Good Teams Don't Allow Stud young Players to Reach FA (Harrison/ Wilkerson)

[SenorGato]

The Current Dynasty and best team over the last decade did so with the Help of Ted Washington,Vince Wilfork and Richard Seymour. The latter two were high draft picks and received large contracts. There last two first round picks were again on the Dline. 

Snacks is the best NT in the league. He's young and will cost less then Marcus Gilchrist and a ton of other scrubs. For 6m-6.5m a year we make teams one dimensional.  That is not replaceable.  We have the money to sign both - No reason we can't have both Snacks/Wilkerson. 

The way both guys were used by Belichick has more in common with Wilkerson than Harrison. Both of those guys played everywhere on the line, Seymour was drafted as a 3-4 DE.

The only 3-4 DL, at any position, in football better than Wilkerson is Watt. He's young, he's way better than Harrison against the pass, he's a great player, he doesn't cause trouble, the Jets use him in a variety of roles while Harrison can only play NT...It's really not even a contest on who to keep between the two players.

For $6-8 million a year, the Jets can make teams one dimension in a league that heavily favors that one dimension. A 2 down run stuffer is actually a very replaceable player - the Jets did it with an UDFA last time they had a top NT in football in Pouha.

[Shockwave]

Just to set the record straight here are the comparables and what I believe the contract will be for each player:

Wilkerson's easiest comparable is Cameron Jordon. They have similar numbers/age. Jordon signed a 6 year, 62 million dollar deal. 33.5 million was guaranteed in the deal. Another 5 Million is available through sack based incentives. So Mo's deal should be in the 10-11m dollar range. 

Harrison's easiest comparable is Dan Williams NT. He signed a 4 year 25m dollar contract with 15 million guaranteed. Thats somewhere around 6-6.5 million per year which is not far from what we gave that JAG Marcus Gilchrist. 

Both contracts are extremely doable with our cap situation. Those people saying Wilkerson wants 16m, and Snacks wants 10m I think are pretty far off. This is a comparables game and both of the above contracts were signed within the last year. 

[SenorGato]

I'm all for signing Snacks my question has always been if Mo is as great as people think why with 50 million to spend wasn't he signed by either Idzik or Mac?? And if they were going to sign him why bother to draft Williams??

Sorry - were Wilkerson and his reps obligated to extend before this year? The point you're attempting to make assumes things we don't know are true - mostly in the implication that these GMs weren't interested in extending Wilkerson.

Williams was the consensus player in the draft and wasn't expected to be available anywhere near the 6th pick. Why wouldn't they take that player? Who was the alternative? Not only that but DLs need to be 3-4 players deep, minimum, and the Jets had two FAs coming up this offseason.

[neckdemon]

We are going to have 30m in cap room this year.  We are going to have 40m in cap room next year. As of now were going to have like 100m in 2018. 

We have the money. I don't understand why people don't get this. 

 

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-jets/

 

so....let's spend all our cap room on the defensive line...where we are still stacked without wilk? i get that richardson is a risk....but he is also a risk that is under our control for 2 more years. wilkerson is too expensive to keep.......we have to bring our offense up to a higher level and be able to keep it there. having a superunit defensive line is not going to win you a superbowl.....we don't have any von millers. we need to keep snacks

[neckdemon]

Name the "Smart teams your mentioning". 

Smart teams like the Patriots lock up their UDFA like Danny Woodhead, or Dion Lewis extremely early. They never let it get to this point. Letting the Best young NT in the game get to Free Agency is never "Smart". The Pats nor any good team would never let it happen. 

i aree with re-signing snacks. we have to let wilk walk though. if we can tag and trade that would be optimal....its unlikely though

[SenorGato]

Just to set the record straight here are the comparables and what I believe the contract will be for each player:

Wilkerson's easiest comparable is Cameron Jordon. They have similar numbers/age. Jordon signed a 6 year, 62 million dollar deal. 33.5 million was guaranteed in the deal. Another 5 Million is available through sack based incentives. So Mo's deal should be in the 10-11m dollar range. 

Harrison's easiest comparable is Dan Williams NT. He signed a 4 year 25m dollar contract with 15 million guaranteed. Thats somewhere around 6-6.5 million per year which is not far from what we gave that JAG Marcus Gilchrist. 

Both contracts are extremely doable with our cap situation. Those people saying Wilkerson wants 16m, and Snacks wants 10m I think are pretty far off. This is a comparables game and both of the above contracts were signed within the last year. 

Wilkerson is an outright better player than Jordan, which is a testament to how good Wilkerson is rather than a knock on Jordan.

so....let's spend out cap room on the defensive line...where we are still stacked without wilk? i get that richardson is a ris....but he is also a risk that is under our control for 2 more years. wilkerson is too expensive to keep.......we have to bring our offense up to a higher level and be able to keep it there. having a superunit defensive line is not going to win you a superbowl.....we don't have any von millers

No - a $6-8 two down run stuffer is too expensive to keep. The closest thing the Jets have to a Von Miller is Wilkerson right now, he's damn close, and that's worth every penny.

[DoubleDecker]

News just broke. Megatron retiring

Man Megatron too!? Can't blame him but this is sad?

[neckdemon]

Wilkerson is an outright better player than Jordan, which is a testament to how good Wilkerson is rather than a knock on Jordan.

No - a $6-8 two down run stuffer is too expensive to keep. The closest thing the Jets have to a Von Miller is Wilkerson right now, he's damn close, and that's worth every penny.

you think wilkerson affects a game the way von miller does? no way in hell. wilkerson is a pretty good defensive end. he would not have been nearly what he was if snacks wasn't there occupying the interior like a ******* boss. 3-4 defense NEEDS a great nose tackle. what is doesn't need is 3 high end defensive ends

[SenorGato]

you think wilkerson affects a game the way von miller does? no way in hell. wilkerson is a pretty good defensive end. he would not have been nearly what he was if snacks wasn't there occupying the interior like a ******* boss

Different ways, but similar degrees...You know who doesn't really come close at all? A pure run stuffer like Harrison.

Wilkerson is an elite defense end that can line up and play strong run and pass defense at 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 NT, 4-3 NT, 4-3 UT...What if Wilkerson wasn't there to take the attention off their former UDFA NT, would Snacks be anywhere near as effective in his much more limited, less demanding role?

[Savage69]

Different ways, but similar degrees...You know who doesn't really come close at all? A pure run stuffer like Harrison.

Wilkerson is an elite defense end. What if Wilkerson wasn't there to take the attention off their former UDFA NT, would Snacks be anywhere near as effective in his much more limited, less demanding role?

You have it backwards Mo didn't really shine till Snacks and Sheldon became starters..

[SenorGato]

You have it backwards Mo didn't really shine till Snacks and Sheldon became starters..

Wilkerson's been one of the best 3-4 DL in football since his rookie year. Harrison was only taken a year later and didn't take off until 2013 when Wilkerson and Richardson surrounded him on the DL.

[neckdemon]

Different ways, but similar degrees...You know who doesn't really come close at all? A pure run stuffer like Harrison.

Wilkerson is an elite defense end that can line up and play strong run and pass defense at 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 NT, 4-3 NT, 4-3 UT...What if Wilkerson wasn't there to take the attention off their former UDFA NT, would Snacks be anywhere near as effective in his much more limited, less demanding role?

here is the deal....straight up. if you don't have a good nose tackle then you don't have a 3-4 defense. its that simple. 

[Shockwave]

Wilkerson is an outright better player than Jordan, which is a testament to how good Wilkerson is rather than a knock on Jordan.

Who is his comparable in your mind?

IMO theres no better comparable. Drafted in the same draft, same age, height etc. Both played some 4-3 and 3-4. 

Wilkerson stats so far:  36.5 Sacks. 

Jordon Stats so far:  39 Sacks. 

Cameron Jordon has been to two Pro Bowls and is a team Captain. Mo was elected to his first pro bowl this year. 

[Shockwave]

Different ways, but similar degrees...You know who doesn't really come close at all? A pure run stuffer like Harrison.

Wilkerson is an elite defense end that can line up and play strong run and pass defense at 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, NT, 4-3 NT, 4-3 UT...What if Wilkerson wasn't there to take the attention off their former UDFA NT, would Snacks be anywhere near as effective in his much more limited, less demanding role?

Again we need to sign BOTH guys. But on running downs Damon Harrison is more effective then just about any player in the league. You can go look at Pro Football Focus, Watch the games, or just read Bill Belichick say it below. So the question would actually be: Would Wilkerson and Williams be nearly as effective against the run without Snacks destroying the middle of the line? 

Bill Belichick praises Jets nose tackle Damon Harrison

Updated December 23, 2015 8:41 PM
By Kimberley A. Martin  kimberley.martin@newsday.com

 Reprints  + -

Nose tackle Damon Harrison #94 of the New York Jets celebrates after a four-yard tackle for loss in the second quarter against the New England Patriots at Gillette Stadium on September 12, 2013 in Foxboro, Massachusetts. Photo Credit: Jared Wickerham/Getty Images 

FLORHAM PARK. N.J. — Damon Harrison may not be as well-known as his defensive linemates, but Patriots coach Bill Belichick had plenty of praise for the 27-year-old nose tackle.

Harrison, who goes by the nickname “Snacks,” was the only Jets’ defense player Belichick singled out during his conference call with beat writers on Wednesday. 

“I think Harrison has had a great year, really hard to block, very disruptive,” he said when asked about the Jets’ defensive line. 

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And Belichick’s praise of Harrison — who is seeking a big payday after signing his restricted free-agency tender offer ($2.356 million) for 2015 — continued in his news conference with Patriots writers. 

“He might be the best of all of them against the run,” he said of Harrison, who has 62 tackles and a half-sack. “He’s got great leverage, reads blocks well, hard to block, penetrates. He’s not just a stay on the line of scrimmage guy. He makes plays in the backfield or knocks the blockers back into the backfield so the runner has to either give ground or cut back into unblocked guys and then they clean them up . . . .I’m not saying they’re not good players, but he’s not only disruptive but he’s also been very productive. He’s a major force.”

[SenorGato]

here is the deal....straight up. if you don't have a good nose tackle then you don't have a 3-4 defense. its that simple. 

Sure, there's half a dozen competent and cheaper ones in FA. Go sign one of Knighton, Ngata, Rubin, Mebane, or Raji, and make the usual late round pick or UDFA signing. 

I'll say it again - NT is a position the Jets have never paid a premium for and still got top quality production from with guys like Pouha, Harrison, and Ferguson. The most they've ever spent on one was a 3rd, a 5th, and a couple million dollars on Jenkins - who wasn't even a 3-4 NT before joining the Jets.

Finding cheap NTs and getting production is one of the few clever things this franchise does. Let's not take that away, and keep the much, much, much better player. It's not even like Wilkerson can't play NT, he's done that too. 

[SenorGato]

Who is his comparable in your mind?

IMO theres no better comparable. Drafted in the same draft, same age, height etc. Both played some 4-3 and 3-4. 

Wilkerson stats so far:  36.5 Sacks. 

Jordon Stats so far:  39 Sacks. 

Cameron Jordon has been to two Pro Bowls and is a team Captain. Mo was elected to his first pro bowl this year. 

Watt

Wilkerson is to Watt as Jordan is to Wilkerson...not AS superlatively good.

[DoubleDecker]

Have to try to sign Mo.  If by any chance he comes to you with Suh and/or Watt money, well thanks for the memories bro.  If he doesn't budge at that point the jets should try to negotiate a trade.

[neckdemon]

The way both guys were used by Belichick has more in common with Wilkerson than Harrison. Both of those guys played everywhere on the line, Seymour was drafted as a 3-4 DE.

The only 3-4 DL, at any position, in football better than Wilkerson is Watt. He's young, he's way better than Harrison against the pass, he's a great player, he doesn't cause trouble, the Jets use him in a variety of roles while Harrison can only play NT...It's really not even a contest on who to keep between the two players.

For $6-8 million a year, the Jets can make teams one dimension in a league that heavily favors that one dimension. A 2 down run stuffer is actually a very replaceable player - the Jets did it with an UDFA last time they had a top NT in football in Pouha.

khalil mack

[SenorGato]

 

 

Again we need to sign BOTH guys. But on running downs Damon Harrison is more effective then just about any player in the league. You can go look at Pro Football Focus, Watch the games, or just read Bill Belichick say it below. So the question would actually be: Would Wilkerson and Williams be nearly as effective against the run without Snacks destroying the middle of the line? 

They'd get over not signing Harrison quicker than Wilkerson. Harrison is the much easier to replace player. There is no need to pay a premium for run defense, particularly when all of Richardson/Wilkerson/Williams are very good run stuffers in their own right while offering much more against the pass.

 

 

[SenorGato]

khalil mack

is not a 3-4 DL. He's also not a candidate to replace Wilkerson, not being available for another 4-5+ years.

[neckdemon]

is not a 3-4 DL. He's also not a candidate to replace Wilkerson, not being available for another 4-5+ years.

 

wasn't paying attention to the 3-4 part. just saying he's a better d-lineman 

 

anyway we already have replacement for wilkerson. he fell to us in the draft last year. we are not going to be looking for another DE when we let wilkerson walk

[SenorGato]

wasn't paying attention to the 3-4 part. just saying he's a better d-lineman 

Mack plays LB and was drafted as one.

[neckdemon]

Mack plays LB and was drafted as one.

hmm shows my ignorance then. i thought he was a DE

 

edit....ok maybe not so ignorant. he apparently got first team all-pro at both DE and OLB. he is definitely a better player than wilkerson

[SenorGato]

hmm shows my ignorance then. i thought he was a DE

 

edit....ok maybe not so ignorant. he apparently got first team all-pro at both DE and OLB. he is definitely a better player than wilkerson

He still isn't a 3-4 DL, a candidate to replace Wilkerson anytime soon, or really relevant to the conversation at all. Not to mention that he's been a great player for one year, whereas Wilkerson has been doing it for half a decade+ already and is less than two years older.

[Matt39]

I think we should resign Mo as he's probably our best (young) player....but he's not a superstar either. We dont have any of those maybe besides Marshall.

[Matt39]

He still isn't a 3-4 DL, a candidate to replace Wilkerson anytime soon, or really relevant to the conversation at all. Not to mention that he's been a great player for one year, whereas Wilkerson has been doing it for half a decade+ already and is less than two years older.

Rams play a 4-3 I know, but Aaron Donald is special and a better interior player than Mo.

[SenorGato]

I think we should resign Mo as he's probably our best (young) player....but he's not a superstar either. We dont have any of those maybe besides Marshall.

That has much more to do with PR and the viewing masses ability to appreciate nuance on the foozeball field. Marshall's late career surge with the Jets seems to have gotten him that title, no reason Wilkerson's status can't elevate as more eyes are drawn to the Jets.

[Matt39]

That has much more to do with PR and the viewing masses ability to appreciate nuance.

Donald's a superstar in St Louis.

[neckdemon]

He still isn't a 3-4 DL, a candidate to replace Wilkerson anytime soon, or really relevant to the conversation at all. Not to mention that he's been a great player for one year, whereas Wilkerson has been doing it for half a decade+ already and is less than two years older.

i already said i missed the 3-4 part. either way....i think you are missing the point that if we let wilk walk we will not be replacing him. our line will be williams, harrison, richardson. 

[SenorGato]

Donald's a superstar in St Louis.

Another guy not much younger than Wilkerson, not even two years, with less of a track record. This one has done twice what Wilkerson has been doing all decade as an all around force on the DL.

Again - more PR and the viewing publics' inability to appreciate nuance on the foozeball field.

[SenorGato]

Rams play a 4-3 I know, but Aaron Donald is special and a better interior player than Mo.

Wilkerson's just as special and at least his equal overall as a player, and he does it in way more roles. We're talking about a guy in Wilkerson that has performed to a high level on the DL in the NFL since he was 21 years old. Guys like Donald and Mack didn't even enter the league until they were 23. Yes, they're elite players, but Wilkerson isn't a superstar because football isn't the kind of sport that asks people to appreciate a player like Wilkerson.

If Wilkerson were handled by a better organization capable of generating any kind of positive press for their players - he'd be painted as the RIchard Seymour of his generation. As it is...he merely has to settle for setting himself a HOF track from the go and being perpetually underrated until his organization can get it's sh*t together.

[Matt39]

 

I've watched everyone of Wilkersons games. In context to the rest of the league he's a good player. To our organization, he's a superstar because our drafts have been historically bad. There are a bunch of other dlinemen out there who flash a lot more than Mo does. 

[SenorGato]

I've watched everyone of Wilkersons games. In context to the rest of the league he's a good player. To our organization, he's a superstar because our drafts have been historically bad. There are a bunch of other dlinemen out there who flash a lot more than Mo does. 

How do you get the italicized conclusion from just the bold part? He's a consistently elite performer relative to the whole league, not just the Jets. The only 3-4 DL clearly better than him this decade has been Watt. Wilkerson's lack of hype and fan attention shouldn't take away from how good he really is.

[Matt39]

How do you get the italicized conclusion from just the bold part? He's a consistently elite performer relative to the whole league, not just the Jets. The only 3-4 DL clearly better than him this decade has been Watt, a superstar player without the bulllsh*t or hype. 

Michael Bennett is better than Mo.

[SenorGato]

Michael Bennett is better than Mo.

Bennett's a 4-3 end and probably not as good as Wilkerson. Wilkerson is also five years younger, both guys have been very good or better since 2011.

Bennett actually seems a lot like a smaller, older, 4-3 version of Wilkerson. Wilkerson should hire whoever does Bennett's PR.