Pats' trick play vs Baltimore no longer allowed

[TuscanyTile2]

I'm not in any way defending the cheating the Pats have done (spygate, deflate-gate) but I give BB a ton of credit for that play against the Ravens.  To me it shows he did outwork his opponent and he used that trick at the perfect time.  I would absolutely love it if Bowles did something like this.  I hate the Pats and I think BB is a grouch but I have great respect for his coaching (cheating notwithstanding).  I still say the single worst event in Jets' history was losing BB as HC of the NYJ.

[Smashmouth]

Bill Belichick is the Don Shula of this era Two cheats made from the same mold. Hate them both

[ghost_in_pads02]

All true, but a lot of those things really have noting to do with the Pats themselves. 

 

- Tuck Rule should have never even existed, the fact that the Pats were the only team to ever benefit from it is horrible.

 

The patriots were not the only team to ever benefit from the tuck rule. The following year the jets played the pats. The tuck rule was called in favor of the jets.

 

also a few teams there after have benefitted from that rule.

[Cyberjet]

Yes it was clever but it was deception not soley by it's formation bur rather by the use of players (their numbers) to deceive. Players have numbers for certain positions to create order in the football system. There is a reason for that. This formation was literally 'within the rules' but not within the spirit of fair play. In other words other coaches looked at the rule and saw the obvious intent of the rule whereas BB sought a way to bend the rule to the point of being devious.

[Larz]

so the owners had to deal with the cheaters on 3 separate issues this week

 

******* disgrace

[AFJF]

The patriots were not the only team to ever benefit from the tuck rule. The following year the jets played the pats. The tuck rule was called in favor of the jets.

 

also a few teams there after have benefitted from that rule.

 

What I meant to say was...benefited from it in a way that mattered.

[ghost_in_pads02]

Yes it was clever but it was deception not soley by it's formation bur rather by the use of players (their numbers) to deceive. Players have numbers for certain positions to create order in the football system. There is a reason for that. This formation was literally 'within the rules' but not within the spirit of fair play. In other words other coaches looked at the rule and saw the obvious intent of the rule whereas BB sought a way to bend the rule to the point of being devious.

It was clever. Point blank nothing to see here.

Players by number get used from defense all the time.

D.sanders had played wide out, so has d.hester, jj. Watts, etc. The nfl needed to make the rule clearer...

Point blank the ravens lost n got out smarted..moving on.

[AFJF]

Yes it was clever but it was deception not soley by it's formation bur rather by the use of players (their numbers) to deceive. Players have numbers for certain positions to create order in the football system. There is a reason for that. This formation was literally 'within the rules' but not within the spirit of fair play. In other words other coaches looked at the rule and saw the obvious intent of the rule whereas BB sought a way to bend the rule to the point of being devious.

 

Belichick doesn't care about the spirit of anything...it's one of the reasons for his success.

[ghost_in_pads02]

What I meant to say was...benefited from it in a way that mattered.

Shouldn't make the pats that much more of a culprit or that much more special. It happened when it happened for the rule to take affect.

Fans just can't stop whining about their success

[AFJF]

Shouldn't make the pats that much more of a culprit or that much more special. It happened when it happened for the rule to take affect.

Fans just can't stop whining about their success

 

Terrible call wasn't their fault.  Fans would deal with their success much better if they hadn't been caught cheating.  A lot of Pats fans live in this world where "everyone hates us because we're so good" but I never hated the niners or cowboys growing up.  They dominated but you watched them and felt like they earned it so there was a level of respect for them that doesn't exist for the Pats.  I actually used to get a lot of flack from fellow Jets fans for praising BB and all the work he did pre-spygate.  Once they got caught cheating, my buddies looked at me and just said "Defensive genius, huh?  I guess we know how he pulled that off" 

[SickJetFan]

I agree. It was creative....and you knew when they had success with it, that the rules would be changed. It is shady but it was definitely legal so it was a smart move by the Pats.

wasnt a player suppose to have come off the field after declaring inelidgable and he did not?  So they were doing this hurry up, skirt the rules, break the rules bs and got away with it.

[ghost_in_pads02]

Terrible call wasn't their fault.  Fans would deal with their success much better if they hadn't been caught cheating.  A lot of Pats fans live in this world where "everyone hates us because we're so good" but I never hated the niners or cowboys growing up.  They dominated but you watched them and felt like they earned it so there was a level of respect for them that doesn't exist for the Pats.  I actually used to get a lot of flack from fellow Jets fans for praising BB and all the work he did pre-spygate.  Once they got caught cheating, my buddies looked at me and just said "Defensive genius, huh?  I guess we know how he pulled that off" 

no pats fans live in the same world every other fan lives in.

 

 

and going over this for the 1millionth time. spygate happened, they were punished..at some point you move on from it (plenty of coaches and players came out to prove spygate was not that serious)...their success has nothing to do with spygate, ..it has been proven since 07. And this past year put it completely to rest. Also there's plenty facts out there to proven BB is a top five coach of all time, but again....in the world of sports...fans hate other teams success.

 

 

so....ehh!

haters gonna hate

fans gonna b*tch!

[AFJF]

no pats fans live in the same world every other fan lives in.

 

 

and going over this for the 1millionth time. spygate happened, they were punished..at some point you move on from it (plenty of coaches and players came out to prove spygate was not that serious)...their success has nothing to do with spygate..it has been proven since 07. And this past year put it completely to rest. But again....in the world of sports...fans hate other teams success.

 

 

so....ehh!

haters gonna hate

fans gonna b*tch!

 

In all honesty... I can't say I wouldn't make similar rationalizations if the Jets cheated their way to a few rings.  I'd like to think I'd be above it but I don't know because that would be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow.

[ghost_in_pads02]

In all honesty... I can't say I wouldn't make similar rationalizations if the Jets cheated their way to a few rings.  I'd like to think I'd be above it but I don't know because that would be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow.

I wouldn't(care) cause.

 

the sports world is not like your real life world, or mine. You have no idea what these teams, players, coaches etc. do to get an edge..if you honestly think all 32 teams are trying to stand on some moral high ground...you would be respectively a fool!

 

these franchises only care about the bottom line.....

 

 

is there any outcry for jim irsay from the other 31 owners...no! but from a "moral" high ground..you and I know it's f'd up what he is able to do and get away with.

[Cyberjet]

It was clever. Point blank nothing to see here.

Players by number get used from defense all the time.

D.sanders had played wide out, so has d.hester, jj. Watts, etc. The nfl needed to make the rule clearer...

Point blank the ravens lost n got out smarted..moving on.

You are making my point - when those players were used they were done in a fashion that conformed to the rules and spirit of engagement. The Pats used a hurry up offense and a loophole that was questionable all designed to confuse the Ravens AND the officials because they knew it was a borderline play. Using other players you cited didnt require a rule change but this one had to made clearer to Pats what the intent of the rule was since they obviously cannot adhere to a level playing field.

[AFJF]

I wouldn't(care) cause.

 

the sports world is not like your real life world, or mine. You have no idea what these teams, players, coaches etc. do to get an edge..if you honestly think all 32 teams are trying to stand on some moral high ground...you would be respectively a fool!

 

these franchises only care about the bottom line.....

 

 

is there any outcry for jim irsay from the other 31 owners...no! but from a "moral" high ground..you and I know it's f'd up what he is able to do and get away with.

 

You have to consider your personal intergrity too.  I'm a pretty honest guy...to a fault really.  If I lowered my standards and was willing to endorse lying/cheating/stealing then I wouldn't be happy with the type of person I'd become.   It is "just sports" but my attitude toward it can be a reflection of myself and my values.  I realize that there are a lot of people who would gladly have a cheater/rapist/murderer/pedophile on their team as long as they produced.  Me...not so much. 

 

I've had several arguments over the years with fellow Jets fans about players I wouldn't want on the team based on the kind of people we sometimes know them to be no matter how good they are.

 

Of course teams try to gain an edge.  Sometimes it's gamesmanship like reading somebody's lips or looking for a "tell" from a coach/player/organization and that's part of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

Once you start blatantly using illegal equipment you're getting in to an area where there's not something the opposition can do to prevent it and it becomes cheating.  That bothers me but I fully understand that we don't all share the same value/belief system and as I said earlier, I can't say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't do what many people do and change my beliefs if it meant cheering for a multi-super bowl winning team.

[Cyberjet]

Also what have happened if the Pats ran it by the refs of the Nfl rules committee - they would tell them not allowed

[AFJF]

You are making my point - when those players were used they were done in a fashion that conformed to the rules and spirit of engagement. The Pats used a hurry up offense and a loophole that was questionable all designed to confuse the Ravens AND the officials because they knew it was a borderline play. Using other players you cited didnt require a rule change but this one had to made clearer to Pats what the intent of the rule was since they obviously cannot adhere to a level playing field.

 

The officials are the most important part of the whole situation IMO but we'll never know if the refs were made aware of the play in the days leading up to the game.  If not, it falls closer to the "cheating" category.  Before this play made headlines I didn't realize that teams meet with refs in the days leading up to the game to alert them to any "odd" or "different" plays they're going to use so that the refs know what they're seeing when it  happens.  If the Pats chose to omit that from a meeting whose very purpose is to identify those types of things, then it's not as much genius as it is circumventing the rules.

[AFJF]

Also what have happened if the Pats ran it by the refs of the Nfl rules committee - they would tell them not allowed

 

Do we know that for sure?  I hadn't heard that reported anywhere.

[Cyberjet]

No not for sure - i thought I read that somewhere in the press that some argued that the Pats should have engaged the NFL rules committee and / or the refs because it was a borderline questionable play. The success of the play was secrecy and confusion. If the Pats layed this out before hand with the rules committee / refs I take it all back. Why would they approve something which they obviously was felt to be unfair afterwards.

[Jetster]

The officials are the most important part of the whole situation IMO but we'll never know if the refs were made aware of the play in the days leading up to the game.  If not, it falls closer to the "cheating" category.  Before this play made headlines I didn't realize that teams meet with refs in the days leading up to the game to alert them to any "odd" or "different" plays they're going to use so that the refs know what they're seeing when it  happens.  If the Pats chose to omit that from a meeting whose very purpose is to identify those types of things, then it's not as much genius as it is circumventing the rules.

They wanted the refs to be confused, which they were.

The part that burned Harbaughs azz is that they were doing it like a HURRY UP so the defenders even though the I eligibles were announced, had trouble relating that to the movement on the field & Vareen moving into the slot as in eligible.

Just typical satan Belichick pulling it out down by 14 & in a desperate situation calling for desperate measures.

I would not be shocked if this little wrinkle was figured out by Ernie Adams.

[AFJF]

No not for sure - i thought I read that somewhere in the press that some argued that the Pats should have engaged the NFL rules committee and / or the refs because it was a borderline questionable play. The success of the play was secrecy and confusion. If the Pats layed this out before hand with the rules committee / refs I take it all back. Why would they approve something which they obviously was felt to be unfair afterwards.

 

Yeah but that's 100% speculation.  If the refs were made aware of the play leading up to the game as they should have been then there's no way they can tell a team not to run a play that is within the rules because it's confusing to theopponent.  If the Pats did not make the officials aware then it's another douche move from them.  As far as I know, there's not any way to find that out.

[AFJF]

They wanted the refs to be confused, which they were.

The part that burned Harbaughs azz is that they were doing it like a HURRY UP so the defenders even though the I eligibles were announced, had trouble relating that to the movement on the field & Vareen moving into the slot as in eligible.

Just typical satan Belichick pulling it out down by 14 & in a desperate situation calling for desperate measures.

I would not be shocked if this little wrinkle was figured out by Ernie Adams.

 

That's what makes it borderline.  Initially I figured it's gotta' be 100% on the refs for not knowing their jobs.  Having since learned that situations like this are supposed to be brought to the refs attention prior to the game puts it less on the refs and more on the Pats.  If the league sees a need to set up a meeting for a team to clue the refs in to any tricks and the Pats kept it to themselves then the league, at the very least should have outed the Pats for doing so after the game to go along with a small fine to expose them for cheating again.  However, since that is pure speculation and nobody knows what did or did not take place in the meetings, I'll say it was great work by NE.

[ghost_in_pads02]

You have to consider your personal intergrity too.  I'm a pretty honest guy...to a fault really.  If I lowered my standards and was willing to endorse lying/cheating/stealing then I wouldn't be happy with the type of person I'd become.   It is "just sports" but my attitude toward it can be a reflection of myself and my values.  I realize that there are a lot of people who would gladly have a cheater/rapist/murderer/pedophile on their team as long as they produced.  Me...not so much. 

 

I've had several arguments over the years with fellow Jets fans about players I wouldn't want on the team based on the kind of people we sometimes know them to be no matter how good they are.

 

Of course teams try to gain an edge.  Sometimes it's gamesmanship like reading somebody's lips or looking for a "tell" from a coach/player/organization and that's part of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

Once you start blatantly using illegal equipment you're getting in to an area where there's not something the opposition can do to prevent it and it becomes cheating.  That bothers me but I fully understand that we don't all share the same value/belief system and as I said earlier, I can't say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't do what many people do and change my beliefs if it meant cheering for a multi-super bowl winning team.

 

 

as i said before....professional sports is a different world from your real world.

 

 

if it wasnt..then we wouldn't have so some many espn's 30 for 30s....I didnt say i condone anyone breaking any rules....but like i said..spygate was how many years now..at some point you get over it

[AFJF]

as i said before....professional sports is a different world from your real world.

 

 

if it wasnt..then we wouldn't have so some many espn's 30 for 30s....I didnt say i condone anyone breaking any rules....but like i said..spygate was how many years now..at some point you get over it

 

I know that, but it doesn't mean I'm going to cheer for horrible human beings.  If you're a lowlife then you're a lowlife and I'm not going to use somebody's occupation as a reason to give them a pass.  But I also understand that most fans of most teams feel differently.  As long as you're good on the field, engage in any illegal activity you like as long as you don't get caught/suspended.

 

I think people will stop talking about the Pats cheating during their SB wins as soon as Pats fans stop talking about those SB wins.

[ghost_in_pads02]

I know that, but it doesn't mean I'm going to cheer for horrible human beings.  If you're a lowlife then you're a lowlife and I'm not going to use somebody's occupation as a reason to give them a pass.  But I also understand that most fans of most teams feel differently.  As long as you're good on the field, engage in any illegal activity you like as long as you don't get caught/suspended.

 

I think people will stop talking about the Pats cheating during their SB wins as soon as Pats fans stop talking about those SB wins.

why do Pats fans need to stop? There was nothing illegal about their SB wins..as much as other teams fans want to believe..NOTHING was ever proven

 

as i said originially spygate has been proven many times by other credible sources to not be as serious as rival fans make it out to be....as much as you dont want to admit it..

 

the bottom line is...the pats are legit successful franchise...you dont have to like it, but it is!

[AFJF]

why do Pats need to stop? There was nothing illegal about their SB wins..as much as other teams fans want to believe..NOTHING was ever proven

 

as i said originially spygate has been proven many times by other credible sources to not be as serious as rival fans make it out to be....as much as you dont want to admit it..

 

the bottom line is...the pats are legit successful franchise...you dont have to like it, but it is!

 

As I said earlier, I can't say I wouldn't tell myself the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot. 

[Cyberjet]

Bottom line the NFL banned the formation and didn't support and applaud the play.

[ghost_in_pads02]

Bottom line the NFL banned the formation and didn't support and applaud the play.

Ahh wouldn't u say too late. They already said when they did do it that it was legal right? So who cares if it's ban now. It was for that specific team for that specific time...don't need it no more.

Got out smarted

[JetsFanInDenver]

It's like the guy who had three wives before it was made illegal. Did not mean he was not a douchbag.

[Gainzo]

I listed these in another thread.

 

- tuck rule, used once and then never seen again.

- camera filming the other team sidelines crack down.

- Brady low hit QB rule  (not instituted until Brady got hurt, ignored when Carson Palmer got hurt)

- New eligibility rules due to pats shenanigans.

- New concussion protocol aka the Edelman rule.

- Soon to be new football handling rules due to deflate gate.

 

The rules committee has spent half their time over the ;last few years plugging pat loop holes or making new rules due to the pats bending the rules to the breaking point.

 

Tuck rule: Overturned a Vinny Testaverde "fumble" in Week 2 of the 2001 season in Foxboro

Camera: Yep. The Pats were so sneaky they had the camera guy on the sideline

Brady Low Hit Rule: Please see the Carson Palmer low hit in the 2006 playoffs to see when this rule was passed

New eligibility rules: The other 31 teams were butt-hurt that that Patriots used a legal play.....3 times in a game

Edelman: An NFL player has never taken a big hit and stayed in the game?

New football handling rules: I haven't seen the report

[PFSIKH]

watch the games skip, rub routes run properly are not pick plays, the 2nd wr cannot make contact with DB, pick plays involve the 2nd wr making contact.

 

Yeah, yeah yeah...they are all run properly except by the Patriots .

 

While there are some excuted properly, a good chunk of them are no more than pick plays.

[neckdemon]

Bottom line the NFL banned the formation and didn't support and applaud the play.

 

 

exactly. the league had to take the time to make an official rule banning the cheap tactics used.

[Jetster]

Tuck rule: Overturned a Vinny Testaverde "fumble" in Week 2 of the 2001 season in Foxboro

Camera: Yep. The Pats were so sneaky they had the camera guy on the sideline

Brady Low Hit Rule: Please see the Carson Palmer low hit in the 2006 playoffs to see when this rule was passed

New eligibility rules: The other 31 teams were butt-hurt that that Patriots used a legal play.....3 times in a game

Edelman: An NFL player has never taken a big hit and stayed in the game?

New football handling rules: I haven't seen the report

Regarding Edelman, CONSIDERING THEY WERE MUCH MORE SENSITIVE TO CONCUSSIONS THIS YEAR Edelman being allowed to go back into that game after CLEARLY being concussed.

He was stumbling around.

With the lawsuits going on & how sensitive the NFL is regarding them, Edelman staying in that game was a HUGE FAUX PAS.

Thus the new EDELMAN RULE!

[afosomf]

Tuck rule: Overturned a Vinny Testaverde "fumble" in Week 2 of the 2001 season in Foxboro

Camera: Yep. The Pats were so sneaky they had the camera guy on the sideline

Brady Low Hit Rule: Please see the Carson Palmer low hit in the 2006 playoffs to see when this rule was passed

New eligibility rules: The other 31 teams were butt-hurt that that Patriots used a legal play.....3 times in a game

Edelman: An NFL player has never taken a big hit and stayed in the game?

New football handling rules: I haven't seen the report

Cliff avril was removed from SB  JUles wasnt and should have