery gone to Southern Cal, Matt Barkley would have thrown him into the early first round in the 2012 draft. That's a hard thing for a Gamecock to say, but it's a hard truth that can't be escaped no matter how much we dislike Lane Kiffin or hate that the "other USC" stole our initials and made them their own.

2. Eugene Parker. Some of you might be unfamiliar with this name, but he plays an important role in how Alshon Jeffery ended up in the second round. A former Purdue basketball player and a lawyer, Parker is widely acclaimed as one of the most influential agents in the NFL and runs his own firm - Maximum Sports Management. His client listruns the gamut from Emmett Smith to Ndamukong Suh, as well as recent first-round WR picks Dez Bryant and Michael Crabtree. Parker is famous as the first agent to ever present a player into the NFL Hall of Fame - which he did for his friend and client Deion Sanders. He probably seemed like a sure-bet as an agent when AJ1 signed on with him in mid-February 2012.

Parker, obviously, could do nothing about Alshon's precipitous statistical drop-off in 2011. But he was tasked with doing something about the perception problems that started to crop up as early as late February-early March. You remember them well, of course - that AJ1 had trouble controlling his weight; that he was slow; that he was a sloppy route-runner; and that he had trouble separating from elite CFB corners. Not long thereafter, you started to hear even more outlandish slurs - that Alshon was lazy; that he had "off the field problems"; and that he lacked "work ethic".

Most of it was total b.s. Alshon didn't play any heavier in 2011 than he did in 2010 when he was the toast of the SEC. But perception is it's own form of reality. Clearly the weight and speed issues - combined with the lack of 2011 productivity - were a big concern to NFL teams. Pre-season photos of him in the new UnderArmour unis (including the cover of S.I.) showed a paunch that while going mostly unremarked in August, 2011 became talismans of his poor fitness and lack of work ethic in March, 2012. It was rumored he had ballooned up to 248 and that he couldn't run even a 4.8/40.

Parker dispatched Alshon to the Athlete's Compound at Tampa's Saddlebrook resort, and Alshon  committed himself to several weeks of nine-hour days of track work, route-running and lifting. Sounds like a serious commitment, right? He definitely came out looking leaner and fitter; and he wowed everyone by showing up at the NFL Combine at a svelte 216 after conceding that he had played at 230 in his final season at South Carolina.

But while AJ1 declined to run at the Combine - not all that unusual for guys looking to shave a precious tenth of a second (or two) off their 40 time - he did something completely inexplicable: he declined to participate in any of the combine drills. For a top WR prospect claiming to have the best hands in football, but battling a perception problem, it was a stunning - and foolish - decision. If he was injured he could have (and should have) said so. But by failing to offer a rationale for skipping drills where he should have shined, he simply raised more questions than he answered. Had he been on a crash diet? Was he unable to play at his new weight? Was he some kind of diva? Worse, Alshon's decision to skip the drills looked bad in comparison to Justin Blackmon - who also skipped the 40 time trials - but looked sharp in the drills despite a bad hamstring. When it was all said and done, Blackmon, Notre Dame's Michael Floyd, Baylor's Kendall Wright and Georgia Tech's Stephen Hill all came out looking like better prospects (even Wright, who ran a poor 40 at the Combine). Despite turning in a decent Pro Day with a sub 4,5/40, Alshon couldn't overcome the perception - both in the media and the various NFL front-offices - that he was a second-tier prospect.

Was it Parker's decision for Alshon to skip the drills? Who else's decision could it have been otherwise? It was a judgment call that blew up in his client's face. Had Alshon shown he could hit routes and catch as well as anyone at the Combine, he could have worked his way into the first round. He might be wearing a Titan or Niners uniform next fall instead of a Bear's jersey. Does it make Parker a bad agent? No. But was it bad advice? Absolutely. Eugene Parker will still get great clients in the future; but it's a safe bet that none of them will skip Combine Drills. In the meantime, it's Alshon who will be a little poorer - and a little more frustrated - than he should have been because his agent made a terrible, costly and incomprehensible decision.

3. Alfonzo Dennard. Alshon schooled Nebraska cornerback Alfonzo Dennard in the Capitol One Bowl. Dennard retaliated by taking a swing at Jeffery at the beginning of the second half. Jeffery pushed back, but he never threw a punch. Dennard should have been ejected and was - but Jeffery was also tossed. The CapOne press corps tried to rectify the injustice by naming AJ1 the Bowl MVP, but the damage was done. Alshon now had to dog questions about his character (and his "inability to separate" despite the fact Dennard was literally draped over him every chance he got).

Rather than Dennard bearing all of the blame for starting a fight - as he deserved - it was Jeffery who was pilloried in the national media. You never heard a word about Dennard being downgraded for the fight - not until his recent arrest for assaulting a police officer, that is. Dennard not only deprived Jeffery of a chance to shine in the second half when the game became a blow-out, but tainted Jeffery with his unsportsmanlike attitude and violent temper. If you think should be blamed for pushing back after Dennard swung at him, then you don't "get" football or you're a garden-variety SEC-hater.

What about Alshon Jeffery himself? You might say there's a name missing from this list - Alshon Jeffery himself. After all, by the end of the 2010 season, there was no doubt in anyone's mind - least of all Jeffery's - that he was coming out after the 2011 campaign barring a serious injury. He could have worked on his weight, you might say; or worked on his speed; or worked on his route-running. You could say all that - and there'd be some truth to it.

But compared to what Garcia, Parker and Dennard wrought, I think Jeffery's contributions to his plight are not as consequential. A different QB. A different agent. A different bowl opponent. Any of those things (particular the first two) and AJ1 would have been South Carolina's third first-rounder taken in the 2012 draft. What a shame for him - and for us - that it didn't turn out differently for him.

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WTF you talkin about he had the best 3 cone drill and 20yd shuttle among top 5 wr's

 

where do you come up with this crap?

 

Poorly worded by me, not all of the other drills, but his vertical was atrocious and his broad jump was pretty mediocre. He's a great on the ground receiver, quick, smooth, fast, not that explosive or a ridiculous leaper.

 

You're also not even remotely objective when it comes to Cooper.

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Poorly worded by me, not all of the other drills, but his vertical was atrocious and his broad jump was pretty mediocre. He's a great on the ground receiver, quick, smooth, fast, not that explosive or a ridiculous leaper.

 

You're also not even remotely objective when it comes to Cooper.

the kid is 20yrs old, a 33 vertical is plenty good enough and he will improve it over time, broadjump data means diddly

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the kid is 20yrs old, a 33 vertical is plenty good enough and he will improve it over time, broadjump data means diddly

 

It was tied for the 6th worst vert of 38 participants. High school kids have impressive verticals too, being 20 isn't a good reason for testing out that poorly. And leaping ability is a component of playing wide receiver. Let's call a spade a spade. It was a bad test result. Not the end of the world, but it wasn't a good result.

 

Both are measures of lower body explosiveness which isn't a strength of his in games either. He's an excellent prospect and I know you absolutely love him (presumably because you're an Alabama fan), but he's not without flaws.

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Villain, there is no reason to rehash this bullsh*t again.  There are reasons these guys rise and fall.  Valid or otherwise.  There is no magic formula. Tannenbaum wasn't the greatest evaluator, but to think that he didn't check these guys out is shortsighted.

Then why you even respond to me then? I present you facts based on what you said to me and you talk about me rehashing bullsh*t? I dont understand. My original comment wasnt towards you, you responded to me with information and I was simply showing that though it was the perception, that perception was based on bullsh*t. I was simply trying to respond to you with the actual info. My bad if my lengthy response ruffled feathers, thats wasnt my intent. I was talking to Detroit. 

 

No need to get into the witchcraft of "magic formulas" and what have you. Even if he did check out AJ, his response was Stephen Hill???....lets be serious here. I thought you wanted my opinion on your statement given that you commented on what I said to detroit, at least thats what I perceived. I guess that wasnt the case. 

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It was tied for the 6th worst vert of 38 participants. High school kids have impressive verticals too, being 20 isn't a good reason for testing out that poorly. And leaping ability is a component of playing wide receiver. Let's call a spade a spade. It was a bad test result. Not the end of the world, but it wasn't a good result.

 

Both are measures of lower body explosiveness which isn't a strength of his in games either. He's an excellent prospect and I know you absolutely love him (presumably because you're an Alabama fan), but he's not without flaws.

You do know that Odell Beckhams broadjump was about the same right?  Beckham's verticle was 5 inches different, Odell 40 was 4.43

Both have size 10 inch hands which is a good thing. what was Jerry rice's verticle and broadjump?

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Then why you even respond to me then? I present you facts based on what you said to me and you talk about me rehashing bullsh*t? I dont understand. My original comment wasnt towards you, you responded to me with information and I was simply showing that though it was the perception, that perception was based on bullsh*t. I was simply trying to respond to you with the actual info. My bad if my lengthy response ruffled feathers, thats wasnt my intent. I was talking to Detroit. 

 

No need to get into the witchcraft of "magic formulas" and what have you. Even if he did check out AJ, his response was Stephen Hill???....lets be serious here. I thought you wanted my opinion on your statement given that you commented on what I said to detroit, at least thats what I perceived. I guess that wasnt the case. 

 

Because you can't accept that these guys checked them all out and avoided Jeffery.  Tannenbaum isn't the only guy.  SF picked an all-time bust well ahead of Hill. Is their GM a moron that listens to fansites?  Half that front office has been promoted since.  Tenn and St Louis would also probably like their picks back.  I don't have any problem with your lengthy response my problem is with the idea that any scout could see Jeffery would be a slam dunk.  There were plenty of articles about how he started to take his conditioning more seriously between his rookie and sophomore seasons.  Do you think everybody thought he was such a slam dunk when he caught 25 balls as a rookie? You saw his college production and #tape and loved him, others were scared off.  You were right, they were wrong.  It doesn't mean their only exposure to the kid was reading quotes on the internet.

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You do know that Odell Beckhams broadjump was about the same right?  Beckham's verticle was 5 inches different, Odell 40 was 4.43

Both have size 10 inch hands which is a good thing. what was Jerry rice's verticle and broadjump?

 

Yeah, so Beckham tested out more explosive and looked more explosive in college. That makes sense. Five inches on the vertical is pretty significant.

 

Jerry Rice comps get thrown out every time somebody tests out poorly in any drill. How many of them have ended up as good as Rice?

 

I've said that Cooper is an excellent prospect multiple times, I'm not going to tell you a 33 inch vertical is good because it isn't. 

 

It's spelled vertical.

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Because you can't accept that these guys checked them all out and avoided Jeffery.  Tannenbaum isn't the only guy.  SF picked an all-time bust well ahead of Hill. Is their GM a moron that listens to fansites?  Half that front office has been promoted since.  Tenn and St Louis would also probably like their picks back.  I don't have any problem with your lengthy response my problem is with the idea that any scout could see Jeffery would be a slam dunk.  There were plenty of articles about how he started to take his conditioning more seriously between his rookie and sophomore seasons.  Do you think everybody thought he was such a slam dunk when he caught 25 balls as a rookie? You saw his college production and #tape and loved him, others were scared off.  You were right, they were wrong.  It doesn't mean their only exposure to the kid was reading quotes on the internet.

So, because you're alluding that SF's GM isn't a moron does that suddenly make Tannenbaum smart? Really Dom? You just told me to stop the bullsh*t yet you write that? That had nothing to do with anything, BUT, I'll play along anyway. :-)

SanFran's GM drafts an all-time bust, but his staff ultimately gets promotions because they win. In comparison, Tannenbaum drafts not just one all-time Jets bust in Hill, but three all-time Jets busts if you add Wilson and Vlad Ducasse and one of the greatest bust in NFL history in Vernon Gholston and he also traded for, wait for it,.......Tim Tebow! Also, none of his staff to my knowledge gets promoted anywhere, matter of fact, the rest of those guys just got fired by Maccagnan because they dont produce a winning product. Touché?

 

I never said that a teams only exposure to a player is reading quotes on the internet. They could have taken that disinformation that was being overly reported everywhere into consideration, however, to the point of it overshadowing what his #tape showed, kinda like how you stated earlier about how Stephen Hill "Killed it" on the gauntlet, though his #tape doesnt show this guy killing anything. Maybe the gauntlet overshadowed his #tape and Tanny decided to be the "smartest dumbass in the room". It seems like things outside of #tape was being considered. And though I understand that there are things to consider outside of what is on the field, certain things should simply be ignored or taken with a grain of salt. We had this exact situation. Jameis Winston was a fatass just 1 week ago remember? For example, if for some reason this guy didnt participate at the Combine (Like Jeffery on behalf of bad advice from his agent) then all of these articles today would be buzzing about how Winston's not being in shape just made Mariota the #1 qb/pick in the draft, though his decision in the combine had nothing to do with him not being in shape or being fat. And I bet that these articles that ultimately get picked up by the likes of Mike Mayock or Todd McShay could have an influence on Tampa Bay's decision making given their access to such information that isn't credible, yet reported....everywhere. You follow me? To make it seem like GM's and coaches dont read or have access to information in articles, or see the saturation of specific pieces of info lets me know that you are HIGHLY underestimating the power of the internet and availability of information in general, by limiting its availability and its reach to "Fansites". Again...really?

 

Moral of the story, Anything that you take in should be in support of what you see on #tape. Anything else not coming from your scouting department is most likely noise. 

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Yeah, so Beckham tested out more explosive and looked more explosive in college. That makes sense. Five inches on the vertical is pretty significant.

 

Jerry Rice comps get thrown out every time somebody tests out poorly in any drill. How many of them have ended up as good as Rice?

 

I've said that Cooper is an excellent prospect multiple times, I'm not going to tell you a 33 inch vertical is good because it isn't. 

 

It's spelled vertical.

Spelling police lmao

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Poorly worded by me, not all of the other drills, but his vertical was atrocious and his broad jump was pretty mediocre. He's a great on the ground receiver, quick, smooth, fast, not that explosive or a ridiculous leaper.

 

You're also not even remotely objective when it comes to Cooper.

 

Atrocious is a little much.  He can still easily dunk a basketball.  It's not like he pulled a Jarvis Landry out there.

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Atrocious is a little much.  He can still easily dunk a basketball.  It's not like he pulled a Jarvis Landry out there.

 

Okay, it was very bad. Bottom seven out of almost 40 participants.

 

The vertical and broad jumps don't really mean a lot for wide receivers.

 

Leaping is actually something receivers have to do, so I don't know why the vertical wouldn't mean a lot. And both are tests of lower body explosiveness, which is appears to be a weakness when watching Cooper and those numbers back it up. It is what it is.

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Okay, it was very bad. Bottom seven out of almost 40 participants.

 

 

Leaping is actually something receivers have to do, so I don't know why the vertical wouldn't mean a lot. And both are tests of lower body explosiveness, which is appears to be a weakness when watching Cooper and those numbers back it up. It is what it is.

 

The vertical measures a player's standing vertical. It doesn't measure whether the player is 'good at jumping' in any meaningful sense.

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