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Hackenberg pick means nothing


Jetster

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30 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Then how can you say " There really is absolutely no reason to go forward with Ryan Fitzpatrick as our starting QB" if you have a reason to want him back? 

 

 

Because I think we have just as much chance to get to 8-8, 9-7 with Geno as we do with Fitz. I think facing the teams we'll face, Chan will call plays with Geno that will take advantage of his stronger arm, stretch the field & allow him more underneath check downs to get Forte into space. Teams play Fitz to TRY and force him to go deeper down field.

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22 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Because I think we have just as much chance to get to 8-8, 9-7 with Geno as we do with Fitz. I think facing the teams we'll face, Chan will call plays with Geno that will take advantage of his stronger arm, stretch the field & allow him more underneath check downs to get Forte into space. Teams play Fitz to TRY and force him to go deeper down field.

Dude, we were 10-6 last year with Fitz not 8-8 or 9-7. And you want to go backwards. It's not logical. As for saying we can't handle our schedule it's like you're giving up before we actually play the games. Come on now are we afraid of these opponents. And some of these teams aren't going to be as good as predicted. There will be busts and teams nobody expects to play well will win games. We'll see how it plays out. Stop the doom and gloom we're a pretty good team. 

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19 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Dude, we were 10-6 last year with Fitz not 8-8 or 9-7. And you want to go backwards. It's not logical. As for saying we can't handle our schedule it's like you're giving up before we actually play the games. Come on now are we afraid of these opponents. And some of these teams aren't going to be as good as predicted. There will be busts and teams nobody expects to play well will win games. We'll see how it plays out. Stop the doom and gloom we're a pretty good team. 

Fitz will not sign for 7 million, which seems to be the Jets line in the sand. I'm saying I would rather try & get Mo signed, than deal with Fitz agent trying to squeeze another year or 2 out of the Jets (I'm sure that's the sticking point). I could give 2 sh*ts what starting QBs are getting in this league right now, the smart thing is to not overpay or hamstring our future. Let all the young guns fight it out in camp. I personally think our defense is going to be lights out & although we're going to play better defenses this year, it's not like we've got a killers row of offenses on the slate. Steelers & Pats will be the best, Cincy lost 2 of their key depth WRs. Teams are so bereft of depth now that anything can happen regarding injuries ect. I completely understand fans with PSLs not wanting to "take a chance" on Geno or the young guys but this organization has to turn the page & take some gambles. Geno has way more experience now than Sanchez had & we rolled with him for 4 years. The Oline was much better but our defense in 2016 will be better I believe than our 2009/2010 version. 

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3 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Fitz will not sign for 7 million, which seems to be the Jets line in the sand. I'm saying I would rather try & get Mo signed, than deal with Fitz agent trying to squeeze another year or 2 out of the Jets (I'm sure that's the sticking point). I could give 2 sh*ts what starting QBs are getting in this league right now, the smart thing is to not overpay or hamstring our future. Let all the young guns fight it out in camp. I personally think our defense is going to be lights out & although we're going to play better defenses this year, it's not like we've got a killers row of offenses on the slate. Steelers & Pats will be the best, Cincy lost 2 of their key depth WRs. Teams are so bereft of depth now that anything can happen regarding injuries ect. I completely understand fans with PSLs not wanting to "take a chance" on Geno or the young guys but this organization has to turn the page & take some gambles. Geno has way more experience now than Sanchez had & we rolled with him for 4 years. The Oline was much better but our defense in 2016 will be better I believe than our 2009/2010 version. 

Fitz was more valuable to the team last year than Wilk was. And re-signing Wilk doesn't have to affect signing Fitz. You can keep both of them. But there were rumors the Jets wanted to trade Mo and not even for a 1st round pick. 

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6 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Fitz was more valuable to the team last year than Wilk was. And re-signing Wilk doesn't have to affect signing Fitz. You can keep both of them. But there were rumors the Jets wanted to trade Mo and not even for a 1st round pick. 

Maybe it was Chan Gailey that was the MVC, most valuable coach. Listen, I have no doubt that Fitz is the best at running an efficient offense right now, ie. finding his check downs ect. But that doesn't mean he has the highest ceiling behind center if that makes any sense. It's not like he didn't have his struggles, I thought he played terrible vs the Eagles, Giants for almost 4 quarters, Bills, Cowboys, we beat up on the bad defenses last year, and struggled against some bad defenses too. I just want to finally see a QB that can grip it & rip without having to have look like he's throwing a javelin. Rex has always had his number, I'm sure that's the game films our opponents will breakdown the most next year.

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2 hours ago, jetrider said:

How convenient. Personal stats mean nothing if you don't win. 

THis is a ridiculous argument.  Personal stats allow us to isolate what is the actual performance of an individual PLAYING A TEAM SPORT IN A TEAM GAME from those of his teammates.  They also allow us to compare players using metrics applicable to their position while minimizing the roles played in the overall outcome of the game by their teammates.

A related point is even if an individual player had great stats but his team lost the game, it is highly likely that loss was due to some other of his teammates, and conversely if the stats suck but his team won anyway, he should not really be taking credit for the win.

I think it helps to actually watch the games to realize the truth of the foregoing.  Not saying you don't actually watch the games, but your post has me wondering.

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2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

This is true. 3rd down Geno is probably the worst Geno. Late in the Raiders game on 3 and 1 he took a sack, a few series later he took a sack on 3rd and 2. Not a chance that happens with Fitz. Geno just cannot process what he wants to do with the ball fast enough to be a competent starting quarterback in the NFL. He's also very inaccurate on his throws.

I think in fact the problem is more general, meaning when the pressure is on he does worse in general.  He really shines in moments like the last game of the season against a Miami team that was in disruption, had nothing to play for, already had their tee times and bags backed, and the game also meant nothing to the Jets.

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1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Dude, we were 10-6 last year with Fitz not 8-8 or 9-7. And you want to go backwards. It's not logical. As for saying we can't handle our schedule it's like you're giving up before we actually play the games. Come on now are we afraid of these opponents. And some of these teams aren't going to be as good as predicted. There will be busts and teams nobody expects to play well will win games. We'll see how it plays out. Stop the doom and gloom we're a pretty good team. 

I agree.  Improvements elsewhere on the team can be expected, and should overcome any real increase in difficulty from SOS.

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The reason we drafted Hackenberg is real simple.  We don't have a franchise QB.  If we did then he wouldn't have been drafted.  They passed on Lynch likely because they don't feel he's a franchise level QB.  In fact passing on Lynch at 20 tells me they may have had Hackenberg rated higher than Lynch to begin with, or at the very least about even rated.  You don't pass on a guy you think is franchise potential at 20 when you need a franchise guy.  Personally I never liked Lynch.  He just doesn't look like an NFL QB to me.  That will be decided in a few years.   

The bottom line though is Fitz is not an answer for us.  He's a kid sized band aid on a gaping wound.  And in response to someone who said he DOESN'T have a noodle arm.....he absolutely does.  His arm was flat out exposed in week 17 BUF.  When we were going into the wind he was rendered useless.  Completely useless.  His wobbly ducks into a stiff wing are darn near embarrassing.  But I digress....  My personal feeling is the FO and coaching staff are hoping Hackenberg shows enough that he can take the job day 1 with the assumption Geno will be serviceable at best.  If Hack shows he can handle the playbook and decision making he's probably going to take the job day one unless Geno has a monster camp. 

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2 hours ago, Jetster said:

Maybe it was Chan Gailey that was the MVC, most valuable coach. Listen, I have no doubt that Fitz is the best at running an efficient offense right now, ie. finding his check downs ect. But that doesn't mean he has the highest ceiling behind center if that makes any sense. It's not like he didn't have his struggles, I thought he played terrible vs the Eagles, Giants for almost 4 quarters, Bills, Cowboys, we beat up on the bad defenses last year, and struggled against some bad defenses too. I just want to finally see a QB that can grip it & rip without having to have look like he's throwing a javelin. Rex has always had his number, I'm sure that's the game films our opponents will breakdown the most next year.

You're right in that Rex has had success against Gailey and been able to figure him out. But then again we lost to Buff in 2014 against Marrone esp that snow game which was an embarrassment and of course the famous Geno Smith worst game ever. And some of you want Geno over Fitz. 

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23 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

This is true. 3rd down Geno is probably the worst Geno. Late in the Raiders game on 3 and 1 he took a sack, a few series later he took a sack on 3rd and 2. Not a chance that happens with Fitz. Geno just cannot process what he wants to do with the ball fast enough to be a competent starting quarterback in the NFL. He's also very inaccurate on his throws.

Oh please with the baseless, automatic success story assigned to Fitzpatrick when he wasn't on the field. Fitz has earned no such benefit of the doubt in being careful or playing smart when the opposition has so many points on the board. For all we know Fitz would have thrown 2-3 interceptions late that game, since that was his m.o. in those opponent-has-points, late-game scenarios more than coming through in the clutch. (Judging from this past season, then the rationalization would be how we weren't going to win that game anyway and it was a team loss, and there would only be people pointing to his game stats to further rationalize that Fitz had played well enough to win.)

Absolutely rip on Geno for taking those sacks because he 100% deserves that criticism. It's infuriating, the way he does that. But contrasting that by automatically giving success credit to Fitzpatrick for a better woulda-happened result has no basis in reality. Particularly when Captain Awareness got knocked out of the game precisely for having a lack of situational awareness; this, despite repeated coaching reminders to slide or run OOB (in particular after he'd already secured the 1st down). Further, with a defender in Fitz's face, and with the game and season on the line, instead of taking or scrambling out of a late sack he instead threw a 3rd down pick against Buffalo; even Fitz's far worse outcome was absolved by people blaming Ferguson instead. 

Avoiding a sack doesn't automatically infer a better outcome with either of these two passers.

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Frankly neither of them (Fitz nor Geno) gives me confidence. The main differences in upside to me, after all the dust settles, are the ideas that Fitz has the higher floor because of continuity and what he brings from the neck up, and Geno has the higher ceiling because of what he brings from the neck down and the theoretical unknown of untapped potential. In the end, though, neither is likely to reach a high (or high enough) ceiling over time against normal competition, and certainly not against the higher level competition we'll face this year.  

The difference is one is already on the team for cheap, and the other is a FA who wants going rate starter money to return. If Fitz was ever going to be in a position to lead a team to the SB it would have been last year.  

Barring an against-the-odds reversal with Geno, this year's starter should keep the seat warm for Hackenberg or Petty to take over after those first half dozen games (or through this non-SB season if necessary). I would pay a little extra for Fitz to be that bridge player over Geno, and it seems so would the team, but I wouldn't pay that much more than high backup rates. Certainly wouldn't guarantee him any $ beyond the 2016 season unless the team had the option of retaining him at a backup's rate if kept (for example, they could give him $5M guaranteed next year but only if the team could lower his salary to $5M; no $5M guarantee that's part of a $10-15M base salary; low base salary guaranteed for 2017, or higher salary not-guaranteed). 

I still think they'll come to some agreement, though. 

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On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 0:29 PM, Big Blocker said:

THis is a ridiculous argument.  Personal stats allow us to isolate what is the actual performance of an individual PLAYING A TEAM SPORT IN A TEAM GAME from those of his teammates.  They also allow us to compare players using metrics applicable to their position while minimizing the roles played in the overall outcome of the game by their teammates.

A related point is even if an individual player had great stats but his team lost the game, it is highly likely that loss was due to some other of his teammates, and conversely if the stats suck but his team won anyway, he should not really be taking credit for the win.

I think it helps to actually watch the games to realize the truth of the foregoing.  Not saying you don't actually watch the games, but your post has me wondering.

I don't have a high level of care about the reputation tallies here, but I find it interesting that Jetrider gave me a negative rep for this post while at the same time not responding to it.  That of course says more about him than about the substance of this post.  I would have thought there is nothing controversial in what I said in the quote above.  What is there to argue about?  Yet Jetrider gave this post a negative rep. 

That is highly amusing.

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Hack may or may not mean anything this season or any. Watching this league long enough you grow to learn certain truths about teams looking for a QB. It's a BIG risk and really just a total crap shoot. There are VERY few that are certain successes.

With that said and Mac knowing that, he is choosing to keep the roster well stocked with young prospects in an effort to HOPEFULLY land that one good guy that the franchise can bank on for the next 10 to 15 seasons. I must say, I like the approach. If you're not in position to draft the next Peyton Manning, I find Mac's approach to be the next best.

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