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Looks like Goodell will hear the Brady appeal


Fed Hill Jet

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100% expected this based on how the Pats and Brady have conducted themselves throughout the process.  Remember Brady "laughing" on that radio show when they told him about the deflated balls being public knowledge?  Kraft demanding an apology from the league?  Saying they had no issue with the investigation until they didn't like the findings?  The Pats have slapped the league in the face at every turn.

 

Had they acted with a shred of dignity, commish would probably have granted their request for an independent arbitrator.  

 

Since they're being maniacal clowns, he probably wants to sit across from Brady and laugh at him when he tries to sell him a line of BS about deflation referring to weight loss.

 

Either way...Pats will win 12 games and the division, but they're just digging a deeper hole in terms of their organizational legacy.

 

I know that is the popular opinion but this year the AFC East has to play the NFC East and I think Philly, Dallas and the Giants can all beat the Patriots.  Not to mention the AFC East itself is a hell of a lot tougher.  I can easily see them losing 3 or 4 division games this year.  I am not going to predict records but I don't see them winning 12 games and might be hard pressed to win 11.   

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According to the delusional asshats on patsfans.com this is good news because then it goes to federal court. Is it even possible the courts have any jurisdiction here to overturn punishment given out by the league to a player or team?

No

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I am an attorney, though not a antitrust attorney or a litigator, so take this for what it's worth. My understanding is that the only way the courts got involved during the lockout was because the Union de-certified allowing the matter to be brought in federal court. I suppose there is a procedure for a team to bring an action (after all, Al Davis was notorious for doing it) but I am sure certain criteria need to be met for that suit to be brought. However, I cannot imagine a situation whereby they bring such an action that does not open Pandora's box for everything they have been trying to keep a secret since this process started. That's why I do not believe the threat of a law suit has any teeth because everyone knows they don't want anyone getting access to anything in that building.

So basically the only way it seems likely would be a situation where the pats sued the league claiming the punishment was illegal according to the terms of the current cba? So as long as Goodell and company are operating within the limits of the contract then this final hearing with Goodell as arbitrator should be the end right?

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Wow. The depths of your stupidity never ceases to amaze me. 

 

No one here is rooting FOR Goodell or Wells. 

 

Everyone is merely rooting against the Pats.  

 

Not even rooting so much against the Pats as they are rooting for fairness and balance in terms of how cheating franchises are dealt with.

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I am an attorney, though not a antitrust attorney or a litigator, so take this for what it's worth.  My understanding is that the only way the courts got involved during the lockout was because the Union de-certified allowing the matter to be brought in federal court.  I suppose there is a procedure for a team to bring an action (after all, Al Davis was notorious for doing it) but I am sure certain criteria need to be met for that suit to be brought.  However, I cannot imagine a situation whereby they bring such an action that does not open Pandora's box for everything they have been trying to keep a secret since this process started.  That's why I do not believe the threat of a law suit has any teeth because everyone knows they don't want anyone getting access to anything in that building.

 

Question for you as a lawyer... there's no way Brady sues, right? If I'm the NFL I have my lawyers working on a motion to subpoena Brady's phone records that I file with the court 5 seconds after being served by Brady's lawyers. 

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If that was the intent it would have been easier to declare that there was no smoking gun and ride out the expected wave of criticism.  What you are suggesting simply runs the risk of the whole thing spiraling out of control and results in a protracted front page story for weeks and months.

 

I think the punishment in this case is a very clear message from the majority of the other 31 owners to Robert Kraft that they are tired of his cheating organization and I think the Patriots are extremely unwise if they think that a scorched earth policy is going to win over those owners.  There are no good outcomes for the Patriots here but there are some outcome that are substantially worse than others.  I think the recent decision by the Pats has taken them a road which will inevitably lead to those outcomes regardless of whether or not the punishment is reduced.

 

Fun stuff.

 

Couldn't have happened to a bigger bunch of cheating scumbags or their low-IQ fan base. 

 

I do ultimately think this is true.  What we're seeing is what's really happening...

 

Kraft and the Pats have lost their minds because they're being called out on their BS and don't know how to react...and they're just imploding.  Based on the Wells report Goodell shouldn't lower the penalty at all..

 

But there's still that very skeptical side of me that wonders if Goodell and Kraft are still in cahoots...

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So basically the only way it seems likely would be a situation where the pats sued the league claiming the punishment was illegal according to the terms of the current cba? So as long as Goodell and company are operating within the limits of the contract then this final hearing with Goodell as arbitrator should be the end right?

That's my understanding and the NFL is clearly operating within the terms of the CBA.  That is why I find Goodell's actions to be key in this entire matter.  Even if Krapt hires a team of Denny Crane, Jackie Chiles, Johnnie Cochrane and F. Lee Bailey, I do not see what legitimate recourse they have.  Goodell, if he realizes this and I am sure he does, should simply rubber stamp this punishment.  Anything short of that would lead me to think that he and Krapt had some sort of side deal worked out.

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That's my understanding and the NFL is clearly operating within the terms of the CBA. That is why I find Goodell's actions to be key in this entire matter. Even if Krapt hires a team of Denny Crane, Jackie Chiles, Johnnie Cochrane and F. Lee Bailey, I do not see what legitimate recourse they have. Goodell, if he realizes this and I am sure he does, should simply rubber stamp this punishment. Anything short of that would lead me to think that he and Krapt had some sort of side deal worked out.

Agreed. I hope he doesn't cave in and that he does in fact uphold this punishment

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Question for you as a lawyer... there's no way Brady sues, right? If I'm the NFL I have my lawyers working on a motion to subpoena Brady's phone records that I file with the court 5 seconds after being served by Brady's lawyers. 

Absolutely NOT!  This is part of why that threat shows how delusional and angry they are in Foxboro.  They do NOT want anything to do with a legal discovery process.  On top of that, any witness testimony is taken under penalty of perjury.  Do you think anyone in that organization wants that hanging over his or her head?  Then it is not just Tommy Boy sitting out 4 games, it could be Tommy Boy and all his cronies sitting in a federal jail for perjuring themselves.  No matter who they hire, it will not change that fact. 

 

Maybe if that happens they could see if Hernandez could get a transfer to federal prison and they could have an awesome touch football team.  It would be a real life Longest Yard scenario with the "Genius" patrolling the sidelines.

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I do ultimately think this is true.  What we're seeing is what's really happening...

 

Kraft and the Pats have lost their minds because they're being called out on their BS and don't know how to react...and they're just imploding.  Based on the Wells report Goodell shouldn't lower the penalty at all..

 

But there's still that very skeptical side of me that wonders if Goodell and Kraft are still in cahoots...

Well said... that's the only thing that has me measured in my giddiness.  I am still loving it, but I'll love it more if the punishment is upheld - not just for punishment sake but because it will seal the deal that Goodell is no longer in cahoots with this scumbag.

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This is a prime example of how the super rich behave; just through enough money at a problem and it will go away.   Kraft truly seems to believe he is above it all.  Can't wait for reality to smash him in his smug little face. 

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That's my understanding and the NFL is clearly operating within the terms of the CBA.  That is why I find Goodell's actions to be key in this entire matter.  Even if Krapt hires a team of Denny Crane, Jackie Chiles, Johnnie Cochrane and F. Lee Bailey, I do not see what legitimate recourse they have.  Goodell, if he realizes this and I am sure he does, should simply rubber stamp this punishment.  Anything short of that would lead me to think that he and Krapt had some sort of side deal worked out.

 

But the appeal letter claims Goodell did not have the authority to delegate the assessing of punishments to Vincent. Is that right? IOW, does that action fall outside the CBA?

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I am an attorney, though not a antitrust attorney or a litigator, so take this for what it's worth.  My understanding is that the only way the courts got involved during the lockout was because the Union de-certified allowing the matter to be brought in federal court.  I suppose there is a procedure for a team to bring an action (after all, Al Davis was notorious for doing it) but I am sure certain criteria need to be met for that suit to be brought.  However, I cannot imagine a situation whereby they bring such an action that does not open Pandora's box for everything they have been trying to keep a secret since this process started.  That's why I do not believe the threat of a law suit has any teeth because everyone knows they don't want anyone getting access to anything in that building.

 

Exactly. They will huff and puff, but if they go to court the Deflator gets deposed, Brady gets deposed, the NFL could subpoena Brady's phone records and texts, probably Kraft's as well. Brady opens himself up to purjury charges. No way this goes to court. However, the hubris of Kraft is astounding and he may do it anyway and dig himself WAY deeper.

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But the appeal letter claims Goodell did not have the authority to delegate the assessing of punishments to Vincent. Is that right? IOW, does that action fall outside the CBA?

That I cannot say for sure, but smarter guys than me counsel NFL management and I can't imagine that they acted without knowing for sure that delegating that authority was outside the rules of the CBA.  I would hope that they crossed their T's and dotted their I's knowing that there would be significant scrutiny on their actions in this matter.

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Exactly. They will huff and puff, but if they go to court the Deflator gets deposed, Brady gets deposed, the NFL could subpoena Brady's phone records and texts, probably Kraft's as well. Brady opens himself up to purjury charges. No way this goes to court. However, the hubris of Kraft is astounding and he may do it anyway and dig himself WAY deeper.

I sincerely hope he takes is that far against his better judgment. 

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Does anyone think that the owners did not get a heads up about what was coming from Wells or that somehow this whole report and the punishment happened without the tacit support of at least some group of influential owners?

 

The Pats would be better served to have taken this for what it was, a warning shot across the bow.  Yet another warning shot albeit one with a bigger and closer splash factor.  Who do they think that they are likely to win over with their current strategy?  Joe public?  Roger Goodell? The other owners?  I am astonished quite frankly about the lack of forward thinking here.

 

Fun stuff.

 

Pass the popcorn.

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It seems the entire focus of the Brady team is on getting this matter into a more friendly venue. Jeff Kessler did this for years by getting cases to be heard by Judge Doty in Minneapolis who was friendly to the players and was known to rule favorably in their behalf. The strategy to do so is rather shotgun -- target every potential vulnerability, from questions of bias, proper evidence gathering, severity of penality, and proper authority of the adjudicators. The tactic of planning to call Vincent and Goodell as witnesses (to void Goodell's role as arbiter) would seem to me to be frivolous, as is much of the defense's argument, but it won't take much to stick for this to be conceded by Goodell to another party whom he will handpick -- which will then be challenged -- until someone favorable to the Union surfaces. Seems this could drag out for quite a while, even though the initial appeal is supposed to be in 10 days. 

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That I cannot say for sure, but smarter guys than me counsel NFL management and I can't imagine that they acted without knowing for sure that delegating that authority was outside the rules of the CBA.  I would hope that they crossed their T's and dotted their I's knowing that there would be significant scrutiny on their actions in this matter.

 

Do you really hope that?  I assume you are a Jet fan. If the appeal letter is correct, it's not good for the Jets.

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Do you really hope that?  I assume you are a Jet fan. If the appeal letter is correct, it's not good for the Jets.

 

I wonder if the delegation of authority, if it is indeed against the CBA, was done intentionally so as to get the Pats* off the hook.  Goodell wants to look as though he's tough on Kraft*, but then is able to have the punishment overturned on a technicality. 

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I wonder if the delegation of authority, if it is indeed against the CBA, was done intentionally so as to get the Pats* off the hook.  Goodell wants to look as though he's tough on Kraft*, but then is able to have the punishment overturned on a technicality. 

 

 

I don't understand why everyone is so paranoid and thinking that Goodell is secretly helping the Pats. Not everything is a conspiracy. It's like when people thinks games are fixed when there is a bad call late in the game. If the Refs wanted to rig a game they wouldn't wait until the last play of the game. Same thing here. If Goodell was really in the Pats corner he wouldn't have hired a guy like Wells in the first place and wouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand down such a harsh penalty. 

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I don't understand why everyone is so paranoid and thinking that Goodell is secretly helping the Pats. Not everything is a conspiracy. It's like when people thinks games are fixed when there is a bad call late in the game. If the Refs wanted to rig a game they wouldn't wait until the last play of the game. Same thing here. If Goodell was really in the Pats corner he wouldn't have hired a guy like Wells in the first place and wouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand down such a harsh penalty. 

 

If Goodell had done what you suggested, assuming he's in the Pats* corner, then he would have already been fired by the other owners.  The other owners have grown tired of the pro-Kraft*, pro-Patriot* stance by this commissioner.  There had to be an investigation into the cheating allegations otherwise we'd probably have Commissioner Rice in place already.

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I wonder if the delegation of authority, if it is indeed against the CBA, was done intentionally so as to get the Pats* off the hook.  Goodell wants to look as though he's tough on Kraft*, but then is able to have the punishment overturned on a technicality. 

 

Well, I said this in another thread about that kind of argument. But that would mean Goodell would be saying he got it wrong when he approved the punishments doled out by Vincent. And I doubt it would be suggested that Goodell didn't approve what Vincent did.

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Either way, he was going to look foolish, but there was only one way he'd get to look like he stuck up for what is right in the eyes of the public and the other 31 owners.  If he did things completely by the book, the punishment would just get thrown out by an "independent" arbitrator because that's generally what happens in those cases (or it would have been whittled down to 1 or 2 games).  If he ignored the whole thing completely, then the other owners would have fired him.  By going the ignorance of the bylaws route, he looks a bit foolish for mishandling the administration of discipline, but he still gets to look tough in the eyes of the public and the other 31 owners while still letting his good buddy off the hook at the same time.  It's really a win-win for him considering there's no outcome in which he wasn't going to look foolish.

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Do you really hope that?  I assume you are a Jet fan. If the appeal letter is correct, it's not good for the Jets.

I think you misunderstood me.  I am saying I would hope that Goodell and Co. made sure that everything they did was procedurally correct... not the Patriots.

 

My point is that I can't imagine Goodell, who is a lawyer himself, doing anything (knowing the scrutiny his actions would come under) that would jeopardize what they have done.

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Either way, he was going to look foolish, but there was only one way he'd get to look like he stuck up for what is right in the eyes of the public and the other 31 owners.  If he did things completely by the book, the punishment would just get thrown out by an "independent" arbitrator because that's generally what happens in those cases (or it would have been whittled down to 1 or 2 games).  If he ignored the whole thing completely, then the other owners would have fired him.  By going the ignorance of the bylaws route, he looks a bit foolish for mishandling the administration of discipline, but he still gets to look tough in the eyes of the public and the other 31 owners while still letting his good buddy off the hook at the same time.  It's really a win-win for him considering there's no outcome in which he wasn't going to look foolish.

 

I am under the impression that those who have suggested that Goodell used Vincent as a ploy to let him appoint himself the arbitrator are right. And it wasn't so he could help out his old bud Kraft, but to ensure the punishment wouldn't be changed as in the prior cases, giving him egg on his face for the 3rd time. I think Goodell is willing to take his chances that the Pats won't be stupid enough to bring this to court, which will be their only recourse if they don't like Goodell's arbitration decision..

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I think you misunderstood me.  I am saying I would hope that Goodell and Co. made sure that everything they did was procedurally correct... not the Patriots.

 

My point is that I can't imagine Goodell, who is a lawyer himself, doing anything (knowing the scrutiny his actions would come under) that would jeopardize what they have done.

 

I stand corrected.

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But the problem there is in whether or not it was legal for him to hand things off to Vincent in the first place.

I understand and I do not know the answer, but like I said, I can't imagine they did not make sure they were correct in how they handled this procedurally because they obviously knew Krapt and his cronies would fight it.  To simply delegate without knowledge of whether that was allowable under the CBA would be enough to fire him from his $43M a year job.

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I think that would open the door for a very favorable case for the Pats* in court, however.  At that point, the onus wouldn't be on them to prove their innocence or not, it would be on them to prove that Goodell acted illegally.  They could get the whole thing thrown out without having to even address their innocence or guilt, but rather just simply prove that Goodell overstepped his bounds by not following the CBA.

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I think that would open the door for a very favorable case for the Pats* in court, however.  At that point, the onus wouldn't be on them to prove their innocence or not, it would be on them to prove that Goodell acted illegally.  They could get the whole thing thrown out without having to even address their innocence or guilt, but rather just simply prove that Goodell overstepped his bounds by not following the CBA.

 

Not so sure about that. With the right lawyers representing the league, I am sure they will find a way to get all the evidence into the proceedings.

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I think that would mean that the league would have to file a separate lawsuit.  Brady and/or the Pats' lawsuit would be very narrowly focused on Goodel not following the letter of the CBA.  Deflategate would probably be off-topic with regards to the arguments that Brady and/or the Pats' lawyers would present.

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I think you misunderstood me. I am saying I would hope that Goodell and Co. made sure that everything they did was procedurally correct... not the Patriots.

My point is that I can't imagine Goodell, who is a lawyer himself, doing anything (knowing the scrutiny his actions would come under) that would jeopardize what they have done.

Goodell isn't a lawyer.

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I think you misunderstood me.  I am saying I would hope that Goodell and Co. made sure that everything they did was procedurally correct... not the Patriots.

 

My point is that I can't imagine Goodell, who is a lawyer himself, doing anything (knowing the scrutiny his actions would come under) that would jeopardize what they have done.

 

Goodell is not a lawyer.  It doesn't say much about the personality of lawyers that so many people think that he is.  :)

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