Have fans forgotten how FA works?

[Rangers9]

6 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah playing with Nelson, Kerley, Rookie TE Amaro, John Connor, and C Ivory as targets is a good supporting cast?  SMH if you think 2014 roster and coaching was good.

Yeah, and don't forget Decker. And Cumberland wasn't a bum, either when he was thrown to. And a good receiving running back in Powell. And there is no doubt that Amaro can be a good receiving tight end. Even on a 4-12 team with a Qb who didn't play well he led all rookie tight ends in receiving. The problem was more Geno than anybody.

[RutgersJetFan]

I actually HAD forgotten how free agency worked. Good call OP. Phew, that was a close one.

[varjet]

Fitz the Harvard Economics Major would argue that this is not an efficient market.  Unfortunately for the Jets, because the Eagles and Texans paid substantial amounts for QBs who did not play/as well as Fitz did in 2015, Fitz thinks he should be paid like them.

Unfortunately for Fitz and the Jets, at this point(1) Fitz plays for what the Jets are offering, which sounds like just north of Chase Daniels money (but more than what Hoyer got to be a backup in Chicago), (2) someone desperate because of injury, etc. comes in and pays Fitz more than what the Jets are offering, and in that case Fitz has to take it and move on or (3) Fitz sits out. 

I think the Jets are approaching this the right way for the long-term, and hopefully Woody does not fold.  I think it is a 50/50 chance that Woody folds, and that is what Fitz is betting $millions on.

[Lupz27]

4 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah, and don't forget Decker. And Cumberland wasn't a bum, either when he was thrown to. And a good receiving running back in Powell. And there is no doubt that Amaro can be a good receiving tight end. Even on a 4-12 team with a Qb who didn't play well he led all rookie tight ends in receiving. The problem was more Geno than anybody.

Decker played 4 games total healthy.  Cumberland was so good lol, Powell is a decent RB on 3rd down, so good the Jets got a better version of him in Forte, don't know why they signed both, Powell only useful when Forte is injured , or needs a blow.

[Rangers9]

11 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Decker played 4 games total healthy.  Cumberland was so good lol, Powell is a decent RB on 3rd down, so good the Jets got a better version of him in Forte, don't know why they signed both, Powell only useful when Forte is injured , or needs a blow.

You're talking about good players like they are bums. I'm happy Mac re-signed Powell who at times last year was our best running back. I think with 2 good receiving running backs and a Qb who was efficient in the short passing game it's a great dimension and a strategy that can regularly move the chains and keep our defense off the field. And Kerley was underused all of last year and had been a contributor in our offense. The only real addition in terms of playmakers in 2015 was Marshall. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Mainejet said:

What's even less rational is to look at two HORRIBLE years and a totally disgusting instance of selfishness and then conclude...... "That's the guy to lead this team." OVER the guy coming off career numbers.

Or worse to expect a rookie QB, coming from a spread offense to play in the NFL without weapons or experience to not struggle big time.  To be so blind to how the game is played that you think this is all he'll ever be and can't improve if given time and weapons.

You know, when he played almost as shltty as the rookie Fitz and others played at the same point in setvicein service

[nyjets782]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

There is no evidence that there were zero offers. Obviously most NFL teams this season have their starters and Fitz is ours. So the market has dried up for starting Qbs. He could sign a backup deal too if he thinks the Jets are low balling him. Maybe he'd rather be a highly paid backup than a lowly paid starter. Also he got underpaid in 2015. He was signed as a backup and ended up being the starter. How's about some compensation for that one. Put yourself in the same position even though it's millions of bucks. Does the manager of a Burger King want french fry maker money and he has to run the place. Or does he expect manager money.

Sweet Jumping Jehossafats!  Where to even begin on this one?  You keep peddling this idea that it's possible that there are offers out there for Fitz to be some other team's starter.  The reason we know this isn't true is because he would have taken said offer to the Jets to get them to raise theirs.  This NEVER happened.  You know it and everyone else knows it.

Are you serious that he would sign with a team for LESS money to be their BACKUP?  And this is a Harvard graduate!!

Compensation for the fact that he outplayed his contract?  Any good GM will tell you that you don't pay a guy for what he did last year.  He is not entitled to a credit because he outplayed his last deal. 

The bottom line is what Fitz "expects" is meaningless.  He can sign the deal on the table and start or he can sign elsewhere for less money and hold a clip board.

[nyjets782]

31 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah, and don't forget Decker. And Cumberland wasn't a bum, either when he was thrown to. And a good receiving running back in Powell. And there is no doubt that Amaro can be a good receiving tight end. Even on a 4-12 team with a Qb who didn't play well he led all rookie tight ends in receiving. The problem was more Geno than anybody.

Are you seriously talking up Amaro and Cumberland as better than average weapons for a QB?  If you combined the performance of them both, they would be in the bottom 10 for tight ends. 

[Snell41]

paying Osweiler and Bradford 16 + is what's stupid.  Low end starter money is around 10 mil per top end is around 20mil . what's killing Fitz right now is his age and the sh*tty teams he's played for in the past. Teams simply do not want to pay Fitz starter money hoping he will fit into their system at age 33 that's dumb and that's why he's getting no offers. Teams looking to pay in the 7-10 range know its a waste of time because that's the range the Jets are currently in and its obvious Fitz will stay with the Jets if we match.  

Teams still make an offer. You think guys in DEN said boy we'd really like Fitz at 7m a year, but nah let's not bother he loves the Jets. That's garbage, every team puts out an offer if they want the player. No one wants Fitz as a starter. He is not worth starter money.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

2 minutes ago, Larz said:

We have no idea what's going on. 

Let's not pretend we do

It's pretty simple at this point. We're the market for him and he's the market for us. I think the way the team is looking at it is that we're taking a step back this year and the marginal value of the win or two less we'd lose if we retained Fitzpatrick isn't going to make or break the season and you don't pay a guy his age to not matter until next year. The flip side to this is that you can't ever afford to be so bad at quarterback that it tanks the whole program and that's basically what we're staring in the face. The likelihood of somebody with the numbers Geno put up in his first two seasons becoming an average starter is very low. Same for one with Hackenberg's projection. The fact that anybody is even talking about Petty tells you what you need to know about the other two. Most likely outcome of not signing Fitzpatrick is probably the plane crashing into the mountain. We still haven't recovered from giving Sanchez the extension and we still won't have when the new problem becomes getting out from under whatever the ridiculous overreaction to the disaster we're about to see turns out to be. Fitzpatrick is betting that Maccagnan will have an easier time keeping his job in the face of the cap hit if he signs than of the dominoes that start falling if he doesn't. It's a good bet. We'll see how it goes.

[detectivekimble]

56 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Geno had weapons. He had Ivory. Amaro. A good O-line. I don't agree that it was a disastrous roster. 

[ylekram]

yea, I can agree with most of this. but those 2 games might mean the difference between a playoff spot or no playoff spot. I am not sold on the brutal schedule people speak of. mathematically speaking, the odds of the schedule being as hard as predicted right now are very low. too many variables. I think geno can and will play better if he is named the starter this year, than he has in previous years. how much better is the question. can he be as good as fitz was last year? possibly, but my gut and my brain tell me the odds are long. if mac doesn't sign fitz and geno goes on to have a good year, mac looks like a genius. if geno fails, well, you already know. fitz is not a long term solution, but he is a very good insurance policy. in the long run, a short term deal for 7m-10m a year doesn't mean squat. all this doesnt matter anyway, because its all but written in stone that fitz will sign a deal that the jets are comfortable with

[Warfish]

4 hours ago, Snell41 said:

What some of you guys are advocating is to pay millions more than the market value of the player. Deals like that are what kill franchises and make them look like the senile Al Davis Raider days.

No one assigns us extra wins for not using up every penny of our available Cap Space.

I advocate a reasonable compromise deal, higher than the 3-5 mil many at JN seem to want, lower then the 16 mil Fitz reportedly wants.  Plenty of room in there.

And while I generally agree, bad contracts kill teams, a team without a QB is a dead team anyway.  

Macc appears to be playing this right, not caving, willing to sacrifice, er, "see what we have in Geno", for the short term/2015.

The future is named either Petty or Hack.

[slats]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

paying Osweiler and Bradford 16 + is what's stupid.  Low end starter money is around 10 mil per top end is around 20mil . what's killing Fitz right now is his age and the sh*tty teams he's played for in the past. Teams simply do not want to pay Fitz starter money hoping he will fit into their system at age 33 that's dumb and that's why he's getting no offers. Teams looking to pay in the 7-10 range know its a waste of time because that's the range the Jets are currently in and its obvious Fitz will stay with the Jets if we match.  

You don't think Fitz would've accepted an offer in that range from the Super Bowl Champs? 

[Lupz27]

52 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

You're talking about good players like they are bums. I'm happy Mac re-signed Powell who at times last year was our best running back. I think with 2 good receiving running backs and a Qb who was efficient in the short passing game it's a great dimension and a strategy that can regularly move the chains and keep our defense off the field. And Kerley was underused all of last year and had been a contributor in our offense. The only real addition in terms of playmakers in 2015 was Marshall. 

See your still living in the 1980's version of the NFL, short passing, moving the chains, keeping the D off the field.  Peyton Manning once had the ball for 16 total minutes of a 60 minute game, yet still won the game while putting up 30+ points.  You need to make BIG plays to win consistently in this league, the Fitz dink, and dunk sh*t doesn't win anything, but a couple games VS bad teams, the Jets had a schedule with 10+ bad teams on it last season.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

12 minutes ago, slats said:

You don't think Fitz would've accepted an offer in that range from the Super Bowl Champs? 

I have an easier time believing that Fitzpatrick would turn down 7 from Denver than that the team paying Mark Sanchez 4.5 to rip farts into a chair reserved for Paxton Lynch wouldn't have offered it to him.

[Rangers9]

9 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

See your still living in the 1980's version of the NFL, short passing, moving the chains, keeping the D off the field.  Peyton Manning once had the ball for 16 total minutes of a 60 minute game, yet still won the game while putting up 30+ points.  You need to make BIG plays to win consistently in this league, the Fitz dink, and dunk sh*t doesn't win anything, but a couple games VS bad teams, the Jets had a schedule with 10+ bad teams on it last season.

Look the Jets were very successful going medium to at times longer plays to Marshall and Decker, it wasn't all short plays. And hopefully a guy we drafted as a long pass specialist Devin Smith will be a factor, too. He didn't have a good rookie year but the coaching staff was high on him. I don't think that Fitz is a noodle arm and neither do Decker and Marshall. But using our running backs regularly in the passing game should be major this season. I think on average long passing plays on a percentage basis are not as effective as the short and medium game. With an occasional bomb to keep the defense honest. 

[LIJetsFan]

3 hours ago, ylekram said:

whats nuts is your statement. the poll clearly says $8m+, which is what the jets have "reportedly" offered fitz. the op threw in $10M+ for ha-has

lol, ok so somewhere between 8+ and 10+.  I stand corrected.  8+ single year ain't happening.  10+ multiyear is nuts.   

"Fitz @8mil+ (most likely 10mil+ and multiple years)"

[Lupz27]

19 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Look the Jets were very successful going medium to at times longer plays to Marshall and Decker, it wasn't all short plays. And hopefully a guy we drafted as a long pass specialist Devin Smith will be a factor, too. He didn't have a good rookie year but the coaching staff was high on him. I don't think that Fitz is a noodle arm and neither do Decker and Marshall. But using our running backs regularly in the passing game should be major this season. I think on average long passing plays on a percentage basis are not as effective as the short and medium game. With an occasional bomb to keep the defense honest. 

Your really just grasping at straws man, D Smith was no good because Fitz couldn't throw the ball long enough to reach him.  Fits was also one of the worst QB'S in the league at passes attempted that traveled 20 yards or more in the air, and probably would have been worse if it wasn't for Marshall, and Decker he probably would have been 0%.

[jamesr]

4 hours ago, Snell41 said:

When a player you're interested his the free agent market his agents work to get him the best deal possible. The market bears his value based on the offers received from teams. If a GM really wants the player, he pays a little more than other teams offer in simple terms. That's Free Agency in a nutshell.

Having said that, Ryan Fitzpatrick has been on the market selling his services as a starter for months now. He has received zero offers. The market has spoken. He has greatly overstated his value. Now mind you if he fielded offers as a backup I'm sure he'd get plenty of offers. So that's your market value for the player. We should not be offering him anything more than a higher end backup QB value in the 4-5m range, and because we can imply he would likely be the starter for us, add in incentive clauses that he can earn if he is the starter.

How the hell people are talking about giving the guy 10m a year or more for multiple years is mind numbingly stupid. Have you all lost your minds? The guaranteed money nothing to do with how he played last year, nor how you think he may play (that's what incentives are for), it is market value. Fitz's only leverage is retirement, and frankly if that's where his head is at then by all means go ahead.

What some of you guys are advocating is to pay millions more than the market value of the player. Deals like that are what kill franchises and make them look like the senile Al Davis Raider days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's another market factor to bear in mind here - the above only talks of demand. The market may have spoken on that front, but to a degree the market has also spoken on supply. If there were a supply of suitable alternatives, we'd have already signed one. There isn't, and we haven't.

This is where I think Fitz & co are operating from - they see the Jets as not having any other viable options, and eventually they'll have to improve their offer.

Whereas the Jets are operating in the same vein - they see Fitz as not having any other viable options, and eventually he'll have to lower his demands.

Now we're into the stage of "who blinks first". Both sides are clearly still interested or the topic would have been put to be long ago. So we now need to look at what deadlines are going to force either side's hand. OTAs, TC, pre-season ... who knows. But deadlines always come along, and tend to be the spur that is needed to re-open serious negotiations.

[jamesr]

7 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Your really just grasping at straws man, D Smith was no good because Fitz couldn't throw the ball long enough to reach him.  Fits was also one of the worst QB'S in the league at passes attempted that traveled 20 yards or more in the air, and probably would have been worse if it wasn't for Marshall, and Decker he probably would have been 0%.

I've not found any completion % stats for 20+ yd attempts, but he did rank 9th (tied) in completions over 20 yards. (Of course, how far the ball went and how much was YAC isn't included in those numbers).

[Lupz27]

12 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I've not found any completion % stats for 20+ yd attempts, but he did rank 9th (tied) in completions over 20 yards. (Of course, how far the ball went and how much was YAC isn't included in those numbers).

@VillainTheFoe can you educate this man.

[Villain The Foe]

5 hours ago, Snell41 said:

When a player you're interested his the free agent market his agents work to get him the best deal possible. The market bears his value based on the offers received from teams. If a GM really wants the player, he pays a little more than other teams offer in simple terms. That's Free Agency in a nutshell.

Having said that, Ryan Fitzpatrick has been on the market selling his services as a starter for months now. He has received zero offers. The market has spoken. He has greatly overstated his value. Now mind you if he fielded offers as a backup I'm sure he'd get plenty of offers. So that's your market value for the player. We should not be offering him anything more than a higher end backup QB value in the 4-5m range, and because we can imply he would likely be the starter for us, add in incentive clauses that he can earn if he is the starter.

How the hell people are talking about giving the guy 10m a year or more for multiple years is mind numbingly stupid. Have you all lost your minds? The guaranteed money nothing to do with how he played last year, nor how you think he may play (that's what incentives are for), it is market value. Fitz's only leverage is retirement, and frankly if that's where his head is at then by all means go ahead.

What some of you guys are advocating is to pay millions more than the market value of the player. Deals like that are what kill franchises and make them look like the senile Al Davis Raider days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@BowlesMovement This is obviously about people like you here. You probably have foot mouth disease at this point. lol. 

[Lupz27]

13 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I've not found any completion % stats for 20+ yd attempts, but he did rank 9th (tied) in completions over 20 yards. (Of course, how far the ball went and how much was YAC isn't included in those numbers).

@villainthefoe can you educate this man.

 

14 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I've not found any completion % stats for 20+ yd attempts, but he did rank 9th (tied) in completions over 20 yards. (Of course, how far the ball went and how much was YAC isn't included in those numbers).

 

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

@BowlesMovement This is obviously about people like you here. You probably have foot mouth disease at this point. lol. 

Educate this man please.

[ylekram]

24 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

lol, ok so somewhere between 8+ and 10+.  I stand corrected.  8+ single year ain't happening.  10+ multiyear is nuts.   

"Fitz @8mil+ (most likely 10mil+ and multiple years)"

8m per year for multiple years don't matter. the guaranteed money does. 4 year, $32m contract, with 8m guaranteed is basically a 1 year contract.

[NYs Stepchild]

4 hours ago, Mainejet said:

Really? I did not know that. And yes that is nuts. But like I said, I still think today should be Fitz deadline to sign. OTA's start to morrow and it's important to have your starting QB around for those things. I would give Fitz an ultimatum if I were Mac.

A lot of the moves we need to make to clear up cap space can't be made until after June 1st

[Rangers9]

26 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Your really just grasping at straws man, D Smith was no good because Fitz couldn't throw the ball long enough to reach him.  Fits was also one of the worst QB'S in the league at passes attempted that traveled 20 yards or more in the air, and probably would have been worse if it wasn't for Marshall, and Decker he probably would have been 0%.

Devin Smith was no good because he wasn't getting open and his route running was bad. And Marshall and Decker both had big years and loved the guy. They worked well together. I guess what they say means nothing. But I'll take their word for it over ours. 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Devin Smith was no good because he wasn't getting open and his route running was bad. And Marshall and Decker both had big years and loved the guy. They worked well together. I guess what they say means nothing. But I'll take their word for it over ours. 

Smith got open quite often in his limited time.  Fitz struggled to adjust to his speed.  His strength is not downfield passing.  

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Devin Smith was no good because he wasn't getting open and his route running was bad. And Marshall and Decker both had big years and loved the guy. They worked well together. I guess what they say means nothing. But I'll take their word for it over ours. 

See you want to believe Fitz can take the Jets to the promised land, and once you want to believe something you stop thinking, that's what's going on with all the Fitz lovers who want to pay him 10 mill to be the QB.  It's common human thinking.

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

Teams still make an offer. You think guys in DEN said boy we'd really like Fitz at 7m a year, but nah let's not bother he loves the Jets. That's garbage, every team puts out an offer if they want the player. No one wants Fitz as a starter. He is not worth starter money.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes teams do make offers and teams get turned down as well. Do you think an agent makes every little inquiry public ?

[ylekram]

13 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Smith got open quite often in his limited time.  Fitz struggled to adjust to his speed.  His strength is not downfield passing.  

while the bolded might hold some truth, you first sentence does not. yes, smith got open a few times and fitz did miss him, but I wouldn't say quite often. more like occasionally.

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

See your still living in the 1980's version of the NFL, short passing, moving the chains, keeping the D off the field.  Peyton Manning once had the ball for 16 total minutes of a 60 minute game, yet still won the game while putting up 30+ points.  You need to make BIG plays to win consistently in this league, the Fitz dink, and dunk sh*t doesn't win anything, but a couple games VS bad teams, the Jets had a schedule with 10+ bad teams on it last season.

you do realize the best offense's of today are short passing offenses. Mannings Colts, Brady's Pats, Brees Saints  all variations of the Offense the Niners ran IN THE 80's when these high powered, high percentage passing offenses were created. And just so your aware Keeping the ball out of the elite QB's hands is still a very viable scenario in the NFL. Have a look at the teams who won the SB or played in the SB the last few years or do you only watch the Jets ? Seattle Denver NE all short passing ball control offense's most of which rely on defense and ball control.

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, ylekram said:

while the bolded might hold some truth, you first sentence does not. yes, smith got open a few times and fitz did miss him, but I wouldn't say quite often. more like occasionally.

more often than people realize.  

[nyjets782]

44 minutes ago, jamesr said:

There's another market factor to bear in mind here - the above only talks of demand. The market may have spoken on that front, but to a degree the market has also spoken on supply. If there were a supply of suitable alternatives, we'd have already signed one. There isn't, and we haven't.

This is where I think Fitz & co are operating from - they see the Jets as not having any other viable options, and eventually they'll have to improve their offer.

Whereas the Jets are operating in the same vein - they see Fitz as not having any other viable options, and eventually he'll have to lower his demands.

Now we're into the stage of "who blinks first". Both sides are clearly still interested or the topic would have been put to be long ago. So we now need to look at what deadlines are going to force either side's hand. OTAs, TC, pre-season ... who knows. But deadlines always come along, and tend to be the spur that is needed to re-open serious negotiations.

This is well said, but the Jets as an organization can move on and has 2 guys on the roster who they hope can take his place in a year or 2.  Fitz is 33 and this is clearly his last chance to start in the NFL.  The Jets can survive a 7-9 or 8-8 season next year.  Fitz will never get a chance to make this kind of money or enter the season as a starter in the NFL again.  The Jets do and always have held all the cards.

[ylekram]

Just now, nyjunc said:

more often than people realize.  

meh. I watched every game. I didn't see him open all that much. kid has a lot to learn about the receiver game