Jets GM Mike Maccagnan: Success doesn't hinge on making playoffs

[greenwichjetfan]

The Jets are not a young and up and coming team like the Jags. We are in a win now mode. I have no idea what the hell is going on here?!?

 

In fact one could argue that the Dolphins and Patriots have superior younger talent to us.

Our best/core/most expensive (present and future) players coming into this year:

Offense: Mangold, DBrick, Chris Ivory, BMarsh, Decker
Defense: Revis, Cro, Sheldon, Mo, Harris

Aside from Sheldon and Mo, what do they all have in common? All of them are either currently at or already past the peak of their prime years, and all have the potential to be gone sometime between now and two years from now due to their contract structure. This is a team that people believed was such a win-now team before the season began, that they (we) clamored for the Jets to go out and acquire Brees or Rivers - even at this point in their careers. 

Between the $150m secondary, 4 first rounders on the DL, a true WR1, an elite WR2, a true RB1, and Fitzy playing better than most would have predicted, we absolutely should measure this team's success or failure based on whether or not they make the playoffs. Especially in a watered down AFC conference, playing a last-place schedule, and getting off to a 4-1 start. 

Also, make no mistake: the Jets see this as playoffs or bust as well- regardless of what Mac says to the papers. They've stuck with a 32 year old journeyman QB strictly to win now, whereas they could have handed the reigns over to Geno or Petty to see what their future could potentially look like. 

[rillo]

 

Making the playoffs doesn't matter if we aren't capable of winning a playoff game so I don't see the difference between 8 wins and 9 for this team from a standpoint of heading in the right direction, optimism for next year, etc.

SAR I

Basically. 

[Integrity28]

I didn't say the wins are discredited. I even noted we won them (we didn't lose). I do attest that they aren't as impressive when they are notably qualified. I doubt you'd suggest that beating Cleveland is the same measuring stick as beating New England, or that beating Indy with a healthy Andrew Luck and a healthy secondary is not the same feat as if they're all ready to play. I also don't accept that Buffalo was in Rex revenge mode because the players have nothing to avenge, and Rex doesn't play on the field (whether he's aware of this or not). 

It wasn't a shot at you, so relax. It just adds up to us being a bit of a paper tiger (at least so far). Frankly one of the better games we played was the loss to NE, and I do wonder what the result would have been if NE's backup OL wasn't allowed to hold at will all game long, or commit obvious PI in the endzone. 

The qualifiers you used suggest that the wins were all the by-product of circumstances that should take away from the pure and simple fact that we won the games. You didn't have to say it outright. 

I didn't take anything you said as a shot at me, and I'm not even sure what in my response would suggest I did. I responded purely to what you wrote. I called the qualifiers stupid, because I think qualifying wins and losses is generally stupid - did you take my use of the word "stupid" to mean that my butt was hurt?

It's not.

Sperm, you can't hurt my butt. 

[afosomf]

I was always told that if the Jets were still alive during the 1st week of Dec then it was a successful season, some people have very small expectations 

[Sperm Edwards]

The qualifiers you used suggest that the wins were all the by-product of circumstances that should take away from the pure and simple fact that we won the games. You didn't have to say it outright. 

I didn't take anything you said as a shot at me, and I'm not even sure what in my response would suggest I did. I responded purely to what you wrote. I called the qualifiers stupid, because I think qualifying wins and losses is generally stupid - did you take my use of the word "stupid" to mean that my butt was hurt?

It's not.

Sperm, you can't hurt my butt. 

The wins count just as much, but beating bad and beaten up teams is just not as impressive as beating teams that aren't beaten up and/or are doing well. It's a reflection of how good a team (and coaching) we have, beyond just a W/L record. 

[#27TheDominator]

I am so ******* sick of hearing that the Jets are in "win now" mode.  They are not.  Yeah, they blew last year and signed some older players.  Big ******* deal.  The malcontent WR is the only one they would have any trouble replacing. They sucked balls and signed the best players they could.  This is not a team to go all in with.  Yes, they are not young enough that you can jump up and down about them being up and coming, but the GM seems to have a handle on how to proceed.  You "win now" dudes all sound like you are screaming for Tannenbaum and I think there were only three of us that didn't want him hung at dawn..

[UnitedWhofans]

Our best/core/most expensive (present and future) players coming into this year:

Offense: Mangold, DBrick, Chris Ivory, BMarsh, Decker
Defense: Revis, Cro, Sheldon, Mo, Harris

Aside from Sheldon and Mo, what do they all have in common? All of them are either currently at or already past the peak of their prime years, and all have the potential to be gone sometime between now and two years from now due to their contract structure. This is a team that people believed was such a win-now team before the season began, that they (we) clamored for the Jets to go out and acquire Brees or Rivers - even at this point in their careers. 

Between the $150m secondary, 4 first rounders on the DL, a true WR1, an elite WR2, a true RB1, and Fitzy playing better than most would have predicted, we absolutely should measure this team's success or failure based on whether or not they make the playoffs. Especially in a watered down AFC conference, playing a last-place schedule, and getting off to a 4-1 start. 

Also, make no mistake: the Jets see this as playoffs or bust as well- regardless of what Mac says to the papers. They've stuck with a 32 year old journeyman QB strictly to win now, whereas they could have handed the reigns over to Geno or Petty to see what their future could potentially look like. 

You know why they signed those guys? Because the fans would not accept a proper rebuilding job. They'd run him out of town before it was done. So he signed some veteran players in order to buy some years so that he can properly draft some young talent. It's actually genius. And because of the way that he structured their contracts, they will be off the books next year and the year after when they can be replaced by younger talent. Idzik went right for the rebuild and it blew up in his face.  Mac is doing it differently

[ZachEY]

You know what's a failure... That we went 4-12 last year and Amari Cooper is not a Jet but we have another defensive lineman who doesn't get to the QB but is pretty good at stopping the run.

[Integrity28]

The wins count just as much, but beating bad and beaten up teams is just not as impressive as beating teams that aren't beaten up and/or are doing well. It's a reflection of how good a team (and coaching) we have, beyond just a W/L record. 

Meh, I liken qualifying wins like this to losing games but crying out "we played them tough".  I also liken it to the "we should beat this team because ..." mentality. I'm guilty of both at times, but still don't put too much stock in it. It's mostly an emotional exercise that fans go through. 

Football is football... one week you could spank a contender, the next week you could fall on your face to a scrub team. Sometimes it's skill, other times it's luck, or chemistry, or injuries, or even cheating. It's nice to have a sense for what to expect, based on prior results, and in that regard I like to look back at what we've done and the circumstances we've done it in... but saying "we beat Cleveland, but because they had to plug Manziel in" is just a way of putting a negative spin on wins.

It's okay that we don't agree. 

[faba]

I am so ******* sick of hearing that the Jets are in "win now" mode.  They are not.  Yeah, they blew last year and signed some older players.  Big ******* deal.  The malcontent WR is the only one they would have any trouble replacing. They sucked balls and signed the best players they could.  This is not a team to go all in with.  Yes, they are not young enough that you can jump up and down about them being up and coming, but the GM seems to have a handle on how to proceed.  You "win now" dudes all sound like you were screaming for Tannenbaum and I think there were only three of us that didn't want him hung at dawn..

I do not know how anyone would say we were all in to win it all- Denver was that type of team with manning on his last legs. we were hopefully to start to rebuild this team- takes more than one year to do that if we are going to be successful

[BowlesMovement]

You know what's a failure... That we went 4-12 last year and Amari Cooper is not a Jet but we have another defensive lineman who doesn't get to the QB but is pretty good at stopping the run.

But we won two for the Gipper, does that count for anything? That seemed to make a ton of Rex fans very happy.

[ZachEY]

But we won two for the Gipper, does that count for anything? That seemed to make a ton of Rex fans very happy.

Be nice, to just once, be in a position to draft the talented player we need.

[BowlesMovement]

Be nice, to just once, be in a position to draft the talented player we need.

sure would. The year before we lost out on OBJ for the same reason.

[UnitedWhofans]

Be nice, to just once, be in a position to draft the talented player we need.

so you believe in tanking?

[ZachEY]

sure would. The year before we lost out on OBJ for the same reason.

The New York Jets... Just good enough to never get better.

[UnitedWhofans]

sure would. The year before we lost out on OBJ for the same reason.

if they wanted obj bad enough they would have traded for him

[BowlesMovement]

The New York Jets... Just good enough to never get better.

Pretty much sums it up from 1999 on

[BowlesMovement]

if they wanted obj bad enough they would have traded for him

If we had a competent GM, we may have done that. But we had a completely incompetent GM, because he was the only one who would take the job thanks to Woody's stipulation that Rex stays. YAY US!

[UnitedWhofans]

Pretty much sums it up from 1999 on

Yes because the era before was so much better

[ZachEY]

so you believe in tanking?

On 12/30/2007, the 3 win New York Jets beat the Kansas City Chiefs to end the season 4-12.

On 4/26/2008, the New York Jets drafted DE/OLB Vernon Gholston, the Ohio State University, this occurred roughly 30 minutes after the 4-12 Atlanta Falcons drafted QB Matt Ryan.

Was 12/30/2007 worth it?

[BowlesMovement]

On 12/30/2007, the 3 win New York Jets beat the Kansas City Chiefs to end the season 4-12.

On 4/26/2008, the New York Jets drafted DE/OLB Vernon Gholston, the Ohio State University, this occurred roughly 30 minutes after the 4-12 Atlanta Falcons drafted QB Matt Ryan.

Was 12/30/2007 worth it?

Response to end all responses.

[greenwichjetfan]

This team has playoff level talent because Macc did a great job during the offseason (I'll turn a blind eye to the $8m mistake that is Cro's alimony). Then, the season began 4-1. 

A 4-1 start, coupled with the talent that Macc put together on this team, must result in playoffs. Not necessarily a super bowl. Simply the opportunity to get there by making it into the tourney. That's it. Anything short of that, is absolutely a failure.

To treat it otherwise is to be either disingenuous, or borderline moron. 

[greenwichjetfan]

Be nice, to just once, be in a position to draft the talented player we need.

Derek Carr went after the Jets picked in 2013. 

[BowlesMovement]

This team has playoff level talent because Macc did a great job during the offseason (I'll turn a blind eye to the $8m mistake that is Cro's alimony). Then, the season began 4-1. 

A 4-1 start, coupled with the talent that Macc put together on this team, must result in playoffs. Not necessarily a super bowl. Simply the opportunity to get there by making it into the tourney. That's it. Anything short of that, is absolutely a failure.

To treat it otherwise is to be either disingenuous, or borderline moron. 

The team still has absolutely no depth whatsoever, and its showing big time. There are some key injuries in some key spots, and the replacements are not even NFL calibur backups, or, guys are playing hurt because of the lack of depth. Its not a good thing, and plays into the talent level of the team. The last 3 drafts (prior to this last one) have been abysmal,  a few free agent signings cannot overcome that by itself. Its going to take time to build this roster into something competitive.

[ZachEY]

Derek Carr went after the Jets picked in 2013. 

Would have been nice.  And mistakes happen.  But, I also don't think anyone was calling for Carr at 18 at the time.  But, I'm talking more about top end prospects/talent.

[greenwichjetfan]

On 12/30/2007, the 3 win New York Jets beat the Kansas City Chiefs to end the season 4-12.

On 4/26/2008, the New York Jets drafted DE/OLB Vernon Gholston, the Ohio State University, this occurred roughly 30 minutes after the 4-12 Atlanta Falcons drafted QB Matt Ryan.

Was 12/30/2007 worth it?

Yes. It saved us from possibly the most overrated QB player in the NFL.

[UnitedWhofans]

 On 12/30/2007, the 3 win New York Jets beat the Kansas City Chiefs to end the season 4-12.

On 4/26/2008, the New York Jets drafted DE/OLB Vernon Gholston, the Ohio State University, this occurred roughly 30 minutes after the 4-12 Atlanta Falcons drafted QB Matt Ryan.

Was 12/30/2007 worth it?

Yes Matt Ryan. 1 NFC title game. Jets went to two in same time frame. Jets have been better off

[BowlesMovement]

Yes. It saved us from possibly the most overrated QB player in the NFL.

As overrated as Ryan is, he is far better than anything we have trotted out since Testaverde for a few years at the end of his career, and I do think Ryan is overrated as well.

[greenwichjetfan]

The team still has absolutely no depth whatsoever, and its showing big time. There are some key injuries in some key spots, and the replacements are not even NFL calibur backups, or, guys are playing hurt because of the lack of depth. Its not a good thing, and plays into the talent level of the team. The last 3 drafts (prior to this last one) have been abysmal,  a few free agent signings cannot overcome that by itself. Its going to take time to build this roster into something competitive.

So you're saying this team does not have playoff caliber talent, especially after starting 4-1 and playing a last place schedule in a completely watered down AFC conference?

[ZachEY]

Yes. It saved us from possibly the most overrated QB player in the NFL.

So, the Jets are better off today with Gholston and Favre->Sanchez->Geno->Fitz with still no stable answer at the position than just having Matt Ryan starting against the Texans this Sunday?

[BowlesMovement]

So you're saying this team does not have playoff caliber talent, especially after starting 4-1 and playing a last place schedule in a completely watered down AFC conference?

I think when they are completely healthy, they have enough talent to make the playoffs. I think if you take into account a few injuries, and the lack of depth, they become a team that looks more like a 7 or 8 win team. Marshall is playing with a ton of injruies and lost his explosivness, we lost our starting Guard, Mangold has been injured, we have had injuries on the secondary, and our really good RB has been injured. With nobody to fill in for those guys, we are not that good.

[ZachEY]

Yes Matt Ryan. 1 NFC title game. Jets went to two in same time frame. Jets have been better off

Peyton Manning 1 Super Bowl.

Joe Flacco 1 Super Bowl.

Trent Dilfer 1 Super Bowl.

Brad Johnson 1 Super Bowl.

Same players.

[greenwichjetfan]

So, the Jets are better off today with Gholston and Favre->Sanchez->Geno->Fitz with still no stable answer at the position than just having Matt Ryan starting against the Texans this Sunday?

Of course not. That's not what we're arguing though. You asked simply, was that win worth it. And, as you also said above, mistakes happen. I can sit here and name possibly two to three players in each draft since that one where we were in position to get a star and didn't because we suck at drafting. So whether we won that game or not, there's no guarantee that we would have picked Matt Ryan.

And additionally, Matt Ryan is simply not a star QB, and the opportunity cost of passing on him to potentially try and get someone else in the next few drafts is fine by me.

The only two time's I'd agree with you that tanking would have been great in the 20 years since I've really followed football would have been for the two most sure-fire prospects to come out since Elway: Peyton and Luck. 

[greenwichjetfan]

I think when they are completely healthy, they have enough talent to make the playoffs. I think if you take into account a few injuries, and the lack of depth, they become a team that looks more like a 7 or 8 win team. Marshall is playing with a ton of injruies and lost his explosivness, we lost our starting Guard, Mangold has been injured, we have had injuries on the secondary, and our really good RB has been injured. With nobody to fill in for those guys, we are not that good.

There you go. That's what the point of this thread was, and that's what the point of all of my posts have been. 

You can make excuses for anything under the sun, and FYI, the Jets are not the only team dealing with injuries. GB lost Jordy before a single significant snap was taken, and they're 6-3 headed to the playoffs. "Ohh but they have Aaron Rogers." Fine: KC started 1-5, lost Jamaal Charles, and looks primed to take a WC. With Alex Smith at QB. Meanwhile, our most significant injury has been losing Mangold for 1.5 games. This is a game of attrition. It's not new. No team in the NFL has depth at every position.

So when you start a season with playoff caliber talent, go 4-1 playing a last place schedule in a watered down AFC, you need to make the playoffs. Anything less is a failed season. 

[ZachEY]

Of course not. That's not what we're arguing though. You asked simply, was that win worth it. And, as you also said above, mistakes happen. I can sit here and name possibly two to three players in each draft since that one where we were in position to get a star and didn't because we suck at drafting. So whether we won that game or not, there's no guarantee that we would have picked Matt Ryan.

And additionally, Matt Ryan is simply not a star QB, and the opportunity cost of passing on him to potentially try and get someone else in the next few drafts is fine by me.

The only two time's I'd agree with you that tanking would have been great in the 20 years since I've really followed football would have been for the two most sure-fire prospects to come out since Elway: Peyton and Luck. 

But the David Carr mistake is not an equivalent, as he wasn't projected to go anywhere near where we were picking.  You're talking about hindsight.  Tom Brady being drafted #1 overall type hindsight.

I'm talking about being in a position to draft a good player, which Ryan is, at an important position of need.  Instead, due to a completely meaningless win, we wind up with a player who's not nearly as good (hindsight) but also not projected or as valuable a player for us (not hindsight).  Of course we don't *know* that the team would have taken them, but I'd have rather been in the position to have that option (Ryan, OBJ, Cooper) than stuck picking from the leftovers including Gholston, Pryor, Williams (the latter who may be great one day, but isn't now, and was a luxury pick for a team without that luxury).