Kirwan on Fitz

[FidelioJet]

47 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

So you're assuming that Fitz's 20 plus yard receptions were because of runs after a catch. You watched the guy play and you think he's a rag arm. I watched him play and thought he could make the throws and isn't a rag arm. He's at least average in arm strength. My observation,. I guess both Decker and Marshall feel that way too. Do you think they want a noodle arm as their starting Qb. 

Fitz's arm is awful.  Likely the worst of any starting caliber QB in the league.  At least average would mean that at least 15 other starting QB's have a weaker arm than Fitzpatrick.

The reason his long balls are so inaccurate is because he has to put so much into them just to get them there in time that he gives up accuracy.  

You want to say he's a leader, you want to say he's a gamer...I'm fine - but his terrible arm is not in-question.

[Rangers9]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Fitz's arm is awful.  Likely the worst of any starting caliber QB in the league.  At least average would mean that at least 15 other starting QB's have a weaker arm than Fitzpatrick.

The reason his long balls are so inaccurate is because he has to put so much into them just to get them there in time that he gives up accuracy.  

You want to say he's a leader, you want to say he's a gamer...I'm fine - but his terrible arm is not in-question.

I didn't see that. Are there jugs gun measurements on that? 

[FidelioJet]

Just now, Rangers9 said:

I didn't see that. Are there jugs gun measurements on that? 

Fitz's weak arm is not even debatable .  Even Fitz's most ardent supporters will acknowledge that. 

[Rangers9]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Fitz's weak arm is not even debatable .  Even Fitz's most ardent supporters will acknowledge that. 

It's debatable. 

[JetsFanatic]

If arm strength were a determining factor in how good a QB is, than Browning Nagle would be in the HOF.

[FidelioJet]

9 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

If arm strength were a determining factor in how good a QB is, than Browning Nagle would be in the HOF.

Wait, so you're saying because a person sucked who happened to have a strong arm - means that a strong arm isn't required to be a successful NFL QB..

Is that what you're implying?

[PatsFanTX]

It's debatable. 

How is Fitz's arm strength even debatable?

There is no starting QB in the NFL that has a weaker arm than Fitz.

Hell, his deep throws had a longer hang time than Quigley's punts.

[sourceworx]

13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Wait, so you're saying because a person sucked who happened to have a strong arm - means that a strong arm isn't required to be a successful NFL QB..

Is that what you're implying?

A strong arm isn't required (but it helps). Several QBs with weaker arms played in, and even won Super Bowls. 

Off the top of my head:

- Bob Griese
- Jim McMahon
- Brad Johnson
- Drew Brees
- Frank Tarkenton
- Joe Montana

Peyton never had a great arm, either.

I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

[PatsFanTX]

A strong arm isn't required (but it helps). Several QBs with weaker arms played in, and even won Super Bowls. 

Off the top of my head:

- Bob Griese

- Jim McMahon

- Brad Johnson

- Drew Brees

- Frank Tarkenton

- Joe Montana

Peyton never had a great arm, either.

I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

Jim McMahon had a cannon for an arm.

[Savage69]

3 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

Jim McMahon had a cannon for a arm..

And for a brain also..

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

A strong arm isn't required (but it helps). Several QBs with weaker arms played in, and even won Super Bowls. 

Off the top of my head:

- Bob Griese
- Jim McMahon
- Brad Johnson
- Drew Brees
- Frank Tarkenton
- Joe Montana

Peyton never had a great arm, either.

I'm sure I'm missing a few more.

5 of the 6 you mentioned were from a different era of the NFL...and Drew Breese's arm is NFL caliber.   Peyton had a very strong arm when he was younger. 

even then - you mentioned 6 QB's over 40 years as examples of weak arms being successful.  Of course there are outliers.

But even if I take your premise as a reasonable one - Fitz is 33 and 11 years and no playoffs, Fitz clearly doesn't have the other pieces to overcome the weak arm..

[sourceworx]

3 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

Jim McMahon had a cannon for an arm.

You sure about that? I remember him being pretty average from a physical standpoint.

The guy really knew how to win, though.

[Rangers9]

There are no radar gun readings on Fitz. Since 2008 at the combine Ourlads has been taking readings. The players with the highest rankings haven't even either played or started in the NFL. I think Logan Thomas now on Miami was either 1st or 2nd. Everything else is subjective based on personal observation nothing scientific from what I saw online. Bleacher Report in 2012 did their own rankings and rated Fitz who was with the Bills then next to last but they also named Sanchez next worst to him and we all know that Mark has a strong arm. 

[j4jets]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

So you're assuming that Fitz's 20 plus yard receptions were because of runs after a catch. You watched the guy play and you think he's a rag arm. I watched him play and thought he could make the throws and isn't a rag arm. He's at least average in arm strength. My observation,. I guess both Decker and Marshall feel that way too. Do you think they want a noodle arm as their starting Qb. 

I think that's one point everyone agrees upon. Well, almost everyone, now that you disagreed on it. 

[Colgateman]

49 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

If arm strength were a determining factor in how good a QB is, than Browning Nagle would be in the HOF.

Well, usually good quarterbacks can throw the ball deep down the field, you know. 

[Savage69]

3 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

Jim McMahon had a cannon for an arm.

And a brain as well..

[AFJF]

13 hours ago, David Harris said:

The Market has spoken.

It has, but we don't know what it said.  Would love to know what the Broncos were willing to offer when they contacted Fitz earlier in FA.  As Kirwan said, they may have offered 8 or 9 million with Fitz asking for more.

[PatsFanTX]

You sure about that? I remember him being pretty average from a physical standpoint.

The guy really knew how to win, though.

Yep, he threw the deep out with the best of them.

[AFJF]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Fitz's weak arm is not even debatable .  Even Fitz's most ardent supporters will acknowledge that. 

His arm is pretty weak by NFL standards, so it's a good thing arm strength isn't the only trait that matters. 

That being said, it's a big reason I'm hoping he loses the job to one of the kids at some point.  

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

So you're assuming that Fitz's 20 plus yard receptions were because of runs after a catch. You watched the guy play and you think he's a rag arm. I watched him play and thought he could make the throws and isn't a rag arm. He's at least average in arm strength. My observation,. I guess both Decker and Marshall feel that way too. Do you think they want a noodle arm as their starting Qb. 

Assuming? I didnt assume anything. I only let you know that there's a difference based on what you, yourself said. Lets go back. 

3 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

So if Fitz was 9th in the NFL in 20 plus yards receptions why is being labeled a rag arm. I don't want to get into a battle of stats. I'm sure the haters can find one to top that. 

So, the underlined part is the statement (stat)

The bigger font size is the question (rag arm)

The bolded is your assumption (sarcastic response)

 

Now, to show you what im talking about, here's Fitzpatrick Stats. 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick

You'll notice that Fitz longest pass of the season was a very respectable 69 yards. 

However, this is that play. 

The referee's left foot represents the LOS which is the 31 yard line.  Brandon Marshall caught the ball at the 36 yard line which means that flight of the ball went 5 yards. Brandon Marshall accumulated 64 yards after the catch for a TD. 

 

This play is added to his stats for 20 yard or more plays....and based on the type of statistic, rightfully so. No one's hating on that...its the truth.

 Here's the problem. Using this stat to then put into question the possible illegitimate notion of him having a rag arm while pointing to stats that take plays like this into account doesn't properly evaluate his arm talent. Because I understand the difference I responded. Furthermore, stats themselves truly dont tell the story. Here's another example. 

This 35 yard TD is clearly under-thrown and inaccurate. Unfortunately I couldnt find a "behind the QB" Gif of this throw so you can see with your own eyes how far off that pass really was but more importantly how much of an absolute BEAST Brandon Marshall is. 

 

Another example. 

I couldnt find a Gif showing Fitz, but there are vids out there. The pass was totally underthrown yet had only 16 yards of actual ball flight. Not only was it absolutely impressive that Marshall was able to get under the defender and make an absolute insane shoe-string catch, but then he proceeds to dominate two defenders and gets 19 extra yards after the catch (YAC) for the TD. 

 

As a sidenote, David Nelson, Ryan Spadola, Clyde Gates and the rest of them couldnt do THIS^^^^^^^. You only make throws like this when you have a bonafide #1 WR that can convert bad throws into touchdowns. 

You dont need stats to determine if Fitz has a not-so-impressive arm. He's not Chad Pennington with it. But a huge reason for Fitz being 9th in the league is because of absolute ridiculous catches such as the one's above. Now, Fitz isnt inaccurate all the time. Here's one from the Cowboys game. Fitz threw an absolute DIME on this play. (Credit when credit is due....no hate)

 

The problem is consistency. Because in the same game this happened. 

The pass is totally behind Enunwa. He had to stop stride on his route and make an acrobatic catch, which mind you if the underneath defender was there a half second earlier that would have been either a batted ball or possibly an INT, not because it was a bad decision, but it was horrible ball placement. 

 

But like I said, I wasnt assuming, that was you. I was just letting you know that 9th in the NFL doesnt mean anything when trying to judge or evaluate his arm talent. Watching the games will show you. 

[Rangers9]

30 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Assuming? I didnt assume anything. I only let you know that there's a difference based on what you, yourself said. Lets go back. 

So, the underlined part is the statement (stat)

The bigger font size is the question (rag arm)

The bolded is your assumption (sarcastic response)

 

Now, to show you what im talking about, here's Fitzpatrick Stats. 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8664/ryan-fitzpatrick

You'll notice that Fitz longest pass of the season was a very respectable 69 yards. 

However, this is that play. 

The referee's left foot represents the LOS which is the 31 yard line.  Brandon Marshall caught the ball at the 36 yard line which means that flight of the ball went 5 yards. Brandon Marshall accumulated 64 yards after the catch for a TD. 

 

This play is added to his stats for 20 yard or more plays....and based on the type of statistic, rightfully so. No one's hating on that...its the truth.

 Here's the problem. Using this stat to then put into question the possible illegitimate notion of him having a rag arm while pointing to stats that take plays like this into account doesn't properly evaluate his arm talent. Because I understand the difference I responded. Furthermore, stats themselves truly dont tell the story. Here's another example. 

This 35 yard TD is clearly under-thrown and inaccurate. Unfortunately I couldnt find a "behind the QB" Gif of this throw so you can see with your own eyes how far off that pass really was but more importantly how much of an absolute BEAST Brandon Marshall is. 

 

Another example. 

I couldnt find a Gif showing Fitz, but there are vids out there. The pass was totally underthrown yet had only 16 yards of actual ball flight. Not only was it absolutely impressive that Marshall was able to get under the defender and make an absolute insane shoe-string catch, but then he proceeds to dominate two defenders and gets 19 extra yards after the catch (YAC) for the TD. 

 

As a sidenote, David Nelson, Ryan Spadola, Clyde Gates and the rest of them couldnt do THIS^^^^^^^. You only make throws like this when you have a bonafide #1 WR that can convert bad throws into touchdowns. 

You dont need stats to determine if Fitz has a not-so-impressive arm. He's not Chad Pennington with it. But a huge reason for Fitz being 9th in the league is because of absolute ridiculous catches such as the one's above. Now, Fitz isnt inaccurate all the time. Here's one from the Cowboys game. Fitz threw an absolute DIME on this play. (Credit when credit is due....no hate)

 

The problem is consistency. Because in the same game this happened. 

The pass is totally behind Enunwa. He had to stop stride on his route and make an acrobatic catch, which mind you if the underneath defender was there a half second earlier that would have been either a batted ball or possibly an INT, not because it was a bad decision, but it was horrible ball placement. 

 

But like I said, I wasnt assuming, that was you. I was just letting you know that 9th in the NFL doesnt mean anything when trying to judge or evaluate his arm talent. Watching the games will show you. 

 On Enunwa what's wrong with that play? I'll show you 100 completions like that from Joe Montana. 

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

 On Enunwa what's wrong with that play? I'll show you 100 completions like that from Joe Montana. 

This is your response huh? 

 

lol. 

[Rangers9]

Just now, Villain The Foe said:

This is your response huh? 

 

lol. 

Your examples aren't good ones. The Marshall pass was ok, so he had to lower his hands to catch the ball. It was catchable. I see this all of the time with Qbs. There are no perfect plays. You expect your receivers to make good catches. The players will take those passes anytime. 

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

Your examples aren't good ones. The Marshall pass was ok, so he had to lower his hands to catch the ball. It was catchable. I see this all of the time with Qbs. There are no perfect plays. You expect your receivers to make good catches. The players will take those passes anytime. 

Cool. lol

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Your examples aren't good ones. The Marshall pass was ok, so he had to lower his hands to catch the ball. It was catchable. I see this all of the time with Qbs. There are no perfect plays. You expect your receivers to make good catches. The players will take those passes anytime. 

So when those receivers didnt make those catches in 2013/14, dont blame Geno Smith. 

[cant wait]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

Your examples aren't good ones. The Marshall pass was ok, so he had to lower his hands to catch the ball. It was catchable. I see this all of the time with Qbs. There are no perfect plays. You expect your receivers to make good catches. The players will take those passes anytime. 

Try looking again without the beard-colored glasses on 

[Rangers9]

Fitz has adequate arm strength to get the job done. He can make longer throws with some accuracy but he doesn't have a howitzer which does not translate to being a good Qb. If so Ryan Leaf is in the HOF. 

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Fitz has adequate arm strength to get the job done. He can make longer throws with some accuracy but he doesn't have a howitzer which does not translate to being a good Qb. If so Ryan Leaf is in the HOF. 

This is the nonsense from Fitz supporters. You guys talk about us "haters" yet with me I come with stats that I accumulate on my own. Gif's I make on my own. 

I would go show you all of those wide-open overthrown passes to Chris Owusu and Devin Smith, but then you'll tell me something about Joe Montana. And you call us "haters"???

 

lol. 

[Rangers9]

14 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

This is the nonsense from Fitz supporters. You guys talk about us "haters" yet with me I come with stats that I accumulate on my own. Gif's I make on my own. 

I would go show you all of those wide-open overthrown passes to Chris Owusu and Devin Smith, but then you'll tell me something about Joe Montana. And you call us "haters"???

 

lol. 

Look you can cherry pick all of the negative plays you want to. But at least show overthrows or worse. You're showing catch able balls. And if your receiver bails you out what's so bad about that it's their job. It kept Jerry Rice employed for many years.

[JetsFanatic]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Wait, so you're saying because a person sucked who happened to have a strong arm - means that a strong arm isn't required to be a successful NFL QB..

Is that what you're implying?

A strong arm is not required to be a successful QB. 

[JetsFanatic]

1 hour ago, Savage69 said:

And for a brain also..

Thanks, I needed a laugh today!

[Villain The Foe]

7 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Look you can cherry pick all of the negative plays you want to. But at least show overthrows or worse. You're showing catch able balls. And if your receiver bails you out what's so bad about that it's their job. It kept Jerry Rice employed for many years.

So  you're admitting that they were bad plays? 

 

lol. 

[ljr]

5 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Actually she'd be a hermaphrodite, which in that case she'd/he'd be both your aunt and your uncle. 

Ah-ha!

Finally found where your expertise is !

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, ljr said:

Ah-ha!

Finally found where your expertise is !

Hey now, thats not MY aunt! 

[cant wait]

11 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

A strong arm is not required to be a successful QB. 

No but weak armed QB's are limited because they cant make all the throws, therefore it's essential to make up for it with great accuracy and decision making. My main beef with fitz is that he's a one-read QB, thus making an already limited player even more so. He does have surprising field vision and even some short area quickness as a runner, but he's also reckless in that aspect of his game as well and it makes him an injury risk. And let's be honest he's not built to be a running QB, and even more likely to decline in his age 34 season.