prime21 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Our season ended in week 1 last year because Decker pulled a hammy. People want to have even less depth at WR? We need more not less. In 2010 Cotchery in his prime was 3rd on our depth chart. That's the kind of depth you need at WR when you don't have a great qb. Yeah that's why are season ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Yeah that's why are season ended. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Our season ended in week 1 last year because Decker pulled a hammy. People want to have even less depth at WR? We need more not less. In 2010 Cotchery in his prime was 3rd on our depth chart. That's the kind of depth you need at WR when you don't have a great qb. Just to point something out, but with 60+ million in cap space, retaining our 4th round pick, and having a "talent-guy" GM now in place, no one is advocating for having "less depth" at WR. Again, the argument seems to be from your side that Harvin is the greatest WR in the NFL. Utterly irreplaceable by ANY other WR, ANY other draft oick or combination of draft picks, and that we simply CANNOT and WILL NOT win anything without him. Seems a bit of an exageration, frankly. Tell me, whats the absolutel worst thing cutting Harvin does to us for 2015? One extra loss maybe? Maybe, If that. And thats if he is healthy all season, good attitude all season, and Geno Smith becomes an average QB at some point. 1 win. In an obvious rebuilding/non-title run season. If we were one WR away from a title, I still don't Harvin can be that one WR, but at least there would be the argument to keep him. Other than a load of hyperbole about how he can't be replaced and how everyone who wants to cut him wants to "cut the whole team" or "have less depth" or "sign more Idzik scrubs", I've yet to hear what Harvin actually brings to the Jets, realistically, thats so irreplaceable, again presuming he avoids health issues and attitude issues and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 "One loss" means A LOT. One loss could mean missing the playoffs. One loss could mean drafting 6th instead of 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 "One loss" means A LOT. One loss could mean missing the playoffs. One loss could mean drafting 6th instead of 3rd. Which would matter if we were projected to be a 12-13 win team vying for Home Field. And when we ARE that team, I'll happy spend picks and cap like a drunken impatient sailor to secure that "just one more guy" to win. WE ARE NOT THAT TEAM. What is so hard to understand, really? That we're coming off a few win season with one of the least talented rosters in the NFL? This is Revis all over again, without Revis's talent. When you are where we are, you do not sign Harvins. You let him walk, use his ten million to sign two players, and the 4th he would have cost to draft another WR or QB or DB. We are so thin, so weak on talent, Harvin makes no difference. But a young lineman, a DB and a 4th round WR sure could make a difference by the time we restocked and reloaded to be competative. Why are so many Jets Fans seemingly convinced we're the Cowboys signing our Dion (Harvin) to "get us over the top". What is that based on really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ok so save the 10 million. Which WR would you target in FA or what round would you draft a WR.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ok so save the 10 million. Which WR would you target in FA or what round would you draft a WR.? Which ever one (preferably two) our new, talent-evaluating GM decides are the best prospects for future success. This works against me, I should point out, if Macags DOES resign Harvin to blah blah years, I have to presume I was was wrong, and Bit and you and Co. right, and Harvin really was better than any other WR on the market or in the draft, and was in fact irreplaceable. I don;t watch minor league football, so asking me to name specificl players from college wastes both our time. That why Macags makes the big bucks. EDIT: By the way, is that you John? If so, very glad you turned up here at JN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You would only hope the GM makes the right call in signing or cutting him. It doesn't mean any of us are right or wrong. We are just trying to wear our fan GM caps and figure out what we think is right. As far as other players I just don't want to get a guy for 7-8 million that is no where near the talent level of Percy just t save a 2 million bucks. 2nd person to ask if I'm John but I'm not. John must be handsome and smart like me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRy56 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I want both. We need depth at WR. If last year isn't definitive obvious proof that depth at WR is critical I don't know what is. If you guys think trotting out the Cumbys and Kerleys out there is setting up Mariota for success you got something else coming and that's another 4-12 season or worse. You would be ok with handing out 20 million to the two of them? I dunno about all that. I'd rather sign Cobb for cheaper and draft a wide receiver in an incredibly deep draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetster Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 You would be ok with handing out 20 million to the two of them? I dunno about all that. I'd rather sign Cobb for cheaper and draft a wide receiver in an incredibly deep draft. I agree with you on this. You can't put 5 wide receivers out there all the time. Plus Geno is our QB. Sign 1 WR whether that's Harvin or Cobb. Or maybe go bigger tougher & sign Crabtree for less money? I like the way Crabtree battled vs Sherman in the playoffs. I'd like to see most of the money we have used for our secondary & OLB! With our Dline, we are really, really close to having a kickazz defense. Use the draft for some young offensive talent infusion. We already drafted Amaro. Hopefully we end up with Mariota, a 2nd round WR, 3rd round RB, some Olineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 No it doesn't. It starts with making good, smart, long-term player personnel decisions. Giving up a 4th, paying 10 million, for one year of an oft-injured, attitude-problem, 600 yard-a-year trickster KR/WR is not a good, long-term, player-persoonel decision. It's a short term circus for the masses and drunks. A "name" for the ignorant plebes to root for, another jersey seller, not a game winner. You presume we'll be worse. Facts do not support such an assertion, for example, Harvin has a greater than average chance of getting hurt next year, leaving us short our 4th round pick, the 10 million AND the WR you so love. Presuming he'll play 6, have a good attitude, catch for 1,300 yards.....it's possible, sure. Just not very likely. I don;t see Harvin vs. the alternatives as a meaningful difference in short term games won. Not on this team, at this time, with this QB. Laughable. I'm sure there will be a few who do more than get hurt, wreck the locker room, and maybe, if we're lucky, catch for 600 yards. Because Decker is not particularly injury prone, he's not a locker room cancer, and he's a solid WR, not a razzle-dazzle running back/kr. /shrug, what, you want pity? wow! warfish I think I love you man!!! dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASH1962 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 You guys want to cut everyone LOL, what do you get when you cut everyone? The NEW YORK KNICKS LOL. Watching the Jets last season was exactly like watching the Knicks this season - pointless, so I see (and agree with) everyone's point on wanting to rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If the jets keep Harvin is macags dead to the "smart" jets fans because he didn't follow the tenets of salary capology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully28 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I was an advocate for keeping Harvin and we could certainly afford him, Im just never a fan of overpaying a player. The fourth round pick I could care less about, Harvin is better than anything we'll find in that round. 11 million for a guy who is injury prone and inconsistent when healthy is just something I can't justify. I won't be terribly upset if he stays, but I'd rather cut him and spend that 11 million elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Harvin is the best available WR, please keep him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 the CBA states that deals can only be reworked after three full years for 1st rd picks. This is a good tidbit I was not aware of. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsRay Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If we can land Cobb at the contract the Jets were hoping to restructure Harvin with, ok... I would even extend the same for Torrey Smith or Maclin Otherwise, there is really no reason we should be hurrying to waive Harvin without a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 If we can land Cobb at the contract the Jets were hoping to restructure Harvin with, ok... I would even extend the same for Torrey Smith or Maclin Otherwise, there is really no reason we should be hurrying to waive Harvin without a replacement. That is the nice thing about Harvin's expiration date. The Jets get a week or so to kick some tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I was an advocate for keeping Harvin and we could certainly afford him, Im just never a fan of overpaying a player. The fourth round pick I could care less about, Harvin is better than anything we'll find in that round. 11 million for a guy who is injury prone and inconsistent when healthy is just something I can't justify. I won't be terribly upset if he stays, but I'd rather cut him and spend that 11 million elsewhere. We can continue to trot out the Stephen Hills, Chaz Schilenses, David Nelson's and Clyde Gateses and I'm sure we could pay the fair market value. We would never make the playoffs again but the capology would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully28 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 We can continue to trot out the Stephen Hills, Chaz Schilenses, David Nelson's and Clyde Gateses and I'm sure we could pay the fair market value. We would never make the playoffs again but the capology would be great. I never said sign some garbage reciever instead. I like the idea of drafting Amari or White in the 1st or signing Torrey Smith. I just think that Harvin isn't worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOZ THE JET Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I understand everybody arguments in this situation but 1 thing is for sure is keeping Harvin won't destroy our off season plans with over 55mil of cap space & #6 pick to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The Jets have a little wiggle room here. If Percy doesn't want to restructure then he would want to get cut this week so he can have a fair crack at teams in the market for a WR. The Jets could let him hang while WR needy teams go after Cobb, Maclin Smith, etc. Percy should restructure now because he could wind up getting less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I never said sign some garbage reciever instead. I like the idea of drafting Amari or White in the 1st or signing Torrey Smith. I just think that Harvin isn't worth the money. Change that or to and. They need a WR. If they cut Harvin they need 2. If not, at least a WR and a tweener receiving threat RB like Spiller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I never said sign some garbage reciever instead. I like the idea of drafting Amari or White in the 1st or signing Torrey Smith. I just think that Harvin isn't worth the money. Most likely Cooper doesn't fall to 6. So you would take White over Shane Ray? I wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnie Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Most likely Cooper doesn't fall to 6. So you would take White over Shane Ray? I wouldn't I would ... G Brandt doesn't believe in Ray either. Brandt: “He’s got a thin body build, and if they start running at those guys, they have a hard time hiding.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I would ... G Brandt doesn't believe in Ray either. Brandt: “He’s got a thin body build, and if they start running at those guys, they have a hard time hiding.” 1.Ray is a 3-4 Olb who can rush the passer 2. I don't give a f what Gil Brandt thinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Most likely Cooper doesn't fall to 6. So you would take White over Shane Ray? I wouldn't White's going to be a stud best WR in the draft. If the QB's not there I would be ecstatic if White was the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully28 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Most likely Cooper doesn't fall to 6. So you would take White over Shane Ray? I wouldn't I don't know, White impressed even me at the combine. Chances are either Cooper or White are there for us at 6 and I really think this is going to be an unbelievable year for rookie pass rushers, I prefer Dante Fowler, but would love Shane Ray too. If the jets pick up Torrey Smith or some viable outside receiver in FA, then I take an OLB with the 6th pick. Just because I feel as if WR is usually deep with talent, while elite pass rushers, especially 3-4 OLB are harder to come by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetster Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't know, White impressed even me at the combine. Chances are either Cooper or White are there for us at 6 and I really think this is going to be an unbelievable year for rookie pass rushers, I prefer Dante Fowler, but would love Shane Ray too. If the jets pick up Torrey Smith or some viable outside receiver in FA, then I take an OLB with the 6th pick. Just because I feel as if WR is usually deep with talent, while elite pass rushers, especially 3-4 OLB are harder to come by That's why I'd like to grab Graham, Hughes or Worilds in free agency. Nice to have someone that has proved themselves. Then I'd be completely for taking Cooper or White. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully28 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That's why I'd like to grab Graham, Hughes or Worilds in free agency. Nice to have someone that has proved themselves. Then I'd be completely for taking Cooper or White. I think everyone would be happy with one of the OLB or WR prospects. We just have to see how free agency plays out and if we're still in need of a WR and OLB at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsFanatic Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 i don't think some of you understand how difficult it will be to spend that much cash. Or that on an open market Harvin probably gets $7 a year this offseason. Harvin makes plays in space. Gaileys offense needs players who makes plays in space. We can still cut Harvin in 2016 if this season doesn't work out. Yeah, he's overpaid. No, it doesn't really hurt us in 2015. Whoever our QB is will need players to help them out and make some plays. Might as well keep him unless you're bringing in Cobb or maybe Spiller and Johnson I agree with you. His contract has no guaranteed money and he does hurt our cap this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOZ THE JET Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The more I think about it, The Jets should keep Harvin & cough up the 4th Rd pick its only fair to see what he can do in this system under the new regime, remember he didn't have a Ota, training camp or preseason with us last yr everybody gets a clean slate & if he doesn't work out let him walk next off season it will cost them nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The more I think about it, The Jets should keep Harvin & cough up the 4th Rd pick its only fair to see what he can do in this system under the new regime, remember he didn't have a Ota, training camp or preseason with us last yr everybody gets a clean slate & if he doesn't work out let him walk next off season it will cost them nothing. Just to be clear, what that decision would "cost" is 3-to-4 years of a should-be-starter (the 4th round pick) and the opportunity to spend the 10 million/year on another player/starter in free agency. Basically, the choice to retain Harvin for one year will cost the Jets two potential starters (stress potential, that would lay on Macags talent eval. skills) for the next 3-4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The more I think about it, The Jets should keep Harvin & cough up the 4th Rd pick its only fair to see what he can do in this system under the new regime, remember he didn't have a Ota, training camp or preseason with us last yr everybody gets a clean slate & if he doesn't work out let him walk next off season it will cost them nothing. My not-hate about keeping him is partly this (minus the "only fair" angle), and that it makes it far more likely to keep all options on the table at #6. Picking up a $9M (or whatever he gets) wideout in Cobb, who will surely get $20M guaranteed, might make the team go overboard on need-based options at #6 and pass on a WR even if Maccagnan (correctly) thinks said prospect will be a top 3-5 WR for years to come. (Or as good as any WR can be without a QB lol). I'd rather they don't lose a 4th rounder, but as things stand the Jets aren't locked into Harvin's salary on August 28th any more than they are today or next month or ever. So while I don't think the 4th rounder - or more correctly, downgrading the 4th to a 6th - has no value, I wouldn't want preserving that pick to paint us into making the wrong selection at #6 based on present team structure and regretting it for 10 years. IMO there are better ways of recouping a 4th round draft pick. It's all moot, though. He's said he's not restructuring and that's what Maccagnan wanted out of him. He can't really just keep him after that. I mean he can in the literal sense, but in practical terms he can't play chicken and lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EBoozer Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Breaking down the Jets' Percy Harvin decision March, 5, 2015 Mar 5 1:30 PM ET By Rich Cimini | ESPN.com John Idzik’s "potential coup" -- last season’s acquisition of Percy Harvin -- has left his successor, Mike Maccagnan, with a fascinating and complex decision, one that will require input from different branches of the New York Jets' organization. Before we jump into the pros and cons of keeping Harvin, let’s review the facts: Harvin has four years, $41.5 million remaining on his contract, none of which is guaranteed. That includes a $10.5 million base salary for the coming season. If Harvin is on the roster March 19, the conditional draft pick owed to the Seattle Seahawks escalates from a sixth-round choice to a fourth rounder. If they cut him before the 19th, the compensation is simply a sixth rounder in next month’s draft. [+] Enlarge Frederick Breedon/Getty ImagesPercy Harvin has four years and $41.5 million left on his contract, none of which is guaranteed. Basically, the Jets have three options. Let’s examine, looking at the positives and negatives in each scenario. 1. Keep him under his current contract You could argue that the Jets, with a dearth of playmakers on offense, should do whatever they can to keep talented players, not toss them out. Because the salary isn’t guaranteed, they would essentially be signing up for one year, with the ability to cut him if, say, he reverts to his disruptive ways of the past. There is no long-term commitment, which might be the way to go with a player who wore out his welcome with two teams previously. The Jets also must consider how Harvin might fit into Chan Gailey’s scheme. This is where Maccagnan must lean on his coaching staff for input. If Gailey installs a spread offense, as many suspect, it would be a nice fit with Harvin’s skill set. He’s at his best in a short-passing game, making yards after the catch. He could line up anywhere in the formation, creating matchup problems for the defense. With more than $50 million in cap space, the Jets can easily swallow the salary. Analysis: At $10.5 million, Harvin would be the highest-paid player on the team in terms of 2015 compensation. That’s out of whack. 2. Keep him with a restructured contract Harvin wants no part of a pay cut, presumably because he believes he can fetch at least $10.5 million on the open market. He would be amenable to a simple restructuring, meaning the conversion of salary into signing bonus. In other words, they could cut his base pay to $870,000, the veterans’ minimum, giving him the difference ($9.63 million) in the form of a signing bonus. That would allow them to pro-rate the bonus over the four years of the contract, lowering his cap number this year to a palatable $3.28 million. There’s a downside, though. By doing this, the Jets would be sinking money into Harvin beyond 2015 (with regard to the cap) and that could come back to bite them. If they decide in a year to cut Harvin, they would get hit with his bonus acceleration in 2016, a cap charge of $7.2 million (pre-June 1). By then, he will have cost the Jets a total of $17.6 million (salaries for ’14 and ’15) and a fourth-round pick for 24 games (assuming he plays every game). That’s not a cost-effective way of doing business. To Harvin’s credit, he was a model teammate last season, as he tried to squash his reputation for being a divisive influence. He played hurt and he adapted nicely to a new environment and a new offense. Cynics will say he was on his best behavior because of the financial motivation. Will he revert to the old Percy if he scores the $10.5 million salary? That, no doubt, will be part of Maccagnan’s decision. One thing to remember: The Jets have two forms of leverage. Under the current contract, they can cut Harvin with no salary-cap ramifications. They also can benefit from the timing of the deadline -- March 19, one week into free agency. By then, the big money will have been spent on other receivers. The Jets can hurt his negotiating position in the open market by holding on to him until March 18. Analysis: If the Jets guarantee $10.5 million, which is what they would be doing by restructuring the remaining four years, they would be looking at least a two-year commitment because of the cap situation. That would be risky, considering his checkered background. 3. Release him Unless Harvin is willing to take a straight pay cut, this probably will be the outcome. They would lose a starting receiver with tantalizing skills, but we’re talking about a player who has never had a 1,000-yard receiving season. His recent production (52 catches over the past two seasons) doesn’t justify an exorbitant cap charge ($10.5 million) or his average per year ($10.4 million). The Jets have the cap space, but they evidently don’t feel he’s worth the big number, as Maccagnan hinted recently that they might ask him to restructure. Teams don’t like to overpay if they can help it. The other layer to the decision is the draft-pick compensation. For a rebuilding team like the Jets, a fourth-round pick has value. It’s a potential starter, a cost-effective player whose rights they would own for four years. If the Jets have concerns about Harvin’s long-term viability, they should cut bait, surrender the sixth rounder and call it a day. It wouldn’t make sense to part with a fourth-round pick for what could be a one-year proposition. What’s more, they could replace him via the draft. It’s another terrific draft for receivers, and there is a good chance they would get one of the top two receivers -- Amari Cooper or Kevin White -- with the sixth overall pick. Analysis: The Jets should try to sign a starting-caliber receiver during the first week of free agency. If they find one, the Harvin decision is academic. It probably would cost more than $10.5 million, but they would feel more comfortable in the long term and would still have their fourth-round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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