Is B Marshall in the conversation for the best receiver in the NFL in 2015

[k-met57]

i know Antonio Brown is a stud, but he did little without big Ben.

Marshall through 13 games: 89 catches, 1187 yards, 11TD's

Top 3? Top 5?

 

Best move of the offseason, Revis, Fitz and Williams included.

[BallinPB]

Between Odell and Brown.  Marshall is definitely top 5 though.

[k-met57]

everyone assumed that any receiver that came here would flop...marshall showing to be the kind of receiver that can pick up a QB, as opposed to the kind that will flop because of one.

[Jetdawgg]

Marshall is the Jets MVP

[Long Island Leprechaun]

top five. What's great is that Decker is also a stud -- top 20 guy. Great duo.

[nj meadowlands]

for 2015, Odell, Julio, Antonio Brown are the top 3...  i'd put Hopkins and AJ as the other 2 in the top 5.  Marshall would probably be 6th. Hardly a knock on BMarsh - he's a freak.

[Matt39]

I do not like him but Beckham is the best right now.

[BroadwayJoe12]

No. No he is not. Not sure I would even consider him for top 10. Decker is having a better season than Marshall.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

No. No he is not. Not sure I would even consider him for top 10. Decker is having a better season than Marshall.

Either you're trying to promote an extremely subtle joke, or you're a complete idiot. I'm guessing you're not a humorist.

[BroadwayJoe12]

I do not like him but Beckham is the best right now.

I dunno, Antonio Brown has him in every single category besides touchdowns, which are notoriously impossible to predict. To each their own though, Beckham is pretty ridiculous.   

[BroadwayJoe12]

Either you're trying to promote an extremely subtle joke, or you're a complete idiot. I'm guessing you're not a humorist.

Decker: DYAR 8th, DVOA 15th 

Marshall: DYAR 17th, DVOA 33rd

 

I love Marshall, the same way that I absolutely love Julio Jones, but they just aren't having top 5 or top 10 seasons. There's a lot of really, really good wide receivers out there. 

 

[RutgersJetFan]

Weird year for WRs. I'd give it to Fitzgerald, but I'm partial to him because he's handsome and in his mid-30s and our ilk has to stick together. IMO you can take your pick of about 6 or 7 guys this year as having the best year, IMO Marshall is definitely not on that list but that certainly doesn't take away the impact he's had on the offense.

[RutgersJetFan]

Decker: DYAR 8th, DVOA 15th 

Marshall: DYAR 17th, DVOA 33rd

 

I love Marshall, the same way that I absolutely love Julio Jones, but they just aren't having top 5 or top 10 seasons. There's a lot of really, really good wide receivers out there. 

 

Yeah, Marshall's had a bunch of really boneheaded plays over the year and that drags his numbers down. But then again if he wasn't prone to that type of sh*t he probably wouldn't even be on the Jets right now anyways.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

Decker: DYAR 8th, DVOA 15th 

Marshall: DYAR 17th, DVOA 33rd

 

I love Marshall, the same way that I absolutely love Julio Jones, but they just aren't having top 5 or top 10 seasons. There's a lot of really, really good wide receivers out there. 

 

Give me a break. So you'd take Joe Brown over Antonio Brown or Odell Beckham r Julio Jones, not to mention Marshall, based on these stats? I don't think so. Marshall has been double teamed consistently and still has put up monster numbers... not to mention being a force in the red zone. Not to take away from Decker who has also been a great red zone receiver, but Marshall has been better. FO assessment of WR is probably the least valuable crunch there is, by their own admission. Not to mention the plain old eye test.

[Matt39]

Decker: DYAR 8th, DVOA 15th 

Marshall: DYAR 17th, DVOA 33rd

 

I love Marshall, the same way that I absolutely love Julio Jones, but they just aren't having top 5 or top 10 seasons. There's a lot of really, really good wide receivers out there. 

 

DVOA seem to vary like crazy year to year for wide outs. Cobb finished first last year and you cant find him this year. With the amount of usage Marshall gets he's been pretty ridiculous. Easily the best WR we've had here in my lifetime.

[Joe W. Namath]

Marshall is top 5.  Too many dropped passes this year to get into top 3.

[RutgersJetFan]

 FO assessment of WR is probably the least valuable crunch there is, by their own admission.

Link?

[The Crusher]

Weird year for WRs. I'd give it to Fitzgerald, but I'm partial to him because he's handsome and in his mid-30s and our ilk has to stick together. IMO you can take your pick of about 6 or 7 guys this year as having the best year, IMO Marshall is definitely not on that list but that certainly doesn't take away the impact he's had on the offense.

Certainly fair.  I officially just so excited to have a big bad wide receiver of our own.  A true number one.  Don't care if he is the best.  He is a bad ass and that's good enough for me. I would replace Devin Smith with OBJ if anybody cares.  

[The Crusher]

Link?

Sausage.  So nice to see the word association thread making a comeback.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

Link?

Read their own write-up. Much is left out of the equation, as they note in their explanation. If you read it, you wouldn't be asking.

[BroadwayJoe12]

DVOA seem to vary like crazy year to year for wide outs. Cobb finished first last year and you cant find him this year. With the amount of usage Marshall gets he's been pretty ridiculous. Easily the best WR we've had here in my lifetime.

I think the variation in year to year shows you how much the WRs vary from year to year and any of those guys that are consistently top ten are truly the greats. I love Marshall and that's what always gets lost in these conversations, that just because I don't think he's having a top 10 season doesn't mean that I am not beyond ecstatic that he's on the team.  

[detectivekimble]

As far as production goes, top five.  The Marshall-Decker duo is top three in the league.  

[BroadwayJoe12]

Give me a break. So you'd take Joe Brown over Antonio Brown or Odell Beckham r Julio Jones, not to mention Marshall, based on these stats? I don't think so. Marshall has been double teamed consistently and still has put up monster numbers... not to mention being a force in the red zone. Not to take away from Decker who has also been a great red zone receiver, but Marshall has been better. FO assessment of WR is probably the least valuable crunch there is, by their own admission. Not to mention the plain old eye test.

I'm assuming you mean John Brown. No, I would not prefer him over Antonio Brown or ODB. I was simply stating who's having a top 10 season this year, not who has the most physical ability or who I'd want most on my team, those were not the questions of the OP.  They take into account double teams. FO assessment of a WR is probably the best that I have seen. The obvious exception of course, is the eye test. The eye test always trumps everything. 

[RutgersJetFan]

Read their own write-up. Much is left out of the equation, as they note in their explanation. If you read it, you wouldn't be asking.

I've read it quite a few times. I don't recall that part. It's certainly possible that I either missed it or forgot about it and was wondering if you knew the specific reference.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Yeah, Marshall's had a bunch of really boneheaded plays over the year and that drags his numbers down. But then again if he wasn't prone to that type of sh*t he probably wouldn't even be on the Jets right now anyways.

Agreed. Marshall is deserving of a top 20 season and he's been a huge reason our offense is playing the best it has in years, but we've all seen him drop easy, crucial third down receptions, at least three guaranteed touchdowns and the few fumbles as well. All in all, he and Decker are putting together two of the best seasons that I've seen a WR have in the green and white, so I'm beyond happy over it.  I think that's the problem you run when you don't fellate your own players, others assume you're an idiot or not a real fan.  Why can't I be both an idiot and a real fan. 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

I'm assuming you mean John Brown. No, I would not prefer him over Antonio Brown or ODB. I was simply stating who's having a top 10 season this year, not who has the most physical ability or who I'd want most on my team, those were not the questions of the OP.  They take into account double teams. FO assessment of a WR is probably the best that I have seen. The obvious exception of course, is the eye test. The eye test always trumps everything. 

I was talking about this year, when John Brown is rated #1 on the FO list. They don't take into account a number of factors, as they point out. There have been games where Marshall has drawn double teams and freed Decker as the primary target. DYAR and DVOA don't capture that effect at all. While we all know that Marshall committed a couple of bone-headed plays, his overall performance has been more important to the Jets offense than Decker's. I love the combination of Marshall and Decker and see Decker finally being used properly as a legit #2 receiver, which is precisely how the Jets have played him. Bottom line: if you had to get rid of Marshall or Decker this year, who would you give up? I'd let Decker go. I assume you'd let Marshall go because you really believe that Decker is a better #1. You'd have to if you buy into the FO analysis.

DYAR and DVOA include all passes intended for the receiver, both complete and incomplete. Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this.

• We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other.
• These statistics measure only passes thrown to a receiver, not performance on plays when he is not thrown the ball, such as blocking and drawing double teams.
• All fumbles are considered equal, whether recovered by the offense or defense.
• DPI lists the number of plays and yards where the receiver drew Defensive Pass Interference. These plays are incorporated into DVOA and DYAR, but are not included in the totals for Passes or Yards.

[RutgersJetFan]

I was talking about this year, when John Brown is rated #1 on the FO list. They don't take into account a number of factors, as they point out. There have been games where Marshall has drawn double teams and freed Decker as the primary target. DYAR and DVOA don't capture that effect at all. While we all know that Marshall committed a couple of bone-headed plays, his overall performance has been more important to the Jets offense than Decker's. I love the combination of Marshall and Decker and see Decker finally being used properly as a legit #2 receiver, which is precisely how the Jets have played him. Bottom line: if you had to get rid of Marshall or Decker this year, who would you give up? I'd let Decker go. I assume you'd let Marshall go because you really believe that Decker is a better #1. You'd have to if you buy into the FO analysis.

DYAR and DVOA include all passes intended for the receiver, both complete and incomplete. Catch Rate represents the percentage of passes to this receiver completed. This is a reference to incomplete passes, not dropped passes: dropped passes are not specified in publicly available play-by-play, and unfortunately we cannot yet correct for this.

• We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other.
• These statistics measure only passes thrown to a receiver, not performance on plays when he is not thrown the ball, such as blocking and drawing double teams.
• All fumbles are considered equal, whether recovered by the offense or defense.
• DPI lists the number of plays and yards where the receiver drew Defensive Pass Interference. These plays are incorporated into DVOA and DYAR, but are not included in the totals for Passes or Yards.

Yeah. So this is right off the basic summary and nowhere does it say that WR metrics are their least valuable. Do you have the reference where they say that specifically? 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

Yeah. So this is right off the basic summary and nowhere does it say that WR metrics are their least valuable. Do you have the reference where they say that specifically? 

It seemed apparent to me based on their equivocations about what they can't measure, not to mention what they don't consider -- how a receiver is used, who that receiver is paired with, or not. How do you measure Beckham's worth as essentially the sole quality target on the Giants vs. Fitzgerald with John Brown, for example. The dynamic is entirely different. How do you assess a possession or slot receiver vs. a vertical receiver? For example, does the slot lend itself to higher catch % by virtue of the routes that are run and the altered coverage. What about red zone value? What about impact of receiver who takes double teams to free other receivers? etc. etc. It's a lousy stat, frankly. If we were talking baseball sabermetrics, at least the performance could be isolated. Certain features of FO are ambitious and try to parse out individual performance, but in the end it's not terribly convincing. It can't be. the number of variables impacting an individual player in professional football are too complex. And throwing all the receivers into the same pot is kind of silly, not to mention the impact of who's throwing to them. Anyway, I really don't care if you rank Marshall 20th or 5th. He's the best receiver the Jets have had in many years. But you think Decker is better, so be it.

 

[RutgersJetFan]

It seemed apparent to me based on their equivocations about what they can't measure, not to mention what they don't consider -- how a receiver is used, who that receiver is paired with, or not. How do you measure Beckham's worth as essentially the sole quality target on the Giants vs. Fitzgerald with John Brown, for example. The dynamic is entirely different. How do you assess a possession or slot receiver vs. a vertical receiver? For example, does the slot lend itself to higher catch % by virtue of the routes that are run and the altered coverage. What about red zone value? What about impact of receiver who takes double teams to free other receivers? etc. etc. It's a lousy stat, frankly. If we were talking baseball sabermetrics, at least the performance could be isolated. Certain features of FO are ambitious and try to parse out individual performance, but in the end it's not terribly convincing. It can't be. the number of variables impacting an individual player in professional football are too complex. And throwing all the receivers into the same pot is kind of silly, not to mention the impact of who's throwing to them. Anyway, I really don't care if you rank Marshall 20th or 5th. He's the best receiver the Jets have had in many years. But you think Decker is better, so be it.

 

Got it. So they never really said that and you just made it up.

[RutgersJetFan]

Agreed. Marshall is deserving of a top 20 season and he's been a huge reason our offense is playing the best it has in years, but we've all seen him drop easy, crucial third down receptions, at least three guaranteed touchdowns and the few fumbles as well. All in all, he and Decker are putting together two of the best seasons that I've seen a WR have in the green and white, so I'm beyond happy over it.  I think that's the problem you run when you don't fellate your own players, others assume you're an idiot or not a real fan.  Why can't I be both an idiot and a real fan. 

All in all he hasn't been a douchebag or hit any women, so this is progress. I still hate rooting for the dude, just as I did with Vick, but whatever. And I have to admit the Keyshawn book was pretty ******* hysterical for a billion reasons.

[Matt39]

It seemed apparent to me based on their equivocations about what they can't measure, not to mention what they don't consider -- how a receiver is used, who that receiver is paired with, or not. How do you measure Beckham's worth as essentially the sole quality target on the Giants vs. Fitzgerald with John Brown, for example. The dynamic is entirely different. How do you assess a possession or slot receiver vs. a vertical receiver? For example, does the slot lend itself to higher catch % by virtue of the routes that are run and the altered coverage. What about red zone value? What about impact of receiver who takes double teams to free other receivers? etc. etc. It's a lousy stat, frankly. If we were talking baseball sabermetrics, at least the performance could be isolated. Certain features of FO are ambitious and try to parse out individual performance, but in the end it's not terribly convincing. It can't be. the number of variables impacting an individual player in professional football are too complex. And throwing all the receivers into the same pot is kind of silly, not to mention the impact of who's throwing to them. Anyway, I really don't care if you rank Marshall 20th or 5th. He's the best receiver the Jets have had in many years. But you think Decker is better, so be it.

 

Cobb led the league in DVOA last season. Nelson gets hurt and he plummets. As you point out its impossible to truly capture.

[Smashmouth]

In certain situations Marshall is hard to beat the red zone being one of them.

When you are talking about WR's that are all in the 100 catch 1500 yard area its hard to say who is better than who and touchdowns usually fixes that argument. But If I had to pick the best WR in the NFL it would be Julio Jones who basically played most of this season with nagging injuries . if Im in the red zone and simply must have a TD Im taking Marshall over every one else but Julio and that includes Antonio Brown. Brown is explosive but he just does not have the height to be a top tier red zone threat I think they go to Bryant more often than Antonio in those situations.

Right now I would rate both Marshall and Eric Decker pretty high and as a duo they are pretty hard to beat right now and they seem to be in very good timing with Fitz which means everything.

[The Crusher]

In certain situations Marshall is hard to beat the red zone being one of them.

When you are talking about WR's that are all in the 100 catch 1500 yard area its hard to say who is better than who and touchdowns usually fixes that argument. But If I had to pick the best WR in the NFL it would be Julio Jones who basically played most of this season with nagging injuries . if Im in the red zone and simply must have a TD Im taking Marshall over every one else but Julio and that includes Antonio Brown. Brown is explosive but he just does not have the height to be a top tier red zone threat I think they go to Bryant more often than Antonio in those situations.

Right now I would rate both Marshall and Eric Decker pretty high and as a duo they are pretty hard to beat right now and they seem to be in very good timing with Fitz which means everything.

9 feet tall!!

[Smashmouth]

All in all he hasn't been a douchebag or hit any women, so this is progress. I still hate rooting for the dude, just as I did with Vick, but whatever. And I have to admit the Keyshawn book was pretty ******* hysterical for a billion reasons.

No one likes men who hit women but Brandon Marshall recognized he had a problem and did what he needed to do to fix the issue. So many players do not take those steps and wind up ruining their lives and the lives of people around them. They also disrupt the teams they play for.

I think Marshall deserves at least some credit for dealing with his problem and getting his life on track. I can't imagine what people who have mental illnesses go through but it can't be fun and it can certainly ruin lives, I'm just glad the guy did what he needed to do and since he did put in the effort I think it makes it that much easier to root for him compared to an Idiot like Greg Hardy who IMHO is a disgrace and should not be in this league. Marshall seems like a genuinely happy guy now and I hope he continues doing what he'd doing because people like him can make a very positive impact on other peoples lives and Brandon certainly has done that.

[jgb]

Marshall is an animal. I love him. Go Brandon, go.