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Ten years on the Packers' season-ticket waiting list ... 60,000 spots to go - Argument for the PSLs


Gas2No99

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Ten years on the Packers' season-ticket waiting list ... 60,000 spots to go

Darren RovellESPN Senior Writer

On Sept. 9, 2006, when I stopped by Lambeau Field to do a story on the Green Bay Packers, I decided to take some time and formally put my name on the famous waiting list that was started some time shortly after the team first sold out in 1960.

I was told from the beginning that, in all honesty, I would not be able to get tickets in my lifetime, but at least I could observe the movement of the list over time.

There were 73,256 people ahead of me on the list that day, and each of them could claim four tickets when they reached the top.

It was a long way to go.

With the Packers as good as they are, and their consistent goal to stay in the league average in ticket prices, people weren't releasing their tickets any time soon.

If a season-ticket holder died, the tickets could be willed to their family. If there was a divorce, the Packers honor the divorce settlement.

Over the next six years, my wait dropped by about 1,000 spots a year. By 2011, I was at 68,467. The next year, 67,433. Then came 2013, when the Packers expanded Lambeau for the first time in a decade, and thousands of names came off in one fell swoop.

In the past four years alone, everyone who got on the list in the 1970s and 1980s came off the list. Fan No. 1 on the list, who was offered tickets for this upcoming season, signed up in 1990.

The wait, which had grown to more than 30 years, was down to 26 years.

So if I'm 37 now, doesn't the math suggest that at 63, I will get my tickets?

Not exactly.

Lambeau isn't expanding these days. The Packers' new way of generating revenue is buying land around the stadium and building a mini Packers city called Titletown. So there's no plan to bump me down another 5,000 spots any time soon.

Then there's this more important fact: A disproportionate amount of people signed up in 1996, the season the Packers went on to beat the New England Patriots in Super Bowl XXXI.

It means that, assuming no more massive expansions, there are literally hundreds of years of tickets tied up in people that signed up during that year.

On Wednesday, I walked into the Packers' ticket office to get my up-to-date number.

It's now 60,766.

I had moved 12,491 spots up the list in nearly a decade. Mark Wagner, who has managed the office since 1977, confirmed again that I have no shot of getting tickets without cryogenic help.

But I did find some solace: There are more people now behind me (more than 65,000) than are ahead of me.

 

This has been a posting for those of us with Season Tickets THANKS to PSLs, we NO LONGER have to suffer like Green Bay STH hopefuls. 

 

 

Keep aiming high and striving for that star . . . . . . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and you JUST may get it :D

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That's the point of this article and its relevance to the NY Jets.

If it weren't for PSLs, the Jets would still have an egregiously long waiting list and RIDICULOUSLY high 2nd hand Ticket prices due to the limit of supply and ticket hoarding by the Descendants & Brokers. You ever try buying tix to a GB game in Packer Country?

PSLs actually revealed what the market price is for attending a game and that it's rather reasonable as most tix at MetLife can be had for around $100 or less. For those who CHOSE and COULD AFFORD a PSL, the cost of that initial "investment" fee was to assure the tickets a fan wanted in the stadium.  

Like in everything in life, you have to pay for it if you want it. Fans who choose not to attend live games have no reason to complain as watching on TV is just as informative as it is LIVE, but probably not as much fun. 

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2 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Packers season ticket holders are the owners oft the team, so that whole situation is different. 

The Feel-Good Scam Of Owning The Packers

 

For just the fifth time in their 92-year history, the publicly owned Green Bay Packers launched a stock offering this week, issuing at least 250,000 shares to anyone who wants to count themselves as an owner of an NFL team. It's an irresistible offer for a devoted fan, and within 11 minutes of stock going on sale, the Packers had sold $400,000 worth of shares. If the initial 250,000 shares sell out before March, the team is authorized to issue up to 880,000 shares. At $250 apiece (not including a $25 "handling fee"), the Packers could raise as much as $220 million—more than enough to pay for their planned $143 million renovation of Lambeau Field. Thirty-one other NFL owners are seething with jealousy. They wish they could get money from their fanbase so easily.

 

But what's in it for the new shareholders? Let's start with what you don't get.

• You don't get money. What the Packers are offering is Common Stock, which isn't stock as most people understand it. It can't go down, it can't go up, you can't sell it, and you can't cash in. On the front page of their Offering Document, the Packers make this distinction quite clear:

 

COMMON STOCK DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN INVESTMENT IN "STOCK" IN THE COMMON SENSE OF THE TERM. PURCHASERS SHOULD NOT PURCHASE COMMON STOCK WITH THE PURPOSE OF MAKING A PROFIT.

Even if the team should ever be sold, shareholders will not receive a slice of the purchasing price, or even get their initial investments back. Any profits from the sale of the team will go to the Packers' charitable foundation in Green Bay. (Until 1997, the beneficiary of a billion-plus dollar sale would have been the local American Legion post.)

• You don't get a real say in the team. While a share does confer voting rights, the Packers make very clear that you have almost zero say. Under the heading "Limited Influence," they do the math for you: because there will be at least five million outstanding shares, your vote might as well be worthless. And since no one is allowed to own more than 200 shares, you can't buy clout. Even if you could, most votes concern electing members of the 45-person Board of Directors, who in turn select a seven-person Executive Committee, which is the braintrust that makes the actual franchise decisions.

• You don't get to criticize the Packers, or other teams, or any NFL employee. Although the NFL's rules on ownership are drafted and aimed at the typical multimillionaire owner, they apply just as much to you, Betsy from Sheboygan. While the league isn't going to be monitoring message boards for your negative comments, what about a national writer? Andy Hutchins of SBNation is a Green Bay fan, but his day job is writing about football, which necessarily means having to criticize NFL figures on occasion. He'd love to own a piece of the Packers, but by the letter of the law, that would be a conflict of interest. It's an ethical dilemma, and one he's not sure he's willing to take on.

Now that the negative stuff is out of the way, here's what you do get for your $250. You get a certificate suitable for framing. You get an invite to the annual shareholders meeting. You get "the opportunity to purchase exclusive shareholder merchandise."

Congratulations! You just joined a team fan club! (For what it's worth, the Ravens' kids club costs an order of magnitude less, and you get pizza coupons.)

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11 hours ago, no psls said:

There is NO justification for PSLs . They are legalized extortion .

There are people in Green Bay making a small fortune by selling their grandfather's tickets for ridiculous money.  Used to be that way for a large portion of Jets fans sitting in the best seats in the house.

Legalized extortion?  Think again.  PSL's are a legalized enema.  Rid the fanbase of the squatters, allowed true fans to finally get seats.  They aren't for everyone.  Not everyone can afford them.  At their most affordable they cost $7 per game.  Some people can't afford a #1 at McDonald's.  Those people usually keep their mouths shut and focus on more important things than how others spend their lunch money.

SAR I

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11 hours ago, Gas2No99 said:

That's the point of this article and its relevance to the NY Jets.

If it weren't for PSLs, the Jets would still have an egregiously long waiting list and RIDICULOUSLY high 2nd hand Ticket prices due to the limit of supply and ticket hoarding by the Descendants & Brokers. You ever try buying tix to a GB game in Packer Country?

PSLs actually revealed what the market price is for attending a game and that it's rather reasonable as most tix at MetLife can be had for around $100 or less. For those who CHOSE and COULD AFFORD a PSL, the cost of that initial "investment" fee was to assure the tickets a fan wanted in the stadium.  

Like in everything in life, you have to pay for it if you want it. Fans who choose not to attend live games have no reason to complain as watching on TV is just as informative as it is LIVE, but probably not as much fun. 

Perfectly stated, Gas.

Not only did PSL's give the fanbase a long-overdue enema, flush out all the bad eggs, and welcome in loyal waitlisters, but also allowed for the legalization of ticket resale by said PSL owners. 

When one compares life at Giants Stadium to life at MetLife Stadium, you see a complete metamorphosis, so much better than it used to be.  And finally the cheapskates are the ones frozen out, scrounging for tickets online or in the parking lots, no more free ride by selling half of grandpa's seats for 2x face value and attending the rest of the games for free, no more scalpers taking those seats and marking them up another 2x.

PSL's have a really bad stigma and are easy radio talk show fodder.  The reality is that when used properly by the proper fanbase, it's like Lincoln freeing the slaves, it's revolutionary.

SAR I

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11 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

I remember being on the waiting list for the Jets they used to mail you the postcard updating your number i remember being around 15,000 before got my tickets. 

There isn't a waiting list here anymore........

What the 8 years of MetLife Stadium has taught us is that the waitlist was very important as it was the pool of fans who were among the first to pony up for PSL's.  Back in 2008 when people in forums were screaming "Ha!  The Jets went through the waitlist and still have a ton of PSL's left!  The PSL's aren't working!  We were right!" what they instead should have been saying is "Oh my God, I never realized just how many carpetbaggers and profiteers there actually were in the Stadium."

The embarrassment wasn't that there weren't enough PSL buyers.  The embarrassment was how many people were pretending to be Jets fans and were instead fleecing the fans.  Ticket brokers, corporations, scalpers, I don't blame them for leaving when the free ride ended.  Hey, they're running a business.  But I hold responsible the actual Jets fans who were born under a lucky star and wound up in grandpa's seats and once the Jets stopped paying them to attend games they just bolted and called the PSL process "legalized extortion".  Enjoy purgatory.  It's what the waitlist felt like in 1988, 1989, 1990, I was on that thing for 15 years while others occupied the seats I should have had and sold them for huge profits to people like me who were locked out.  I'll start feeling bad for those people who "lost" their comfy seats on the 40 in Giants Stadium in, say, 2025.  Yeah, that sounds about right.

SAR I

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5 hours ago, SAR I said:

There are people in Green Bay making a small fortune by selling their grandfather's tickets for ridiculous money.  Used to be that way for a large portion of Jets fans sitting in the best seats in the house.

Legalized extortion?  Think again.  PSL's are a legalized enema.  Rid the fanbase of the squatters, allowed true fans to finally get seats.  They aren't for everyone.  Not everyone can afford them.  At their most affordable they cost $7 per game.  Some people can't afford a #1 at McDonald's.  Those people usually keep their mouths shut and focus on more important things than how others spend their lunch money.

SAR I

"True Fans" as it relates to money goes both ways.  Not all people that can afford PSLs are "True Fans".  And there are a lot of people that cannot afford PSLs that are "True Fans".

Like you, I have some financial "skin in the game" with all my teams; Jets, Knicks, Devils, Mets.

But I don't measure people's fandom based on how much money they spend on their team(s).

I'm sure we both know a lot of less fortunate people who have all the Jet garb and all the Jet memorabilia and watch every Jet game on TV.

Doesn't make them any less "truer" a fan than you or me.

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1 hour ago, Flushing Roots said:

"True Fans" as it relates to money goes both ways.  Not all people that can afford PSLs are "True Fans".  And there are a lot of people that cannot afford PSLs that are "True Fans".

Like you, I have some financial "skin in the game" with all my teams; Jets, Knicks, Devils, Mets.

But I don't measure people's fandom based on how much money they spend on their team(s).

I'm sure we both know a lot of less fortunate people who have all the Jet garb and all the Jet memorabilia and watch every Jet game on TV.

Doesn't make them any less "truer" a fan than you or me.

When I use that term I am referring to loyalists who were aching on the waitlist for 15 years vs. non-fans who had grandpa's seats and were Cowboys fans. 

That said, there are degrees of true Jets fans and those who show up to games consistently as season ticket holders are more dedicated than those who don't, regardless of the cost. 

SAR I

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55 minutes ago, SAR I said:

When I use that term I am referring to loyalists who were aching on the waitlist for 15 years vs. non-fans who had grandpa's seats and were Cowboys fans. 

That said, there are degrees of true Jets fans and those who show up to games consistently as season ticket holders are more dedicated than those who don't, regardless of the cost. 

SAR I

While I have no problem with PSL'S, that last sentence I disagree.  I have bled green and white for 42 years now, and I'm only 47.  The only way I don't watch a game is if I literally cannot get it on television, or find a bar that will show it on NFL Network.  But given that I live 9 hours away, I am not spending half my income to attend games.  Calling fans more dedicated because they attend games sounds a lot like the privileged telling the minions they are less because they do not have more. 

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8 hours ago, SAR I said:

There are people in Green Bay making a small fortune by selling their grandfather's tickets for ridiculous money.  Used to be that way for a large portion of Jets fans sitting in the best seats in the house.

Legalized extortion?  Think again.  PSL's are a legalized enema.  Rid the fanbase of the squatters, allowed true fans to finally get seats.  They aren't for everyone.  Not everyone can afford them.  At their most affordable they cost $7 per game.  Some people can't afford a #1 at McDonald's.  Those people usually keep their mouths shut and focus on more important things than how others spend their lunch money.

SAR I

I wish McDonalds had PSLs.  Sick of those long drive through lines filled with the hungry masses.  Need a drive thru for PSL owners were they already know you want fries with that and just because you are ther no need to ask, " Do you want that super sized" ?They already know because my lanyard is hanging from the rear view mirror.  

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8 hours ago, SAR I said:

What the 8 years of MetLife Stadium has taught us is that the waitlist was very important as it was the pool of fans who were among the first to pony up for PSL's.  Back in 2008 when people in forums were screaming "Ha!  The Jets went through the waitlist and still have a ton of PSL's left!  The PSL's aren't working!  We were right!" what they instead should have been saying is "Oh my God, I never realized just how many carpetbaggers and profiteers there actually were in the Stadium."

The embarrassment wasn't that there weren't enough PSL buyers.  The embarrassment was how many people were pretending to be Jets fans and were instead fleecing the fans.  Ticket brokers, corporations, scalpers, I don't blame them for leaving when the free ride ended.  Hey, they're running a business.  But I hold responsible the actual Jets fans who were born under a lucky star and wound up in grandpa's seats and once the Jets stopped paying them to attend games they just bolted and called the PSL process "legalized extortion".  Enjoy purgatory.  It's what the waitlist felt like in 1988, 1989, 1990, I was on that thing for 15 years while others occupied the seats I should have had and sold them for huge profits to people like me who were locked out.  I'll start feeling bad for those people who "lost" their comfy seats on the 40 in Giants Stadium in, say, 2025.  Yeah, that sounds about right.

SAR I

Even though i was on the waiting list for 15 years I never had a problem getting tickets at a fair price even in those comfy seats on the 40 the same can be said for MetLife if you have the money and know the right people you can do the same thing.I finally got my season tickets after a very long wait and had an 18 year run with them and had some great times. Some decided to cough up the cash for Woody to bank and some didnt all personal preference. What was lost when the PSLs became the rule was years of tradition for families who started out at Shea and moved to Giants Stadium who stuck with the Jets in some miserable years I guess the payback was lets hit them with PSLs they deserve it for supporting this team who has won nothing in 47 years. 

Im happy for the new fans who bought into the PSLs its their turn to financially support the organization that I did financially for 18 years, the sad part is going on E-Bay or Craigslist and seeing PSLs for sale and no one buying them. 

Being a season ticket holder doesn't measure if you are a real fan of the team or not.

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9 hours ago, SAR I said:

There are people in Green Bay making a small fortune by selling their grandfather's tickets for ridiculous money.  Used to be that way for a large portion of Jets fans sitting in the best seats in the house.

Legalized extortion?  Think again.  PSL's are a legalized enema.  Rid the fanbase of the squatters, allowed true fans to finally get seats.  They aren't for everyone.  Not everyone can afford them.  At their most affordable they cost $7 per game.  Some people can't afford a #1 at McDonald's.  Those people usually keep their mouths shut and focus on more important things than how others spend their lunch money.

SAR I

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2 hours ago, SAR I said:

When I use that term I am referring to loyalists who were aching on the waitlist for 15 years vs. non-fans who had grandpa's seats and were Cowboys fans. 

The PSL system in no way changes this. Sure, some people lost their seats because they weren't willing to pay the PSL and that opened up seats for other people to buy. However, the PSL is transferable and nothing will stop your grandson from being the fan of another team and selling away tickets bought under your PSL short of the team building a new stadium and invalidating all the PSLs at MetLife. 

 

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psls have actually in my opinion made for a worse game day experience-before the psls ( I have several and all are better than our resident "rich guy")

in the old days the guy next to you was always the same-for years and years it was always the same faces, same families

now between the psls and the emergence of stub hub etc... fans often sell tickets to re coup some of the money they spent on psls/tickets

even our resident "rich guy" that does not even have coaches club seats admits he sells tickets

 

 

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13 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

While I have no problem with PSL'S, that last sentence I disagree.  I have bled green and white for 42 years now, and I'm only 47.  The only way I don't watch a game is if I literally cannot get it on television, or find a bar that will show it on NFL Network.  But given that I live 9 hours away, I am not spending half my income to attend games.  Calling fans more dedicated because they attend games sounds a lot like the privileged telling the minions they are less because they do not have more. 

I'm not talking about income.  I'm talking about the investment of time.

A season ticket holder leaves his house at 10AM and gets home at 6PM.  That's a whole day of driving, traffic, it's a terrific investment in time away from your family, it's a huge sacrifice. 

You cannot compare the dedication of someone spending time with his family who sits on the couch for 3 hours to someone who is spending 8 hours away from home.  Completely different degree of loyalty and dedication to the team.

SAR I

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16 hours ago, Flushing Roots said:

But I don't measure people's fandom based on how much money they spend on their team(s).

I'm sure we both know a lot of less fortunate people who have all the Jet garb and all the Jet memorabilia and watch every Jet game on TV.

Doesn't make them any less "truer" a fan than you or me.

It's not about money.  It's about time.

When I lived in New Hampshire as a season ticket holder and made it down for 6 games a year driving 10 hours round trip, spending a night in a hotel, all alone, away from my family, that's a huge sacrifice, that's a huge amount of fandom, that's major league dedication.  Someone sitting in his basement in a Jets jersey, not the same thing at all, can't compare.

SAR I

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3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

It's not about money.  It's about time.

When I lived in New Hampshire as a season ticket holder and made it down for 6 games a year driving 10 hours round trip, spending a night in a hotel, all alone, away from my family, that's a huge sacrifice, that's a huge amount of fandom, that's major league dedication.  Someone sitting in his basement in a Jets jersey, not the same thing at all, can't compare.

SAR I

Staying within the Civil War narrative; if Woody is Lincoln, I suppose the above makes you Rutherford B. Hayes.

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13 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

 What was lost when the PSLs became the rule was years of tradition for families who started out at Shea and moved to Giants Stadium who stuck with the Jets in some miserable years I guess the payback was lets hit them with PSLs they deserve it for supporting this team who has won nothing in 47 years.

Not the right way to look at it.

Those families you mention who had great seats on the 40 from 1977 to 2010 had the greatest bargain in New York sports history.  That's 33 years of ridiculously cheap prices, they could sell tickets to a great game for 5x face value. most times they could sell 4 games at 2x face value and attend the other 4 games for free, in better seasons they could sell 4 games at 4x face value and pay for the following years tickets while pocketing enough cash to fund a weekend in Atlantic City.

While that was going on, you had fans like me who couldn't get into the stadium at face value and got stuck on a list for 15+ years with the reward for that seats in the upper deck endzones two rows from the flags.

The minute you start to cry for the poor Shea fans do me a favor and think about the fans they blocked out time and time again, year after year, adding insult to injury by profiting on our backs.  Decades of free Jets games.  It's criminal.  Never heard WFAN talk about that, never saw Myers write an article about that.  Today, the tables are turned.  It's quite fair, actually.  Talk to me in another 20 years, then perhaps the old Shea fans can start to talk about inequality.

SAR I

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12 hours ago, rex-n-effect said:

The PSL system in no way changes this. Sure, some people lost their seats because they weren't willing to pay the PSL and that opened up seats for other people to buy. However, the PSL is transferable and nothing will stop your grandson from being the fan of another team and selling away tickets bought under your PSL short of the team building a new stadium and invalidating all the PSLs at MetLife. 

 

The PSL's are good for 30 years.  That means that if I have some grandchildren who are non-Jets fans and try to become profiteers they'll be flushed out by the next generation when their new stadium is built.  And anyone frozen out now has the option of buying an aftermarket PSL legally if they are impatient and want in right away.

The PSL process repeating once a generation ensures that 1) the fanbase isn't invaded by freeloaders and 2) new owners who buy the team get a guaranteed payday and an incentive to keep the team in New York and build a great facility.  PSL's work.

SAR I

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6 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Not the right way to look at it.

Those families you mention who had great seats on the 40 from 1977 to 2010 had the greatest bargain in New York sports history.  That's 33 years of ridiculously cheap prices, they could sell tickets to a great game for 5x face value. most times they could sell 4 games at 2x face value and attend the other 4 games for free, in better seasons they could sell 4 games at 4x face value and pay for the following years tickets while pocketing enough cash to fund a weekend in Atlantic City.

While that was going on, you had fans like me who couldn't get into the stadium at face value and got stuck on a list for 15+ years with the reward for that seats in the upper deck endzones two rows from the flags.

The minute you start to cry for the poor Shea fans do me a favor and think about the fans they blocked out time and time again, year after year, adding insult to injury by profiting on our backs.  Decades of free Jets games.  It's criminal.  Never heard WFAN talk about that, never saw Myers write an article about that.  Today, the tables are turned.  It's quite fair, actually.  Talk to me in another 20 years, then perhaps the old Shea fans can start to talk about inequality.

SAR I

WFAN and Gary Myers = The Richmond Enquirer.

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4 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Loyalty and dedication to a profitable enterprise with a mediocre product seems like kind of a sappy aspiration.

Sports fandom is completely illogical and emotional.  There is no smart business model for being a fan.  Most will burn thousands of dollars on tickets and memorabilia over the course of 30 years to wind up with 1 measly joyous season, if that.

It's not an aspiration; it's an obsession.  It's not for everyone.  Going to live games that are free on TV is a huge waste of time and effort, but the rewards are great when things work out.  Those Giants and Patriots games last season, epic fun no matter how much it cost me in money and time.  My son and I will remember those Sunday's for the rest of our lives.

SAR I

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12 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Totally. If there's one name that comes to mind for comparison when I think of Woody Johnson, it's Abraham Lincoln.

I'm not sure how long you had season tickets or when you started attending Jets games, but from 1986 to 2010 I couldn't get seats leagally in my own name, picking the exact location that I wanted at the price I wanted to pay.

So when Woody Johnson followed the lead of other NFL teams, instituted PSL's, and allowed me that option, yes, it was a tremendous freedom that I was prevented from enjoying for 25 years.  I went from a kid to an old man by the time I could get the exact tickets I wanted.  Practically a lifetime. 

SAR I

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11 hours ago, kmnj said:

psls have actually in my opinion made for a worse game day experience-before the psls ( I have several and all are better than our resident "rich guy")

in the old days the guy next to you was always the same-for years and years it was always the same faces, same families

now between the psls and the emergence of stub hub etc... fans often sell tickets to re coup some of the money they spent on psls/tickets

even our resident "rich guy" that does not even have coaches club seats admits he sells tickets

 

 

Nothing has changed between the old days and today except for the PSL owner holding the cards on resale vs. ticket brokers and non-Jets fans.

For 6 of the 8 home games per year, the fans in my section are completely consistent, we are friends.  For a couple of games a year where some of us can't go, yes, the seats change hands.  But they tend to go to young Jets fans at bargain-basement prices, so that's a good thing, that's a luxury I was not extended in 1982 when I first got my drivers license and wanted to go to games. 

There is no downside to PSL's.  You want to criticize Stubhub, that's a different argument, while it sometimes waters down the fans in the stadium it also allows us to attend road games for the Jets, Rangers, Knicks, and Yankees at low prices so that upside cancels any downside.  Stubhub let the cat out of the bag on the real value of a gameday ticket, it's pro-fan, you should love that.

SAR I

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