Good Teams Don't Allow Stud young Players to Reach FA (Harrison/ Wilkerson)

[BroadwayJets]

20 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

- Ummmm....You got the question answered both times. Interesting take - you've never disputed it, yet somehow everything you've said kind of aims the opposite, no?

- Could you at least, for the love of Jah, link the tweet? Why is this like pulling teeth?

- Like pretty much everything you've said, the backtracking is also all in your imagination.

- The DL isn't stacked without Wilkerson. They have a 2nd year player, a guy who got himself suspended last year before almost going to jail this year, and then little depth behind them. One of the biggest myths being sold on this board is that the Jets are so overwhelmingly loaded on the DL that they can afford to let their best player go - they're deep *because* they have Wilkerson, and that depth is gone the second he is.

- Ignoring that spending that money elsewhere wouldn't get you all that much, you immediately backed off when pressed about who (who as in who, not what) to spend that money on before. You're right that the Jets will spend this offseason - they will need to to keep their best player. I would suggest Richardson check out real estate in Bellevue, Washington. I hear it's very, very nice.

User Actions

  Follow

Corey Griffin‏@CoreyGriffinNBC

Corey Griffin Retweeted Klaas Jan

Wilkerson finished with 45 hurries, 23 QB hits and 12 sacks, along with 39 stops, according to @PFF.

Thought it was PFF, had that screenshotted for a while, but media members have access to PFF. Consumers aren't anymore because they sold out. Very inconvenient 

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

It's obvious that Richardson is years behind Wilkerson as a player,

 

53 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

They're not far apart on the field, but Wilkerson is better.

But that's not backtracking, right?

 

I'm not doing this all day. You're overrating Mo due to what he did this season. I'm looking at the big picture (aka his career). You're assuming Sheldon can't hit his ceiling for some reason. I'm looking at Sheldon's career to back up what I say. 

 

12 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Rank	Player	Sack %	Hit/Hur %	Tot Pres %	Sack Rate	APY
1	J.J. Watt	2.8%	15.0%	17.7%	15.7%	$16,666,667
2	Cameron Jordan	2.7%	11.8%	14.5%	18.4%	$1,932,850
3	Kyle Williams	2.4%	10.5%	12.9%	18.8%	$10,000,000
4	Vinny Curry	2.7%	10.2%	12.9%	21.2%	$845,458
5	Mike Daniels	1.9%	9.8%	11.7%	16.3%	$600,146
6	Antonio Smith	1.9%	9.2%	11.2%	17.4%	$2,000,000
7	Frostee Rucker	1.3%	9.6%	10.9%	12.0%	$1,000,000
8	Jurrell Casey	1.0%	9.4%	10.5%	9.8%	$9,000,000
9	Justin Smith	1.4%	9.0%	10.4%	13.3%	$4,550,000
10	Calais Campbell	1.7%	8.6%	10.3%	16.1%	$11,000,000
11	Cameron Heyward	1.4%	8.6%	10.0%	13.9%	$1,676,257
12	Tommy Kelly	0.2%	9.4%	9.7%	2.4%	$955,000
13	Sheldon Richardson	1.4%	7.9%	9.3%	15.3%	$2,513,500
14	Fletcher Cox	0.6%	8.6%	9.2%	7.0%	$2,560,300
15	Arthur Jones	1.7%	7.3%	9.0%	18.4%	$6,600,000
16	Cory Redding	1.2%	7.7%	8.9%	13.2%	$3,000,000
17	Datone Jones	1.7%	7.1%	8.8%	18.9%	$1,929,150
18	Corey Liuget	1.3%	7.5%	8.7%	14.5%	$2,078,936
19	Ray McDonald	0.9%	7.7%	8.6%	10.3%	$1,050,000
20	Muhammad Wilkerson	1.7%	6.9%	8.5%	19.8%	$1,718,750
21	Brett Keisel	0.9%	7.4%	8.3%	10.6%	$1,500,000
22	Desmond Bryant	1.3%	7.0%	8.3%	15.6%	$6,800,000
23	Tony Jerod-Eddie	0.0%	8.0%	8.0%	0.0%	$585,000
24	Ricardo Mathews	0.7%	6.7%	7.4%	9.7%	$920,000
25	Darnell Dockett	0.9%	6.4%	7.3%	12.5%	$3,750,000
26	Kendall Reyes	0.8%	6.1%	6.9%	11.5%	$1,031,999
27	Jared Crick	1.0%	5.9%	6.9%	14.3%	$622,875
28	Billy Winn	0.7%	6.0%	6.7%	10.3%	$544,670
29	Allen Bailey	1.0%	5.5%	6.5%	15.6%	$5,000,000
30	Ricky Jean-Francois	1.0%	4.9%	6.0%	17.1%	$3,000,000
31	Chris Canty	0.6%	4.8%	5.4%	11.1%	$2,325,000
32	Vince Wilfork	0.2%	4.4%	4.7%	5.3%	$4,500,000
33	Cedric Thornton	0.3%	4.2%	4.5%	6.5%	$2,356,000
34	Jarvis Jenkins	0.7%	3.0%	3.7%	20.0%	$825,000

Wilkerson is above average in terms of generating sacks but slightly below average in total pressures. Is that because of the presence of Richardson taking away opportunities?  Is that because of the defense they run?  Did he just have a fluke run of plays that turned into sacks? Do the Jets face a ton of short passes that limits his ability to pressure? For the Jets many of those questions won’t matter since he is what he is in this system, which should be similar to what they ran last season despite the new coaching staff. But for other teams those are all very valid questions when they decide if he will be a better statistical rusher in their system than he seems to be in New York, where he will likely be considered second fiddle to Richardson.

Let’s look at the run performance with a similar 400 snap cutoff:

 

Player	Stop %	Tck %	APY
J.J. Watt	12.2%	14.1%	$16,666,667
Calais Campbell	10.5%	12.7%	$11,000,000
Cedric Thornton	9.6%	13.2%	$2,356,000
Fletcher Cox	9.0%	11.2%	$2,560,300
Muhammad Wilkerson	8.9%	10.5%	$1,718,750
Sheldon Richardson	8.7%	11.9%	$2,513,500
Mike Daniels	8.4%	10.0%	$600,146
Arthur Jones	8.4%	11.0%	$6,600,000
Ray McDonald	8.4%	11.8%	$1,050,000
Allen Bailey	7.9%	10.6%	$5,000,000
Justin Smith	7.2%	9.5%	$4,550,000
Corey Liuget	6.4%	8.9%	$2,078,936
Ricky Jean-Francois	6.4%	7.6%	$3,000,000
Cameron Heyward	6.2%	9.1%	$1,676,257
Cory Redding	5.7%	7.3%	$3,000,000
Jarvis Jenkins	5.6%	8.7%	$825,000
Desmond Bryant	5.3%	7.8%	$6,800,000
Jared Crick	5.0%	8.4%	$622,875
Kendall Reyes	3.5%	5.3%	$1,031,999

 

[SenorGato]

Quote

But that's not backtracking, right?

Not even slightly, no.

Quote

I'm not doing this all day. You're overrating Mo due to what he did this season. I'm looking at the big picture (aka his career). You're assuming Sheldon can't hit his ceiling for some reason. I'm looking at Sheldon's career to back up what I say. 

If I'm overrating Mo, and I'm not, it would be on what he's done over the course of 5 full seasons. I'm not assuming anything - Richardson hasn't hit what you imagine his ceiling to be, and you "looking at Sheldon's career to back up what I say" is just another thing you made up that sounds good in your head. If anyone is overrating a player over short periods of time, it's you with Richardson.

[BroadwayJets]

1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

Not even slightly, no.

If I'm overrating Mo, and I'm not, it would be on what he's done over the course of 5 full seasons. I'm not assuming anything - Richardson hasn't hit what you imagine his ceiling to be, and you "looking at Sheldon's career to back up what I say" is just another thing you made up that sounds good in your head. If anyone is overrating a player over short periods of time, it's you with Richardson.

Ok, didn't realize I was arguing with someone who doesn't know what backtracking is.

 

I'm using Sheldon's previous years to debate this because this year he missed 5 games and played half of his snaps at OLB! 

[SenorGato]

44 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Here are my thoughts about the whole D-Line:

1)  Harrison is an important part of the D-line against the run.  Problem is, he is probably going to get a HUGE contract.  This goes back to Idzik not signing him long term two years ago.  Barnes being poached by Ryan hurt because I thought he had been coached up enough to replace Harrison if Harrison priced himself out with his play.  Lets hope Deon Barnes can turn into something good.

2) The depth is not there, I agree, unless we sign it all again.  Douzable is a good player when he is asked to NOT do too much.  We have played him well the last few years, and I hope we resign him for depth.

3) This whole thing got botched, again, with Idzik.  He should have extended Mo beforehand.  Now the problem is the team will have to pay top dollar.  I know you don't like the comparison, but I think it is valid, and valid for Philadelphia as well.  If Cox is going to set the market, and he gets paid as if he is the best D-linman, than you should play as so (which the comparable is JJ Watt).  The front office now has to make the decision of is Mo worth that kind of money to the team, that they will sink $17-18 million a season into him.

4) IF they deem him expendable, then they must think Leonard Williams will be as good as him, and can get him at a fraction of the cost, which means more money can go to another position in the short-term.  If they went with Richardson and Williams on the ends in this scenario, maybe they pay Harrison.

In a perfect world, it would have been Richardson in this boat as our best player and making the bone-head moves he did.  Would make things easier.  But after picking Leonard Williams, I don't think they can have him, Wilkerson, Richardson, and Harrison.  They need to figure out the best combination of talent, at the best price, and then try and get assets for whatever they choose to get rid of.

My thinking is that the Jets set themselves up to lose both Richardson and Wilkerson by not extending one - preferably the better buy in Wilkerson - this offseason. Right now you have a situation where the QB position isn't going to cost a ton of money and the cap is expected to fly up over the next couple of offseasons. With the cap going up, salaries on the open market will explode because besides extensions there is nothing else for teams to spend on. You keep Richardson around without paying him, then he'll bolt for the highest bidder after 2017 OR cost even more than Wilkerson will today to extend. Sure, there's the shot that Richardson gets his sh*t together momentarily to get his FA payday, but in Wilkerson you have a guy who played hard and stayed right off the field for years before his FA came up. 

 

[SenorGato]

9 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

Ok, didn't realize I was arguing with someone who doesn't know what backtracking is.

 

I'm using Sheldon's previous years to debate this because this year he missed 5 games and played half of his snaps at OLB! 

Apparently backtracking is a buzzword you like to use alot. That doesn't mean anything to me. Again - like most of what you are saying it's just said to be said without any grounds or meaning or substance.

He missed 5 games because he's an ass, he took snaps at OLB because he's their third best DL and it doesn't hurt to showcase his athleticism to potential buyers. They can do to teams what you're trying to do to me - sell me on a ceiling he hasn't touched and is probably not going to for a significant enough period of time. Ignoring that you've barely touched Richardson's career in any meaningful way - choosing instead to focus on how he played some OLB last year - anytime you do you ask that we ignore that WIlkerson has had better seasons for things like "he got his sacks by chasing the QB." When pointed out that that is weird thinking and not how it works, you can't just pick and choose what numbers matter, you responded with "your delusional." Soooooo....keeep trying, I guess. Honestly, I'd prefer you didn't, but am in either way.

[BroadwayJets]

8 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Apparently backtracking is a buzzword you like to use alot. That doesn't mean anything to me. Again - like most of what you are saying it's just said to be said without any grounds or meaning or substance.

He missed 5 games because he's an ass, he took snaps at OLB because he's their third best DL and it doesn't hurt to showcase his athleticism to potential buyers. They can do to teams what you're trying to do to me - sell me on a ceiling he hasn't touched and is probably not going to for a significant enough period of time. Ignoring that you've barely touched Richardson's career in any meaningful way - choosing instead to focus on how he played some OLB last year - anytime you do you ask that we ignore that WIlkerson has had better seasons for things like "he got his sacks by chasing the QB." When pointed out that that is weird thinking and not how it works, you can't just pick and choose what numbers matter, you responded with "your delusional." Soooooo....keeep trying, I guess. Honestly, I'd prefer you didn't, but am in either way.

No, I just like calling you out for fumbling your words. 

 

So you're of the belief that Bowles put Sheldon at OLB to get a higher selling price? What?? 

And no, all I've been doing is saying that Mo and Sheldon are not far apart, and that because Sheldon wasn't strictly a DE this season, not to mention he missed games, it's not fair to compare numbers this season to sh*t on Sheldon. Mo obviously had a career year, played more games than Sheldon and more sacks. OVERALL IN THEIR CAREERS, their not that different. As far as I'm concerned, Sheldon's still very young, and there's absolutely room for him to continue growing. Yes, there's a wildcard in there, but I guarantee Mac is willing to bet that Sheldon doesn't get in trouble again. (Baseless, i know, that's a word you like too.) And not only that, I've said it countless times, I asked you in the beginning about talent. You told me Sheldon is years behind Mo. Then you said later after I proved that they are similar, that Sheldon is not far behind. THAT, is backtracking. 

 

 

2 hours ago, SenorGato said:

It's obvious that Richardson is years behind Wilkerson as a player,

 

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

They're not far apart on the field, but Wilkerson is better

Have a nice day, Senorgato. And I'm sure we'll revisit the Vic Beasley debate soon enough 

[CanadaSteve]

20 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

My thinking is that the Jets set themselves up to lose both Richardson and Wilkerson by not extending one - preferably the better buy in Wilkerson - this offseason. Right now you have a situation where the QB position isn't going to cost a ton of money and the cap is expected to fly up over the next couple of offseasons. With the cap going up, salaries on the open market will explode because besides extensions there is nothing else for teams to spend on. You keep Richardson around without paying him, then he'll bolt for the highest bidder after 2017 OR cost even more than Wilkerson will today to extend. Sure, there's the shot that Richardson gets his sh*t together momentarily to get his FA payday, but in Wilkerson you have a guy who played hard and stayed right off the field for years before his FA came up. 

 

I wonder if the Jets might roll the dice and try and trade both Richardson and Wilkerson.  They have Williams and Barnes, can resign Douzable fairly easy, and pick another DE/DT this year.  I don't like the idea, but you have to wonder if it has crossed any minds in the FO.  Wilkerson would garner a 1st, and perhaps someone would part with a low 1st/high 2nd for Richardson.  I would say it would offer a lot of flexibility to garner many more picks, and you could bring in lots of solid cheap talent.  That said, I hope that is not an idea anyone would consider.  Ideally, we could pay Mo what Sheldon is making this year, and then trade Sheldon for Mo's worth!

[section314]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I wonder if the Jets might roll the dice and try and trade both Richardson and Wilkerson.  They have Williams and Barnes, can resign Douzable fairly easy, and pick another DE/DT this year.  I don't like the idea, but you have to wonder if it has crossed any minds in the FO.  Wilkerson would garner a 1st, and perhaps someone would part with a low 1st/high 2nd for Richardson.  I would say it would offer a lot of flexibility to garner many more picks, and you could bring in lots of solid cheap talent.  That said, I hope that is not an idea anyone would consider.  Ideally, we could pay Mo what Sheldon is making this year, and then trade Sheldon for Mo's worth!

Great idea!  Jets could revolutionize football and play a 2-5-4 defense. Should have thought of this years ago.

[Sperm Edwards]

55 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Apparently backtracking is a buzzword you like to use alot. That doesn't mean anything to me. Again - like most of what you are saying it's just said to be said without any grounds or meaning or substance.

He missed 5 games because he's an ass, he took snaps at OLB because he's their third best DL and it doesn't hurt to showcase his athleticism to potential buyers. They can do to teams what you're trying to do to me - sell me on a ceiling he hasn't touched and is probably not going to for a significant enough period of time. Ignoring that you've barely touched Richardson's career in any meaningful way - choosing instead to focus on how he played some OLB last year - anytime you do you ask that we ignore that WIlkerson has had better seasons for things like "he got his sacks by chasing the QB." When pointed out that that is weird thinking and not how it works, you can't just pick and choose what numbers matter, you responded with "your delusional." Soooooo....keeep trying, I guess. Honestly, I'd prefer you didn't, but am in either way.

Not necessarily. Another equally reasonable justification is that he was at OLB because, even though he's out of position out there, he can "fake it" and play that position better than Mo or Williams. Bowles said he wants his best players on the field and that meant all 3 of the team's DEs. He may just feel he would play better, out of position, than the other two. 

I forget who said it earlier, but you're on the attack against people (like me) who LIKE Wilkerson A LOT. 

The difference in opinion is not that anyone doesn't think that Mo's a terrific player. It stems from:

1. Not everyone thinks he is a $12M upgrade from Sheldon Richardson for 2016 plus a $7M-ish upgrade from Sheldon in 2017. If Mac thought so he'd have been locked up already and he would have traded out of the #6 pick, traded Richardson before he got into trouble, or he would have selected someone else at #6 outright (like that WR Chicago took, who sadly blew out his knee over the summer).
2. As a pass rusher, he gets taken out of games too easily by holding non-calls. It's infuriating, but if that's how the games are called then it has to factor into his value.
3. He seems to disappear too often for an "elite" guy.

As much as I (and others) like him, he's replaceable (particularly on a team that already has Williams and Richardson). Everyone is replaceable except a franchise QB or someone so unique you'd have to allocate 2-3 players on the field to take his place (like Revis when he was Revis, or a WR who is essentially open whenever he's not double/triple-teamed). That isn't Mo. He's really good he's excellent, but he's just not incredible or unstoppable, which is what a player at that $ should be.

There are positions elsewhere where $15M/year in upgrades will be far more useful and obvious difference-makers. Just like with Brick, and unlike that situation we don't even have another LT yet.

[CanadaSteve]

10 minutes ago, section314 said:

Great idea!  Jets could revolutionize football and play a 2-5-4 defense. Should have thought of this years ago.

Did you miss the part where I thought it would be a bad idea?  As an FO, your job is to think of all the possibilities, and I was saying I hope this is not one they would entertain.

[Sperm Edwards]

26 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I wonder if the Jets might roll the dice and try and trade both Richardson and Wilkerson.  They have Williams and Barnes, can resign Douzable fairly easy, and pick another DE/DT this year.  I don't like the idea, but you have to wonder if it has crossed any minds in the FO.  Wilkerson would garner a 1st, and perhaps someone would part with a low 1st/high 2nd for Richardson.  I would say it would offer a lot of flexibility to garner many more picks, and you could bring in lots of solid cheap talent.  That said, I hope that is not an idea anyone would consider.  Ideally, we could pay Mo what Sheldon is making this year, and then trade Sheldon for Mo's worth!

While technically anything's possible, I don't think this one has even a 5% chance. Mac would be gambling his own career with a pair of moves like that in one offseason, and he'd be doing it without the need to do so and without a QB who's worthy of such a sacrifice elsewhere on the roster.

If he gets rid of one, he still has the other. If he gets rid of both, then we're thin and have to cross our fingers every year (or draft yet another DE which no one here should have the stomach for, and it lessens the "value" of the draft pick we'd have just acquired). Besides, even as someone who advocates for letting him go if he's really going to be in the $15M range, there's a noticeable line between a good backup who can fill in without much downgrade in a pinch, but who would be a noticeable downgrade over a full season. Then, of course, our depth behind them is nonexistent.

The problem with a top-heavy roster is it depletes the depth. We end up with a half dozen mega-contracts and too many starters are just meh and their backups are too often useless unless we just get lucky with late draft picks and UDFAs. Richardson wouldn't be serious top-heavy $ until 2018.

[SenorGato]

26 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

No, I just like calling you out for fumbling your words. 

So you're of the belief that Bowles put Sheldon at OLB to get a higher selling price? What?? 

And no, all I've been doing is saying that Mo and Sheldon are not far apart, and that because Sheldon wasn't strictly a DE this season, not to mention he missed games, it's not fair to compare numbers this season to sh*t on Sheldon. Mo obviously had a career year, played more games than Sheldon and more sacks. OVERALL IN THEIR CAREERS, their not that different. As far as I'm concerned, Sheldon's still very young, and there's absolutely room for him to continue growing. Yes, there's a wildcard in there, but I guarantee Mac is willing to bet that Sheldon doesn't get in trouble again. (Baseless, i know, that's a word you like too.) And not only that, I've said it countless times, I asked you in the beginning about talent. You told me Sheldon is years behind Mo. Then you said later after I proved that they are similar, that Sheldon is not far behind. THAT, is backtracking. 

Have a nice day, Senorgato. And I'm sure we'll revisit the Vic Beasley debate soon enough 

- No, you're saying things and hoping it sticks - no different than how this whole things been going.

- I'll repeat it for you:

Quote

he took snaps at OLB because he's their third best DL and it doesn't hurt to showcase his athleticism to potential buyers.

- Luckily they've played more than this season.

- Sheldon obviously had a career year in 2014.

- Overall, in their careers, Wilkerson is better *and* he does it without causing any trouble.

- I guarantee Mac is willing to bet that Sheldon does get in trouble again.

- You asked me the question twice and got an answer twice. You don't have me cornered, please stop trying to play this game of "got ya!"

- Richardson is, indeed, years behind Mo in production. That they're similar on a rate basis is why the Jets can expect a high pick for Richardson. It's not that complicated, and there's no backtracking involved. Sorry, try a different angle, maybe?

[BroadwayJets]

1 minute ago, SenorGato said:

- No, you're saying things and hoping it sticks - no different than how this whole things been going.

- I'll repeat it for you:

- Luckily they've played more than this season.

- Sheldon obviously had a career year in 2014.

- Overall, in their careers, Wilkerson is better *and* he does it without causing any trouble.

- I guarantee Mac is willing to bet that Sheldon does get in trouble again.

- You asked me the question twice and got an answer twice. You don't have me cornered, please stop trying to play this game of "got ya!"

- Richardson is, indeed, years behind Mo in production. That they're similar on a rate basis is why the Jets can expect a high pick for Richardson. It's not that complicated, and there's no backtracking involved. Sorry, try a different angle, maybe?

I'm going to assume you mean third best DL behind Snacks and Wilk, right? Because if you're saying Leonard is better than Sheldon then you're just working against yourself.

 

If you're so worried about Sheldon being a character risk why in the hell would you assume Sheldon is at his peak value and it would be better to trade him than Mo? Makes no sense. Nobody wants to trade for a guy who they think may not see the field because of character issues, yet, you believe we can get a high pick for him. 

 

I get it, you just would rather see Mo on the team than Sheldon. 

 

[SenorGato]

36 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Not necessarily. Another equally reasonable justification is that he was at OLB because, even though he's out of position out there, he can "fake it" and play that position better than Mo or Williams. Bowles said he wants his best players on the field and that meant all 3 of the team's DEs. He may just feel he would play better, out of position, than the other two. 

I forget who said it earlier, but you're on the attack against people (like me) who LIKE Wilkerson A LOT. 

The difference in opinion is not that anyone doesn't think that Mo's a terrific player. It stems from:

1. Not everyone thinks he is a $12M upgrade from Sheldon Richardson for 2016 plus a $7M-ish upgrade from Sheldon in 2017. If Mac thought so he'd have been locked up already and he would have traded out of the #6 pick, traded Richardson before he got into trouble, or he would have selected someone else there outright.
2. As a pass rusher, he gets taken out of games too easily by non-holding calls. It's infuriating, but if that's how the games are called then it has to factor into his value.
3. He seems to disappear too often for an "elite" guy.

As much as I (and others) like him, he's replaceable (particularly on a team that already has Williams and Richardson). Everyone is replaceable except a franchise QB or someone so unique you'd have to allocate 2-3 players on the field to take his place (like Revis when he was Revis, or a WR who is essentially open whenever he's not double/triple-teamed). That isn't Mo. He's really good he's excellent, but he's just not incredible or unstoppable, which is what a player at that $ should be.

There are positions elsewhere where $15M/year in upgrades will be far more useful and obvious difference-makers. Just like with Brick, and unlike that situation we don't even have another LT yet.

- I don't disagree on the faking it or anything in the first paragraph, but don't think that stops it from being at least a little bit of a showcase.

- I'm not on the attack so much as there's aloooooot of crummy logic going on.

1 - What everyone is missing is that Sheldon is gone to the highest bidder after 2017. Cap space going up means FA salaries are going up, making a Richardson extension similarly unpalatable and setting up to not have either. Also not being considered is that potential savings from not signing Wilkerson probably doesn't buy what people think it buys in FA, not that anyone has offered any solid suggestions on who to spend that money on anyway.

2 - This is true of pretty much everyone, and he's really good even with it.

3 - *Everyone* seems to disappear too often for an elite guy if you sit down and watch every snap of every game. It's the most common knock in the game, especially for front 7 players.

The thing is that he less replaceable than others on the team. In fact, he's less replaceable than other players (Harrison and Richardson) on that DL.

Again with the imaginary salaries and contract demands - I don't even consider this a point worth arguing anymore. The only place I've seen $15 million in connection to Wilkerson is here and Sheldon Richardson:

Quote

“He’s worth that penny,” Richardson told the Daily News in Richardson parlance. “And you know what penny I’m talking about. . . . We don’t just want J.J. Watt money. We want it all. We want [Ndamukong] Suh money. Hopefully everybody wants that type of bread in this league.”

Note his use of the word "we"...Someone's setting themselves up.

Extend Wilkerson and trade Richardson, it makes way, way, waaaaaay more sense than letting Wilkerson go if you consider the grand scheme rather than simply reacting negatively to not getting a super obvious bargain right away.

[Sperm Edwards]

9 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

- I don't disagree on the faking it or anything in the first paragraph, but don't think that stops it from being at least a little bit of a showcase.

- I'm not on the attack so much as there's aloooooot of crummy logic going on.

1 - What everyone is missing is that Sheldon is gone to the highest bidder after 2017. Cap space going up means FA salaries are going up, making a Richardson extension similarly unpalatable and setting up to not have either.

2 - This is true of pretty much everyone, and he's really good even with it.

3 - *Everyone* seems to disappear too often for an elite guy if you sit down and watch every snap of every game. It's the most common knock in the game.

The thing is that he less replaceable than others on the team. In fact, he's less replaceable than other players (Harrison and Richardson) on that DL.

Again with the imaginary salaries and contract demands - I don't even consider this a point worth arguing anymore. The only place I've seen $15 million in connection to Wilkerson is here and Sheldon Richardson:

Note his use of the word "we"...Someone's setting themselves up.

Extend Wilkerson and trade Richardson, it makes way, way, waaaaaay more sense than letting Wilkerson go.

I remember that line from Sheldon. But I also remember you scolding the "imaginary" demands from Revis. That there was no basis whatsoever that he was seeking a $16M/year deal. Also 2018 is a long way off and a lot can happen between then and now.

He just gets taken out of the game too often. And he's not all that as a pass rusher despite the good sack # this year against mostly trash competition. 

The team is perfectly capable of being a 4-win team with him WITH Snacks and Richardson both playing well. Basically, I just don't think he's a $15M difference-maker. He's not less replaceable than Sheldon when you factor in their contracts. Mo at $15M is not as valuable as Sheldon at $3M. The team can spend $12M on another beast of a player and have a barely-noticeable downgrade (if there ends up being a downgrade at all) from Mo to Sheldon.

2018 is a long time from now, and you jump on locking someone up long term if it's a crazy-good deal for the team (where we wouldn't have to wait until 2018 to reap the full rewards). 

I'd rather upgrade $15M worth of FAs elsewhere, where we'd notice the upgrade wayyyy more than anyone would notice Mo/Williams over Sheldon/Williams.

[SenorGato]

Quote

I remember that line from Sheldon. But I also remember you scolding the "imaginary" demands from Revis. That there was no basis whatsoever that he was seeking a $16M/year deal. Also 2018 is a long way off and a lot can happen between then and now.

While there are some minor parallels, this situation is not that situation. For one, Revis was and is a far more mainstream player than Wilkerson. For another, Revis had spent years holding out and building towards that FA period with hard negotiations tactics. From there - Revis didn't get anywhere near the guaranteed money most here said he would ($32 million IIRC) - he signed for $0 guaranteed with the Bucs.

2018 isn't as far away as it seems, and procrastinating isn't going to drop the demands Richardson is already hinting at.

Quote

I'd rather upgrade $15M worth of FAs elsewhere, where we'd notice the upgrade wayyyy more than anyone would notice Mo/Williams over Sheldon/Williams.

 Everyone says this, but press for details and things go quiet pretty quickly. You're not getting as much as you think you will with that money, not that anyone could tell me who they could or would get get, and you're certainly not getting a player anywhere near as good. We went through this with Revis, it went nowhere. Did it with Coles, he ended up back here...did it with Abe and are still trying to replace him...At some point it needs to be realized that not paying your stars doesn't have the benefits the imagination offers when there's no consequences and a vacuum.

Quote

He just gets taken out of the game too often. And he's not all that as a pass rusher despite the good sack # this year against mostly trash competition. 

Yeah again, not really a thing and likely exaggerated because it's time to pay up. While he's not a tippy top tier edge pass rusher, which I imagine is the standard he's being held to for no reason and the ideal situation for most he's the best and most consistent one the Jets have got. He also doesn't prevent the Jets from finding that guy the way teams always find that guy - through the draft. Throw out all the excuses in the book, this is no different than what's happened before and you'll be lining up the excuses not to pay up the next guy too...It's a ridiculous cycle at this point, just a different face each time, and each time the franchise stagnates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

While there are some minor parallels, this situation is not that situation. For one, Revis was and is a far more mainstream player than Wilkerson. For another, Revis had spent years holding out and building towards that FA period with hard negotiations tactics. From there - Revis didn't get anywhere near the guaranteed money most here said he would ($32 million IIRC) - he signed for $0 guaranteed with the Bucs.

2018 isn't as far away as it seems, and procrastinating isn't going to drop the demands Richardson is already hinting at.

 Everyone says this, but press for details and things go quiet pretty quickly. You're not getting as much as you think you will with that money, not that anyone could tell me who they could or would get get, and you're certainly not getting a player anywhere near as good. We went through this with Revis, it went nowhere. Did it with Coles, he ended up back here...did it with Abe and are still trying to replace him...At some point it needs to be realized that not paying your stars doesn't have the benefits the imagination offers when there's no consequences and a vacuum.

Yeah again, not really a thing and likely exaggerated because it's time to pay up. While he's not a tippy top tier edge pass rusher, which I imagine is the standard he's being held to for no reason and the ideal situation for most he's the best and most consistent one the Jets have got. He also doesn't prevent the Jets from finding that guy the way teams always find that guy - through the draft. Throw out all the excuses in the book, this is no different than what's happened before and you'll be lining up the excuses not to pay up the next guy too...It's a ridiculous cycle at this point, just a different face each time, and each time the franchise stagnates.

 

He's not anywhere near a top edge rusher. He got 12 sacks once in his career, in a season stacked against garbage opponents, and 1/3 of his sacks came when we were already up by a few TDs (3 of them coming in 1 game, against a Tennessee team that seemed to get their QB sacked enough you'd think that was their intended purpose).

So he's just not nearly a top-notch pass rusher. He's a damn good ballplayer and I'd like him back again, but not at anywhere near the $ he's looking for. Good for him if he can get it, because he hasn't made much (comparatively) over the past 2 seasons. 

And the only Revis parallel is the one where you said everyone else was making stuff up, that Revis wasn't seeking $16M and would take $12M/year from us. That was 100% wrong back then and Wilkerson isn't seeking a team-friendly deal now (and for the record, neither would I if I were him).

Mo was seeking nearly that much BEFORE his career year, when he wasn't a FA, and had to play one more season while risking a career-ending injury. A player in that situation takes a little less reward for a lot more security. Sometimes a player bets on himself and wins, sometimes players lose. In this case Mo won, and he'd be an idiot to accept the same money or less after taking on $50M+ of risk by himself.

2018 is 3 seasons from now. It isn't procrastinating. It's that a team doesn't sign a player to a $15M/year contract (or more, for all we know) when they have 2 equally or greater talented players already on the roster for less than half that combined. And if we're not contenders now, and are just planning for 2018 and beyond, then do the Idzik thing and save the money for a rainy day when spending it will have some realistic benefit. I'm not suggesting that at all, despite your allusion to that sentiment. I'm saying spend it all but spend it on positions where we have nothing, not on a position where we're in good to great shape without him.

Like I said, we're not going to agree on this. I think Mo is a terrific player who I'd miss, but he's not a great or irreplaceable player and certainly a player who can get taken out of games too easily. 

[CanadaSteve]

There is no certainty that Sheldon leaves in 2017, especially if Mo is not resigned.  If anything, if the decision is to trade Mo, or to just outright let him walk in FA, they would probably try and get Sheldon extended now where his leverage is not as good because of the off-field issues/impending suspension. 

Again, with the salary cap going up, it could all be a moot point.  Depending on the actual increases, it might be possible to pay 2-3 of your best players like QB's.

[SenorGato]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

There is no certainty that Sheldon leaves in 2017, especially if Mo is not resigned.  If anything, if the decision is to trade Mo, or to just outright let him walk in FA, they would probably try and get Sheldon extended now where his leverage is not as good because of the off-field issues/impending suspension. 

Again, with the salary cap going up, it could all be a moot point.  Depending on the actual increases, it might be possible to pay 2-3 of your best players like QB's.

Considering what he's already planted the seeds for as far as demands, there's a pretty good shot he leaves. If they did trade Mo or let him walk, Richardson's not giving any discounts because fans on a message board think he has no leverage. He has plenty of leverage - at least one more year on his rookie deal, probably two - and doesn't have to sign anything for a price he doesn't want to.

You only need to pay one. There's no need or even all that much reason to keep both. One represents a much better investment than the other precisely because of those off the field issues.

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He's not anywhere near a top edge rusher. He got 12 sacks once in his career, in a season stacked against garbage opponents, and 1/3 of his sacks came when we were already up by a few TDs (3 of them coming in 1 game, against a Tennessee team that seemed to get their QB sacked enough you'd think that was their intended purpose).

So he's just not nearly a top-notch pass rusher. He's a damn good ballplayer and I'd like him back again, but not at anywhere near the $ he's looking for. Good for him if he can get it, because he hasn't made much (comparatively) over the past 2 seasons. 

And the only Revis parallel is the one where you said everyone else was making stuff up, that Revis wasn't seeking $16M and would take $12M/year from us. That was 100% wrong back then and Wilkerson isn't seeking a team-friendly deal now (and for the record, neither would I if I were him).

Mo was seeking nearly that much BEFORE his career year, when he wasn't a FA, and had to play one more season while risking a career-ending injury. A player in that situation takes a little less reward for a lot more security. Sometimes a player bets on himself and wins, sometimes players lose. In this case Mo won, and he'd be an idiot to accept the same money or less after taking on $50M+ of risk by himself.

2018 is 3 seasons from now. It isn't procrastinating. It's that a team doesn't sign a player to a $15M/year contract (or more, for all we know) when they have 2 equally or greater talented players already on the roster for less than half that combined. And if we're not contenders now, and are just planning for 2018 and beyond, then do the Idzik thing and save the money for a rainy day when spending it will have some realistic benefit. I'm not suggesting that at all, despite your allusion to that sentiment. I'm saying spend it all but spend it on positions where we have nothing, not on a position where we're in good to great shape without him.

Like I said, we're not going to agree on this. I think Mo is a terrific player who I'd miss, but he's not a great or irreplaceable player and certainly a player who can get taken out of games too easily. 

- No one is claiming he's an edge rusher Sperm, literally no one. You are, OTOH, holding him to a standard as a pass rusher like an edge rusher - which goes to show just how good an interior pass rusher he is. He just picked up his second double digit sack playing a role on defense not known for picking up sacks. We can play the "take away sacks because they don't come at the perfect time" game with any player in the league - it's a complete and utter waste of time.

The Revis parallel is that the Jets refuse to pay their best player in his prime in lieu of imaginary and unnamed QBs and players that really don't even exist (which is why we never get any actual names going). I said none of those things, and again - folks like yourself expected a ton of guaranteed money he never got that winter. That claim was also 100% wrong, and neither the Bucs, Pats, or the Jets have anything to regret about the deals he got.

2018 is right around the corner, and all you're doing is setting up having just Williams on the DL among the current group. While you may deem throwing away two seasons for the hell of it, that's good bye to cheap Richardson and most of the cheap years of Williams - more poor planning for the sake of what direction here?

We can agree that neither is going to agree here. Wilkerson is more than just a terrific player, he's a top tier player in the prime of his prime on a roster with little in the way of serious commitments moving forward. You can insist until the cows come home that he gets taken out of games too easily, but it's a generic and baseless knock that has little meaning and is something said about anyone come time to pay up. There's no substance to it, and the Jets are far better off with WIlkerson than without.

 

[BroadwayJets]

17 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Considering what he's already planted the seeds for as far as demands, there's a pretty good shot he leaves. If they did trade Mo or let him walk, Richardson's not giving any discounts because fans on a message board think he has no leverage. He has plenty of leverage - at least one more year on his rookie deal, probably two - and doesn't have to sign anything for a price he doesn't want to.

You only need to pay one. There's no need or even all that much reason to keep both. One represents a much better investment than the other precisely because of those off the field issues.

- No one is claiming he's an edge rusher Sperm, literally no one. You are, OTOH, holding him to a standard as a pass rusher like an edge rusher - which goes to show just how good an interior pass rusher he is. He just picked up his second double digit sack playing a role on defense not known for picking up sacks. We can play the "take away sacks because they don't come at the perfect time" game with any player in the league - it's a complete and utter waste of time.

The Revis parallel is that the Jets refuse to pay their best player in his prime in lieu of imaginary and unnamed QBs and players that really don't even exist (which is why we never get any actual names going). I said none of those things, and again - folks like yourself expected a ton of guaranteed money he never got that winter. That claim was also 100% wrong, and neither the Bucs, Pats, or the Jets have anything to regret about the deals he got.

2018 is right around the corner, and all you're doing is setting up having just Williams on the DL among the current group. While you may deem throwing away two seasons for the hell of it, that's good bye to cheap Richardson and most of the cheap years of Williams - more poor planning for the sake of what direction here?

We can agree that neither is going to agree here. Wilkerson is more than just a terrific player, he's a top tier player in the prime of his prime on a roster with little in the way of serious commitments moving forward. You can insist until the cows come home that he gets taken out of games too easily, but it's a generic and baseless knock that has little meaning and is something said about anyone come time to pay up. There's no substance to it, and the Jets are far better off with WIlkerson than without.

 

There are 3 drafts and 3 FA periods in which we can address the loss of Sheldon in 2018 in that scenario... 

[SenorGato]

Just now, BroadwayJets said:

There are 3 drafts and 3 FA periods in which we can address the loss of Sheldon in 2018 in that scenario... 

3 drafts to add cheap talent around Wilkerson too, which beats the sh*t out of replacing your best (Wilkeson) and third best DL (Richardson) while still looking for a long term solution at QB.

[BroadwayJets]

Just now, SenorGato said:

3 drafts to add cheap talent around Wilkerson too, which beats the sh*t out of replacing your best (Wilkeson) and third best DL (Richardson) while still looking for a long term solution at QB.

Are you considering Williams or Snacks the second best? 

[SenorGato]

2 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

Are you considering Williams or Snacks the second best? 

With an eye on the future - Williams, who will eventually swap places with Wilkerson and be first. Richardson will be hunting Sasquatch up in the Pacific Northwest.

[BroadwayJets]

Just now, SenorGato said:

As far as moving forward - Williams, who will eventually swap places with Wilkerson and be first.

Ok... so imagine that is the case right now. If (in your words), Sheldon is years behind Wilkerson, that means Williams is in between them, no? So we agreed that while they have not produced the same, both of them as players are not very far apart. Wouldn't the statement you just made make you feel even better about not spending $14m on Wilkerson, and potentially getting a draft pick in return? 

Many people have said Sheldon might not receive any additional suspension. I think it'll be four games, but regardless, that character issue aside, just admit to me that you'd be okay with that if Williams continues to progress. Please, don't say "ohh but that's all wishful thinking", because the reality is, if Shel stays out of trouble, all is well. 

[SenorGato]

8 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

Ok... so imagine that is the case right now. If (in your words), Sheldon is years behind Wilkerson, that means Williams is in between them, no? So we agreed that while they have not produced the same, both of them as players are not very far apart. Wouldn't the statement you just made make you feel even better about not spending $14m on Wilkerson, and potentially getting a draft pick in return? 

Many people have said Sheldon might not receive any additional suspension. I think it'll be four games, but regardless, that character issue aside, just admit to me that you'd be okay with that if Williams continues to progress. Please, don't say "ohh but that's all wishful thinking", because the reality is, if Shel stays out of trouble, all is well. 

Let's - again - clarify....While RIchardson and Wilkerson are not extremely far apart on the field, they are extremely far apart off the field and one represents an insanely safer buy than the other. As I've said many, many times - my preference is to trade Richardson.

Good on those people, he's still shown to be a ten cent head who continues to get in trouble and has already set the table for incredibly high demands anyway. Hopefully the fresh air up in the Pac NW helps him stay out of trouble, but it's not something the Jets should be banking on happening in NY considering his track record. It is wishful thinking to hope this guy will suddenly stop being an a$$hole.

[BroadwayJets]

3 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Let's - again - clarify....While RIchardson and Wilkerson are not extremely far apart on the field, they are extremely far apart off the field and one represents an insanely safer buy than the other. As I've said many, many times - my preference is to trade Richardson.

Good on those people, he's still shown to be a ten cent head who continues to get in trouble and has already set the table for incredibly high demands anyway. Hopefully the fresh air up in the Pac NW helps him stay out of trouble, but it's not something the Jets should be banking on considering his track record. It is wishful thinking.

My God did you even read what I said? 

[SenorGato]

Just now, BroadwayJets said:

My God did you even read what I said? 

Was something not addressed? Are we going to go through the process of pulling teeth to find out?

[BroadwayJets]

Just now, SenorGato said:

Was something not addressed? Are we going to go through the process of pulling teeth to find out?

Let's just say, you're one with the sequoias, and leave it at that.

[SenorGato]

6 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

Let's just say, you're one with the sequoias, and leave it at that.

So yes, yes we will be pulling teeth to get a straight answer. Not surprising, and fine with me. I suppose it's rude to believe one cant both wishfully think Richardson will suddenly straighten up and answer a question at the same time. 

[BroadwayJets]

Just now, SenorGato said:

So yes, yes we will be pulling teeth to get a straight answer. Not surprising, and fine with me. I suppose it's rude to believe one cant both wishfully think Richardson will suddenly straighten up and answer questions at the same time. 

It's possible to change one's lifestyle, and I believe he has done so and will continue to stay out of trouble. I would take that chance, and you wouldn't. We're clear.

[SenorGato]

15 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

It's possible to change one's lifestyle, and I believe he has done so and will continue to stay out of trouble. I would take that chance, and you wouldn't. We're clear.

You believe he's done so...despite the fact that he's lined himself up for his second straight suspension after driving almost 150 MPH with an unregistered, loaded gun and a 12 YO in the car....Alright then, and I suppose I didn't actually miss anything in that post before. Good talk, lets break

 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

You believe he's done so...despite the fact that he's lined himself up for his second straight suspension after driving almost 150 MPH with an unregistered, loaded gun and a 12 YO in the car....

And it had already happened when he gave the big speech about how we were never going to hear about him getting into trouble again. It's probably a good thing nobody who's sold he's mended his ways has fifty million dollars to bet on it.

[Joe Jets fan]

2 hours ago, SenorGato said:

You believe he's done so...despite the fact that he's lined himself up for his second straight suspension after driving almost 150 MPH with an unregistered, loaded gun and a 12 YO in the car....Alright then, and I suppose I didn't actually miss anything in that post before. Good talk, lets break

 

Omg. How did he stay out of prison from the gun charge?  

 

Oh thats right, he was not charged, why you ask?   Because No crime was committed.  

He is not getting suspended.  But unlike Mo he will be playing for the jets in 2016

[SenorGato]

12 minutes ago, Joe Jets fan said:

Omg. How did he stay out of prison from the gun charge?  

Oh thats right, he was not charged, why you ask?   Because No crime was committed.  

He is not getting suspended.  But unlike Mo he will be playing for the jets in 2016

Don't be silly....The Winnipeg Jets aren't an NFL team. Winnipeg isn't even an NFL city. I hope the not guilty verdict gives you solace when he's out in Seattle enjoying Seattle things. You think he's a museum guy? The Museum of Flight is pretty cool. Coffee...weed....maaaad MILFs...he'll love it.