is Lebron the best player since MJ?

[Blackout]

where is Ecurb at?

[Blackout]

remember when he said the Cavs would be better than the Heat when Lebron left?  

[Blackout]

It has to be Duncan, hands down.

 

My ranking is since MJ:

 

1. Duncan

2. Shaq

3. Kobe

4. LeBron

 

LeBron cannot even be considered to move up on the list until he wins 2 more titles.  Duncan and Kobe have 5 titles while Shaq has 4.  I rank Shaq over Kobe because Shaq was the best player on the Lakers for 3 of Kobe's 5 championships.

 

lebron took this cast of misfit Cavs to within 2 games of a title

 

 

even if they lose 3 in a row what he did in the playoffs with this squad of CRAP is better than anything Kobe, Shaq or Duncan ever did with their teams of all stars and all-time great head coaches.  123 points in 3 finals games, most ever. 

 

 

imagine the Lakers without Gasol and Bynum...oh yeah, we saw that for 5 straight years after the Shaq trade and look what happened    besides, Kobe was a sidekick for 4 of his 7 finals and he was AWFUL against Boston and Detroit when he lost.  especially Boston, go look it up, AWFUL.

 

 

Duncan always had Robinson or Parker/Ginobli with him and the best coach of all time (besides Red)

 

 

Shaq had to do it all the first finals with the Lakers because Kobe choked multiple games and Rice was just as inconsistent but after that Kobe was good for 20+ ppg as a sidekick and the refs helped him out against the Kings in '02   

 

 

Lebron right now?  he's playing with a freakin rugby player as his sidekick who'd be the 10th man AT BEST on the Warriors

[Lizard King]

Jordan

Duncan

Kobe

LeBron

[JustInFudge]

Honestly cant say I've watched that many Warrior games this season, just highlights and few playoff games which isnt even that many of those because of how late they are but have they always been this bad or are they just playing really bad?  

 

They take the worst shots I've ever seen.  They have zero cohesion.  Literally no offense.  It's all perimeter dribbling with on ball screens.  Very little away from the ball action.  They finally started looking like the had any play making ability outside of the splash bros until Lee got into the game.    Do Thompson and Curry ever, I dont know, work together to help each other get better looks? Or have they just gunned at any little opening they see all season long?  And is Curry always this careless with the ball and out of control? 

 

I remember people talking about how great this team is...I dont see it.  And it has nothing to do with them being down in the series, even if they were up, I'd still say the dont look like a good team. 

[Jetsfan80]

They look completely different than they did all season long.  But then again Phil Jackson foresaw this when he was critical of teams that are overly dependent on jumpshots. 

[Lizard King]

The LeBron groupies are something else especially the media...game 1: "LeBron screwed because no bench", game 2: Dalavedova is money well spent for Cleveland

I don't remember any athlete in this convo other than him getting such fluff.

[Klecko73isGod]

You know why? And I love watching Lebron. But the dude quit on his team twice in the playoffs. Flat out quit. I'm sorry, but that's the real thing that can't be ignored. He never gets to live that down.

 

Why does Jordan get to live down never being able to beat Thomas' Pistons or Bird's Celtics? It wasn't until all those teams aged out that he started winning titles. 

 

That's why I've always argued for Magic. Guy led the Lakers to a title as a rookie. Jabbar was hurt in game 6. Magic played all five positions in that game - 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists - on the road no less, against a Sixers team with Dr. J in his prime.

[JustInFudge]

They look completely different than they did all season long.  But then again Phil Jackson foresaw this when he was critical of teams that are overly dependent on jumpshots. 

 

Not to take anything away from Cleveland's D, they've been phenomenal...but Golden State isnt exactly making it tough to defend.  Zero wrinkles.  Its the same predictable, terrible offense every possession.  Terrible shots with nobody in position.  Nobody challenging the offensive boards.  Never a single pass into the post.  It's literally perimeter screens sprinkled with dribble drives to kick it out to the 3 point line.  They dont even try to set up plays after time outs and I havent seen an inbounds play that they used to get any easy bucket, its basically, lets just avoid a 5 seconds.

 

They're shooting poorly, so I'm sure that part of the reason they looks so awful...but I just dont see anything in the DNA of this team that makes them special other than Curry is incredible and Thompson is knock down shooter.  

[JustInFudge]

Why does Jordan get to live down never being able to beat Thomas' Pistons or Bird's Celtics? It wasn't until all those teams aged out that he started winning titles. 

 

That's why I've always argued for Magic. Guy led the Lakers to a title as a rookie. Jabbar was hurt in game 6. Magic played all five positions in that game - 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists - on the road no less, against a Sixers team with Dr. J in his prime.

 

The Pistons team he beat was not aged out...they were in the midst of going for a 3 peat...and then Jordan went on to beat Magic after taking down the Pistons with ease.  And you know Magic and company lost to those Celtics teams too, right?

[Jetsfan80]

In his prime, Jordan went 6 for 6 in NBA titles.  You can't top that.

 

Why is it his fault the Magic/Bird era was winding down when he ascended?  He had zero control over that being the case.  As RJF said, LeBron has quit on teams in the playoffs.  That IS under his control, and something Jordan would never do.  Jordan's maniacal desire to win and ability to do so has not been duplicated.

[Matt39]

The LeBron groupies are something else especially the media...game 1: "LeBron screwed because no bench", game 2: Dalavedova is money well spent for Cleveland

I don't remember any athlete in this convo other than him getting such fluff.

 

Entertainment driven league...

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

The LeBron groupies are something else especially the media...game 1: "LeBron screwed because no bench", game 2: Dalavedova is money well spent for Cleveland

I don't remember any athlete in this convo other than him getting such fluff.

Says the guy who thinks Kobe is an athlete in this convo.

[Klecko73isGod]

The Pistons team he beat was not aged out...they were in the midst of going for a 3 peat...and then Jordan went on to beat Magic after taking down the Pistons with ease.  And you know Magic and company lost to those Celtics teams too, right?

 

A Magic Johnson who was on the wrong side of 30, three years removed from his last championship and playing with Vlade Divac in the middle instead of Kareem. So Magic had to age out for Jordan to win a title too. 

Magic lost to those Celtics teams when they were in their prime. He also beat them multiple times... for championships... or didn't you know that?

[Klecko73isGod]

In his prime, Jordan went 6 for 6 in NBA titles.  You can't top that.

 

Why is it his fault the Magic/Bird era was winding down when he ascended?  He had zero control over that being the case.  As RJF said, LeBron has quit on teams in the playoffs.  That IS under his control, and something Jordan would never do.  Jordan's maniacal desire to win and ability to do so has not been duplicated.

 

Meh... it made him seem like a joyless dickhead at times. The only athlete who seems to derive less joy from winning than Michael Jordan is Tom Brady. 

 

Give me Magic's enthusiasm and emotion any day. He was the single most enjoyable player to watch in history. 

[JustInFudge]

A Magic Johnson who was on the wrong side of 30, three years removed from his last championship and playing with Vlade Divac in the middle instead of Kareem. So Magic had to age out for Jordan to win a title too. 

Magic lost to those Celtics teams when they were in their prime. He also beat them multiple times... for championships... or didn't you know that?

 

Oh come'on...he still had Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Green, etc....that teams was really good...but thats wasnt even the point.

 

You knocked Jordan for losing those Celtics teams but dont knock Magic for it.  Yeah, Magic's teams beat those Celtics teams, but those Lakers teams were head and shoulders above the Bulls.  Not even close. 

[T0mShane]

Magic was fake as ****. It was gross how much he played to the cameras. Total douche.

[T0mShane]

I'm loving this version of LeBron, btw. Last night he was as close to that Jordan malevolence as I've ever seen him, and he made Klay and Curry look like the suburban fruit bags that they are.

[Klecko73isGod]

Oh come'on...he still had Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Green, etc....that teams was really good...but thats wasnt even the point.

 

You knocked Jordan for losing those Celtics teams but dont knock Magic for it.  Yeah, Magic's teams beat those Celtics teams, but those Lakers teams were head and shoulders above the Bulls.  Not even close. 

 

**** Michael Jordan! There. I said it. 

 

Michael Jordan caused me too much pain as a Knicks fan. I will never buy into the cult of Jordan. 

[JustInFudge]

**** Michael Jordan! There. I said it. 

 

Michael Jordan caused me too much pain as a Knicks fan. I will never buy into the cult of Jordan. 

 

The cult of Jordan?  Haha.  

[JustInFudge]

I'm loving this version of LeBron, btw. Last night he was as close to that Jordan malevolence as I've ever seen him, and he made Klay and Curry look like the suburban fruit bags that they are.

 

He sure did.  Maybe that's why they look like they dont give a ****?  They play with zero energy and no intensity.  I've never seen anything like it.  It's almost like they forgot they're playing for a title.   No emotion out of anyone on that team other than Greene.  Who's just awful.  Like, worthless awful.  Kerr is looking like a real penis the way Lee played last night looking like the only player on the court who cared.

 

LeBron is a lucky dude.  He timed his career perfectly.  The NBA is ******* terrible!

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

The biggest thing Jordan has going for him in this kind of argument is actually position. The statistical gap between him and whoever you consider the second-best shooting guard (hint: not Kobe) is comical. Magic led the league in wins produced four times to Jordan's one but his overall numbers aren't all that different from Stockton's.

[SMC]

The Warriors were always a high-turnover team, more so under Mark Jackson than Kerr, but they're reverting back to that.  Curry was always careless with the ball but his shooting stroke masks that.

 

Lee was their inside presence offensively in the past, but he got benched for Green's glue-guy act because the Splash Bros. went nuts this year and needed someone up front who could do the little things to get them more shots.  Now that the shots aren't falling the Warriors' offense is sputtering.

 

Also, the Cavs play like the more desperate team.

[JustInFudge]

The Warriors were always a high-turnover team, more so under Mark Jackson than Kerr, but they're reverting back to that.  Curry was always careless with the ball but his shooting stroke masks that.

 

Lee was their inside presence offensively in the past, but he got benched for Green's glue-guy act because the Splash Bros. went nuts this year and needed someone up front who could do the little things to get them more shots.  Now that the shots aren't falling the Warriors' offense is sputtering.

 

Also, the Cavs play like the more desperate team.

 

Thanks.  I honestly havent seen enough of them to know they had a turnover issue and that Curry was careless with the ball. He's extremely careless, IMO, and its not just him forcing stuff in traffic and his passing but his shot selection is god awful.  Trust me, as a gunner who can be known from time to time as black hole, I get pulling when you get even the slightest window to get a shot off but some of his shots are so incredibly stupid its astonishing.

 

Is that what Green is?  The glue-guy?   Because he is absolutely horrible and hard to watch.  He's erratic, cant defend, completely inefficient and is getting dominated by Tristan Thompson on the boards. 

 

And yes the energy/determination level on the Cavs vs. the Warriors is significant.  Its like watching a team playing with their hair on fire vs. a team smoking spliffs listening to Bob Marley.

[Blackout]

In his prime, Jordan went 6 for 6 in NBA titles.  You can't top that.

 

Why is it his fault the Magic/Bird era was winding down when he ascended?  He had zero control over that being the case.  As RJF said, LeBron has quit on teams in the playoffs.  That IS under his control, and something Jordan would never do.  Jordan's maniacal desire to win and ability to do so has not been duplicated.

 

in his prime he got owned by Bird and the Celtics 

[Lizard King]

Says the guy who thinks Kobe is an athlete in this convo.

You're a t \/\/@t

[drdetroit]

**** Michael Jordan! There. I said it. 

 

Michael Jordan caused me too much pain as a Knicks fan. I will never buy into the cult of Jordan. 

The amount of frontrunnerage in the 90's with Jordan was insane.  EVERYONE was a freaking Chicago Bulls fan.  It would be like if 80% of sports fans in the NY area were Patriots fans constantly talking sh*t about the Jets - that's what it felt like.

[drdetroit]

In his prime, Jordan went 6 for 6 in NBA titles.  You can't top that.

 

Why is it his fault the Magic/Bird era was winding down when he ascended?  He had zero control over that being the case.  As RJF said, LeBron has quit on teams in the playoffs.  That IS under his control, and something Jordan would never do.  Jordan's maniacal desire to win and ability to do so has not been duplicated.

Jordan never beat any great teams during that run.  Yes he can't control that but he did lose to those Bad Boys Pistons teams in the playoffs and lost to the Bird Celtics.

 

1991-1998 - his biggest competition was an overachieving New York Knicks team and the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams which were good but not all-time by a long shot. 

I still

[drdetroit]

They look completely different than they did all season long.  But then again Phil Jackson foresaw this when he was critical of teams that are overly dependent on jumpshots. 

That's a good point.  The warriors are way too dependent on screens and three-pointers.  Kerr developed a system - it worked great until now they're facing a Cavs team that's just way too physical and well-conditioned for them.  Plus they don't take wild shots - the warriors love to press in transition.

[Blackout]

Jordan never beat any great teams during that run.  Yes he can't control that but he did lose to those Bad Boys Pistons teams in the playoffs and lost to the Bird Celtics.

 

1991-1998 - his biggest competition was an overachieving New York Knicks team and the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams which were good but not all-time by a long shot. 

I still

 

 

MJ is just lucky he retired at the right time and avoided the Dream  

 

if they faced the rockets twice i see houston winning one of them at least

[SMC]

There was an interesting article using sabermetrics comparing LeBron's Finals' teams with MJ's as well as their opponents.  The conclusion was that, generally, LeBron has had worst teams in the Finals than MJ but faced better Finals opponents than MJ did.

 

For me, it's a different era and difficult to compare.

 

MJ didn't play in a no handchecking/pick-and-roll/3 points or nothing era and LeBron didn't play in a punch-you-in-the-nuts defensive era.

[drdetroit]

MJ is just lucky he retired at the right time and avoided the Dream

if they faced the rockets twice i see houston winning one of them at least

The 80's was the best level of competition the nba ever had. The leagues talent got diluted heavily in 1989 with 4 expansion teams and 2 more in 1995. MJ and the bulls benefited from that.

[SMC]

The 80's was the best level of competition the nba ever had. The leagues talent got diluted heavily in 1989 with 4 expansion teams and 2 more in 1995. MJ and the bulls benefited from that.

That's a good point on expansion.  There are 90 players in the NBA today that would not have had jobs in the 1980s because of the fewer teams. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

That's a good point on expansion. There are 90 players in the NBA today that would not have had jobs in the 1980s because of the fewer teams.

This is offset by the fact that there were 90 players in the league then that wouldn't have had jobs now even with expansion because they were just plain not good enough. This is as much a factor of the bigger pool today (think how many more kids played basketball twenty years ago as compared to forty) as the higher average level of athleticism.

[JustInFudge]

There was an interesting article using sabermetrics comparing LeBron's Finals' teams with MJ's as well as their opponents.  The conclusion was that, generally, LeBron has had worst teams in the Finals than MJ but faced better Finals opponents than MJ did.

 

For me, it's a different era and difficult to compare.

 

MJ didn't play in a no handchecking/pick-and-roll/3 points or nothing era and LeBron didn't play in a punch-you-in-the-nuts defensive era.

 

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with that.  Bron lost to a terrible Mavs team and a Spurs team who could have played in the Senior Citizen league.  And they should have lost twice as it took a miracle to beat them the year before.  And this all after he went to form a super squad and was still 2-2 in the finals.  This Warriors team is god awful.  That Thunder team was o.k. but werent ready for the finals and couldnt stack up against Miami's big 3.  

 

Jordan beat teams littered with HOF'ers in era where the league was competitive as hell.  Bron has dominated an Eastern Conference that sends below .500 teams to the playoffs, yearly.