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Trade down?


TuscanyTile2

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31 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Anyone who didn't realise the Jets 2004 NFL Draft was an absolute f*cking disaster has to be trolling. It was pretty obvious the second they gave up their first rounder where it was going. Heath Miller. Traded for Doug Jolley and Mike f*cking Nugent. 

 

the draft was horrible, that is not what this discussion was about.  it's about the trade itself.

 

and heath Miller would have been run out of town.  he went to perfect spot w/ future HOF QB heading into his prime.  we didn't have that.

30 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

Come on.

Sanchez was a top 10 draft pick.

If he was half as good as you claim, he'd still be the starting QB for the NYJ's.

BTW, he was just along for the ride in those playoff games.

you don't win 4 road playoff games w/ a QB along for the ride.  In 2008 w/ similar talent, a HOF QB, no Brady and a creampuff sched we couldn't even make the playoffs.

4 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Mark Sanchez was along for the ride but he had a couple of good games. And a lot of really bad ones. He is just capable of being a game manager and that's only with a limited playbook. There is talent there but not from the neck up. 

nothing wrong w/ being a game manager especially one that can rise up in big spots.  He was not along for the ride, he was a key contributor.

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2 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

And yet you completely skirt around the point again.

Not skirting around anything, they had reports of what they expected to happen, sometimes that doesn't work out.  they took a gamble, they got the guys they wanted but it didn't work out.  

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A great draft trade requires one of two things-being informed, or receiving incredible value.  If you are getting equal value, then you must have the premise that you are informed of what you are actually giving up.  The Jets had no idea what they were giving up because they had no idea who might fall to them because they traded prior to the draft.  Without information the only other way a trade could be deemed great is if you get immense value in return, ie much higher value than the points chart would dictate.  Trading out of the #1 or #2 overall pick pre-draft generally results in incredible returns, even though you don't know for sure what you will get with those returns.  The payoff is you get so much in return that chances are it will trump the value you gave away simply by the odds in numbers.  The Jets had zero information, and at best received only equal value for the picks they gave up.  Therefore it was an awful trade with or without hindsight.  Hindsight only confirms it even further.     

@nyjunc

Debate it. Tell me again how getting nothing more than fair market value at best is a good decision with the absence of information.

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3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you don't understand anything about this process.  

The only thing I don't understand is your entire hypothesis - that trading down to target a guy in Rd 2 who is expected to go in Rd 1 is somehow a stroke of genius???

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1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

the draft was horrible, that is not what this discussion was about.  it's about the trade itself.

 

and heath Miller would have been run out of town.  he went to perfect spot w/ future HOF QB heading into his prime.  we didn't have that.

you don't win 4 road playoff games w/ a QB along for the ride.  In 2008 w/ similar talent, a HOF QB, no Brady and a creampuff sched we couldn't even make the playoffs.

nothing wrong w/ being a game manager especially one that can rise up in big spots.  He was not along for the ride, he was a key contributor.

Look not in all 4 playoff Ws. But you have to give him credit the same way you do a starting pitcher who gives a team innings in a win but isn't that good. He had every chance to stand out with the Jets who wanted him to succeed and he blew it. And those playoff wins were seven years ago. Many players had a good game in 2009-10 like Thomas Jones and are long gone from the NFL. I give Mark credit for surviving and having a career. It will be interesting to see if he wins the starters job in Denver. I think they will eventually get Kap because SF doesn't want him. The 49ers will eat contract. 

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15 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

@nyjunc

Debate it. Tell me again how getting nothing more than fair market value at best is a good decision with the absence of information.

Of course, as we know teams have no clue what to expect going into any draft.  they just go blindly into each draft.  you got me.:rolleyes:

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15 minutes ago, jamesr said:

The only thing I don't understand is your entire hypothesis - that trading down to target a guy in Rd 2 who is expected to go in Rd 1 is somehow a stroke of genius???

I didn't say they targeted a guy in rd 2, they were comfortable w/ what they could get in round 2 and got a starting TE and multiple picks back which were used to maneuver for Kerry Rhodes who became a 2nd team all pro sfaety.

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14 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Look not in all 4 playoff Ws. But you have to give him credit the same way you do a starting pitcher who gives a team innings in a win but isn't that good. He had every chance to stand out with the Jets who wanted him to succeed and he blew it. And those playoff wins were seven years ago. Many players had a good game in 2009-10 like Thomas Jones and are long gone from the NFL. I give Mark credit for surviving and having a career. It will be interesting to see if he wins the starters job in Denver. I think they will eventually get Kap because SF doesn't want him. The 49ers will eat contract. 

he was very good in all 4 playoff wins, he didn't have a single bad playoff game in all 6 including the losses.  

He was not going to be elite, he wasn't going to be a Brady but he's a solid guy you can win with.  I am sure Elway is looking at more QBs, I expect they will draft one and if he is ready to play right away he will and if not he sits behind Mark until he is ready.

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8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he was very good in all 4 playoff wins, he didn't have a single bad playoff game in all 6 including the losses.  

He was not going to be elite, he wasn't going to be a Brady but he's a solid guy you can win with.  I am sure Elway is looking at more QBs, I expect they will draft one and if he is ready to play right away he will and if not he sits behind Mark until he is ready.

The Jets thought he was going to be elite. And a ten year starter. They treated him like he was the Prince of Belair. No competition, the HC tatooed his name (or number) on his ass (or wherever) the whole magilla. I think he could do ok with Denver if Kubiak reigns him in. In other words a running offense with basic passing plays. He seems to excel in practice because he has a lot of physical talent but in a game he melts down. And can't read defenses to save his life. Opposing Dbs love to play against him because they can out maneuver him. He is a completely undisciplined player even after seven years in the league. When he gets a little success it goes to his head and he starts dreaming he is John Elway. Yeah, in his dreams...:wub:

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Just now, Rangers9 said:

The Jets thought he was going to be elite. And a ten year starter. They treated him like he was the Prince of Belair. No competition, the HC tatooed his name on his ass (or wherever) the whole magilla. I think he could do ok with Denver if Kubiak reigns him in. In other words a running offense with basic passing plays. He seems to excel in practice because he has a lot of physical talent but in a game he melts down. And can't read defenses to save his life. Opposing Dbs love to play against him because they can out maneuver him. He is a completely undisciplined player even after seven years in the league. When he gets a little success it goes to his head and he starts dreaming he is John Elway. Yeah, in his dreams...:wub:

the elite guys are Brady, peyton when he was playing, Rodgers, maybe Brees and ben.  it's a very small list.  the only QBs expected to be elite are those rare "can't miss" guys like Luck.  

who did we want to compete w/ him? we threw away Chad a year earlier, we had to let go of favre, were there other good QBs out there to compete?

How did those opposing DBs do against him in January?

he is what he is, he'll make plays and he'll make mistakes.  The one thing I really liked about him was the stage wasn't too big for him, he didn't play scared.  Fitz played scared week 17.

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Just now, nyjunc said:

the elite guys are Brady, peyton when he was playing, Rodgers, maybe Brees and ben.  it's a very small list.  the only QBs expected to be elite are those rare "can't miss" guys like Luck.  

who did we want to compete w/ him? we threw away Chad a year earlier, we had to let go of favre, were there other good QBs out there to compete?

How did those opposing DBs do against him in January?

he is what he is, he'll make plays and he'll make mistakes.  The one thing I really liked about him was the stage wasn't too big for him, he didn't play scared.  Fitz played scared week 17.

Again you're talking playoff games that were 6 and 7 years ago. It's ancient history. And he was ok but not great in most of those games. The Jets expected great success from Mark and for him to be a Phillip Rivers kind of player. He isn't but he has a career. 

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22 hours ago, nyjunc said:

was actually an excellent trade.  the problem was the guys we were targeting, bash the picks and the guys we want but the trade itself was excellent.  we moved down a little, got a vet TE and still drafted the 2 guys we wanted(Miller and Nugent) plus got more picks which helped us get Kerry Rhodes who was very good for a few years.  Bash the scouting that led to Miler and Nugent all you want, can't bash the actual trade.

 

22 hours ago, nyjunc said:

 

 Again guys, the trade itself was a good one.  we weren't taking Heath or Rodgers, if we were amnd thought we could get them by moving down then it wouldn't have been a good trade.  The jets wanted Justin Miller and Mike Nugent, they got both guys after moving down.  AGAIN, criticize the scouting to want those players but the trade itself was an excellent one.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, nyjunc said:

that's great but the trade itself was excellent.  would you have been happier staying put and drafting Justin Miller?

I will triple or quadruple down, it was an excellent trade- AGAIN the trade itself.  the players we took not so good but would Jet fans have been happy taking those guys w/ our 1st and 2nd rd picks and then not getting Rhodes?  

it's very simple, try to pay attention.  Going into that draft all the rumblings were we loved Justin Miller and Mike Nugent and that in the first 2 rounds we were targeting both.  We traded down, acquired a starter and multiple picks and still got those players.  Those players weren't very good so again bash the scouting all you want but the trade itself was fantastic.

 

17 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Jolley and thinking they could trade back and get the guys they wanted.  again, criticize his evaluation of the drafted players and Jolley but nothing wrong w/ the trade itself.

 

people have to remember how much they hated Becht and how we got nothing in the pass game from the TE.  

 

why? b/c we acquired more picks, acquired a starting TE, got the 2 guys we were targeting in rds 1 and 2 anyway and eventually got Rhodes.  That's why.  if the trade cost us a guy we wanted who turned out to be good I'd say the opposite but it didn't.

So all through this thread you've been adamant that the Jets were targeting Miller & Nugent. 

I then asked about the wisdom of trading out of Rd 1, where one of those targets - Miller - was supposedly going to be picked.

Your answer -

14 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I didn't say they targeted a guy in rd 2, they were comfortable w/ what they could get in round 2 and got a starting TE and multiple picks back which were used to maneuver for Kerry Rhodes who became a 2nd team all pro sfaety.

But you've said all along they were targeting Miller, a supposed Rd 1 pick.

So I ask again, where's the wisdom in trading out of a round where your top target is supposedly going to be picked???

 

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15 hours ago, chirorob said:

Mike T traded down with the Bears to get Thomas Jones.

That was an excellent trade.

It was a great trade but we traded down in the second round in that one.  I think the poster was referring to the last time we traded down in the first round.

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15 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Again you're talking playoff games that were 6 and 7 years ago. It's ancient history. And he was ok but not great in most of those games. The Jets expected great success from Mark and for him to be a Phillip Rivers kind of player. He isn't but he has a career. 

I understand that, he's gone and not coming back but I am discussing what he did for us.  It sucks that we haven't made the playoffs in that long but I appreciate what he did.  that is kind of my point w/ all my defending of him.  Not to say he is great or would have been but I think he gets to much crap from Jet fans.

On Philip Rivers, the man was handed the keys to a SB team and only made one title game and that one title game SD made when Rivers got hurt and his backup led GW TD drive.  I would never want a Rivers type, he's a stat guy and nothing more.

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7 minutes ago, jamesr said:

 

 

 

So all through this thread you've been adamant that the Jets were targeting Miller & Nugent. 

I then asked about the wisdom of trading out of Rd 1, where one of those targets - Miller - was supposedly going to be picked.

Your answer -

But you've said all along they were targeting Miller, a supposed Rd 1 pick.

So I ask again, where's the wisdom in trading out of a round where your top target is supposedly going to be picked???

 

The wisdom is if you think you can get the guys you want later yo move down, get extra picks, get extra players and have to spend less $ on those players.  

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1 minute ago, PatsFanTX said:

How the hell is 12/23, 100 yards and an INT considered "very good"?

If Kaeding doesn't miss 3 chip shot FG's, Taco would be eating hot dogs on the sidelines.

he outplayed Philip Rivers that day, don't let the #s fool you.  He made multiple big plays to help us win and Rivers made the big mistake.  we played a conservative game and when we got a double digit lead we stopped passing so the #s don't look as good.

One of the kicks Kaeding missed was 57 yds, how was that a chip shot?  Kaeding missed 2 makable FGs, even if he makes then we have a great chance to win.

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23 hours ago, bgivs21 said:

What player is a team after the Jets going to trade up for? I doubt the Jets trade down this year. Unless Lynch is there & the Jets don't like him I can't see it happening. 

That might be the only scenario that makes sense. Denver may offer a second rounder and their pick at 31. I would take that, and draft Connor Cook at that spot and then enjoy two picks in round two.

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2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Can the mods now move this thread to the stupid never ending illogical nyjunc arguments sub forum please.

Why the heck are they discussing Mark Sanchez on draft day 2016?  Haven't we suffered enough?   

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1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

The wisdom is if you think you can get the guys you want later yo move down, get extra picks, get extra players and have to spend less $ on those players.  

What you call wisdom, I call luck. ;) As I said before, anyone can use the line that they "got their guy" to make themselves look clever with hindsight.

Still doesn't explain doing such a trade before you see how the pieces fall into place. Fair enough to trade down when you're on the clock, and the guy you want is still there. But to trade down well before the draft and still expect a guy with first round value to be there in round 2? I'm not buying it.

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1 minute ago, jamesr said:

What you call wisdom, I call luck. ;) As I said before, anyone can use the line that they "got their guy" to make themselves look clever with hindsight.

Still doesn't explain doing such a trade before you see how the pieces fall into place. Fair enough to trade down when you're on the clock, and the guy you want is still there. But to trade down well before the draft and still expect a guy with first round value to be there in round 2? I'm not buying it.

that is a fair.

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Of course, as we know teams have no clue what to expect going into any draft.  they just go blindly into each draft.  you got me.:rolleyes:

You're a joke. What about that trade gave a sense of urgency to have made it prior to the draft and only get fair market trade value? Losing Doug Jolley's 300 yards? Really? Explain to me WHY that trade had to take place the day before on not on draft day?

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9 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

You're a joke. What about that trade gave a sense of urgency to have made it prior to the draft and only get fair market trade value? Losing Doug Jolley's 300 yards? Really? Explain to me WHY that trade had to take place the day before on not on draft day?

I have no idea, when I get my Delorean and we go back in time to what was going on I can give you a better answer,

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I have no idea, when I get my Delorean and we go back in time to what was going on I can give you a better answer,

Exactly, as always when you've been proven wrong you resort to childish stupidity. You might need that Delorean after all, maybe then you would realize it was a sh*t ass trade.

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1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

Exactly, as always when you've been proven wrong you resort to childish stupidity. You might need that Delorean after all, maybe then you would realize it was a sh*t ass trade.

nothing has been proven wrong, you asked about something none of us have any idea about.  the bottom line is we were looking at Miller and Nugent early in that draft, we got them, a starting TE, extra picks which led to kerry Rhodes.  it was a GREAT trade.

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On 4/27/2016 at 9:59 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I can't remember the last time the jets traded down in the 1st round (Parcells the year we drafted Farrior?). Maybe this would be a good year to do it considering some team might want Pax Lynch and we need to recoup picks.  

Every year is a good year to trade down, unless your team is young and full of depth.  IMO.

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