Weapons Check: Christian Hackenberg – Preseason Week 3

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jfmckenna said:

Not to not pick, but his passes looked a little wobbly to me.

They did, but that's not always super important.  Just get it there.

[Jet Nut]

24 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Right here. He sucks.

Sure he does.

If he was close to complete or as bad as people predicted it would be a fair statement. 

[Big Blocker]

Nice job by the OP, but I did feel on one play where Hack was criticized for throwing flat footed, the DL had pushed a lineman right in front of him.  It would have been impossible to follow through on the throw unless he had first moved back. But that is a hard criticism to make when the Qb is scanning the field and it is the lineman's job not to get pushed back into the pocket. 

It is clear doing the counting that Hack was victimized by too many dropped passes, and no one seeing those plays will be surprised if A Smith is cut.  Best as others have noted in addition to the strong arm and good timing down the field is pocket awareness and reading progressions.  I thought when I was watching the game that watching him in his frist game was the most exciting and interesting thing about the game.  The OP's analysis makes clear that my impression just may have been right.  Maybe this guy will be the franchise qb this team needs.  Wouldn't that be great?

[win4ever]

7 hours ago, jack48 said:

Very nice post.  I like his arm and his mind.  He has some real problems with the short stuff-I think he has to get set quicker

Thanks.  Yeah, he did a good job of going through his projections and he definitely has the arm.  If he can refine certain details in his game, he could be good.  

6 hours ago, Joe Jets fan said:

Pretty happy with how he is coming along. I do think he has such a rocket arm that he has spent too much time relying on that and not good footwork.  Reps will be very important for his development. 

Yeah, he needs a year of development, but I think the mental side of the game is already there.  He looks off safeties, has the timing down pat, but has problems with screen passes and minor mechanical issues which could cause problems in the future.  

6 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Good read! Hopefully he continues to develop and his mechanics/accuracy improve.

Thanks.  Hopefully he improves, he looked a lot better than what I was expecting.  

5 hours ago, JiF said:

3 things to love about what you saw:

1.  His composure in the pocket is very impressive for someone who supposedly has bad footwork, mechanics and has terrible awareness in college.  He stands tall in there when chaos is around him.  He never even looked for an escape route to tuck and run...which is very common for young QB's in their first live action.

2.  He can make any throw.  I saw none of those accuracy issues that everyone was talking about.  He had good ball placement and was pretty much on target with every throw.  Putting it where he needed to to keep it away from the defender and give the WR a chance.  Even the throws where the WR was covered, the ball was placed well.

3.  He's going through his progressions already.  Pretty impressive.  He's not locking onto anyone.  Another hard thing to get over at the NFL level.

 

He made a bad read on a play that fools every young QB.  They dropped a DT into coverage and he didnt even consider him.  As he read left to right, he assumed the lane would be open but big man was right there.  This is a Rex Ryan specialty.  He loves that play and it fools every young QB once or twice. Its one of the reasons he has a lot of success vs. young guys.

Overall, hard to complain about that performance. 

He definitely stays well in the pocket and doesn't seem too unsure in there.  The only time that I really thought he went away from composure was the blitz on 4th down, and the incomplete pass to Sudfeld.  He had his primary read, and a secondary (or third read) open in the middle, but he panicked and passed to Sudfeld.  

He wasn't wildly inaccurate by any means, but I think two instances where his mechanics were off.  The pass to Peake, where he opens up a bit too much, causing the ball to tail a bit, and the Anderson incomplete pass as well.  It didn't amount to much, but these are third string guys out there, he needs to improve on those things when playing with starters with the future.  

5 hours ago, Joejet said:

Great post, it shows that with some growth we may possibly have the franchise QB we've been seeking for a long time.

He definitely has the potential, so it's going to be interesting to see him in the future.  

5 hours ago, sourceworx said:

I love this guy's arm.

He does have a good arm, I think I loved the touch pass TD more than any throw.  That was just a piece of art.  It took Geno about two years to get that pass down.  

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Really good analysis.  Antoine Smith is a jaggity jag jag who totally screwed up 3 plays. 

His td pass was good, his int was SanGenoesque, his overall accuracy on the night was not good.  Rookie in his 1st game did okay and at least we finally saw the guy.  This player will succeed or fail on how he reacts to a pass rush.  When given tons of time to throw he did all right, when pressured he did not.

Thanks,  Smith was just horrible in this game, I can definitely see why he was cut by the Falcons.  

Lol, I actually wrote down something like a MarGe as a nickname for the INT, but figured it was a reach and decided not to pursue it. 

5 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Mechanics can be fixed with repetition, but it is hard to improve on pocket presence and reading defenses. This is what takes the most time with QBs coming out of college and is the reason they often fail. This, IMO, is Geno's biggest problem and he has not been able to make good improvement in this area. Hopefully, Hack's mental toughness will allow him to improve his mechanics and be the future.

Yeah, he showed a good ability to make the reads and stand in the pocket.  

However, the Giants did send people back off the line at the snap, forcing Hackenberg to make the reads.  They rarely blitzed, rather employed the same strategy as the Eagles last year and forced him to make accurate throws.  It'll be interesting to see how teams attack him in the future.  

5 hours ago, jett said:

Just an absolutely fantastic breakdown and post. I actually wasn't able to watch the second half of the game so this was great to read. 

 

His first drive looked masterful really, and you can tell he is real raw. But I have to say, even though He was 6-16, he looked pretty good. I guess I fell for all the headlines about how awful he has looked. I expected him to look like a deer in headlights. But he was composed and played well minus a few plays. If they slowly bring him along I could see him competing for the starting job eventually. I think year 3 should be the target year. It's clear to me that he still so so raw and 2 years should be the minimum before we really evaluate him. I think his ceiling is so high with him that he really should be given as much time as possible within reason. 

Thanks.  He looked much better than the stats indicated.  In my count, he made two questionable throws, the INT, and the incomplete pass to Anderson.  Other than that, I think he looked really good (albeit against 3rd string guys, but the way camp reports were, he couldn't hit a barn) and poised in the pocket.  

5 hours ago, jfmckenna said:

Excellent breakdown.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks.

4 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Great job; I know it is 3s vs. 3s, but our 3rd string O-line is just horrible. You have to wonder if he thought he was back a Penn State the way he was getting rushed towards the end.

Thanks.  The 4th down pass was horrible, because the snap is low and throws off his progression.  By the time he looks up, there is a blitzer coming free in his initial read lane, so he panics.  However, I'm not sure how much of the blame goes on Hackenberg there, but he does have to make a better pass.  

4 hours ago, YankeeJet22 said:

I think his "lack of mechanics" is overblown.

It doesn't quite show up on tape here, but I think there are issues that he needs to fix.  It didn't cost him much in this game, but against better corners, they would take advantage.  

4 hours ago, Joejet said:

I just watched this post again and wanted to make some additional comments.  All of the posts that we read about from training camp made it sound like Hack couldn't make throws that PeeWee qb's make, either that was a gross exaggeration or we aren't paying our offensive staff enough money because they are miracle workers.

When I saw the first throw live at the game I thought wow he was way off with that throw, as I watch it on this video I get a totally different perspective.  He went through his progressions completely and correctly threw the ball down and away as the defender was closer than I had realized.  That is a catch the receiver should make.

He does need to clean up his throws on screen passes as a couple of those should have been better and could have been big gainers.

The throw to Sudfeld for the first down was a quality NFL QB throw. He led him away from the defense and the throw was pinpoint accurate as to where it neede to be.

The TD pass was accurate with perfect touch.

In summary there were a number of very good reads and very good passes that show the potential we are all hoping for.  There was also a number of reads and throws that show the improvement that is needed.  I guess what pleases me is that he showed much better touch and accuracy than what we were led to believe he would.  He also seems advanced in looking off defenses and progressing through his reads.

That first throw to Worthy was weird for me as well watching it in real time.  For some reason, I thought the ball bounced, but on replay, it was a great throw.  

The screen pass inability is really puzzling at this point.  If you go back and watch the college scouting analysis, you see the same issues popping up there as well with screen passes.   It's almost as if he doesn't trust enough to throw over a lineman with touch, rather he looks for weird angles to fire them into.

Yeah, I was expecting an absolute horrible showing, and he did surprise me.  He did seem nervous, because running out of playclock on third and long is painful.  It wasn't as if it was close, he seemed genuinely surprised when it ran out, since he was still in the middle of calling out progressions.

4 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Some guys also just bring their A game when the lights come on. Maybe he's a gameday quarterback - I'll take it!

That could be the case, he definitely looked better than what I was led to believe.

4 hours ago, MaxAF said:

Didn't see what a expected for a 1st year QB's first game. They are typically staring down receivers, running the ball, throwing wildly off target. Hack had pressure, alot of it, and kept composed. To see him going through progressions and moving his eyes and direction from one receiver to another is light years from most young QB's entering the NFL.  He does have a good football IQ like they said. That's something that's hard to teach. To see that this early is great. I believe this kid has a future and a good one in the NFL. Mechanics and footwork do need improvement but that will come with time. He's got a strong arm and relies on it over proper mechanics. Overall I think he did very well on his debut performance. I hope we see more of Hack next week.

The progressions were probably the best thing about his play, and it was noticeable.  I don't know if it's because I've seen Sanchez/Geno/Fitz stare down WRs from the snap, but it was such a welcome change to see a QB who can turn his head.  I hope we see a full two quarters of Hackenberg atleast, so we can watch how he develops.  

 

4 hours ago, cant wait said:

nice work, keep writing for JN

Thanks.

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Imagine the possibilities of Hackenberg and Forte playing together (if that opportunity presents itself; given Forte's age it's not a given).  Or even Bilal Powell. 

It would be interesting to see him with a competent RB.  The Giants essentially dropped back everyone into coverage, which was why they tried a few screen passes, so it'll be interesting to see how teams react when they have to account for a real RB.  

3 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Awesome  post. A little too much emphasis on stepping into throws. I saw a segment on QB play by Dan Marino that said in the NFL you throw a lot of throws off the back foot or flat footed, because of timing and the spred of the NFL. Now the criticism might be valI'd here, but it might not as well. 

Thanks.  It didn't matter much in this game, but this is a big problem for him from college.  He throws passes flatfooted sometimes, which tends to hold up the ball longer, allowing CBs to get back into plays.  

3 hours ago, Larz said:

getting to his 5th option was nice to see.  I am hopeful

 

Yeah, and first throw as well.

3 hours ago, PepPep said:

I saw mostly good things from Hack. He really looks, as I had thought, to be a much better in-game QB. I other words, he coudl look bad inpractice, [but once he goes out there and starts reading defenses and settles in, he an pick a defense apart. 

A few additional comments that I don;t think others have mentioned.

-Although he showed great pocket presence and good awareness for a rookie, you can tell he still needs a clean pocket to make a good, accurate throw. I don't think he will ever be a Big Ben or A.Rodgers type of QB that can make great, accurate throws with guys draped all over them or a Russel Wilson type who can elude trouble and put himself back into great throwing position. He will need the pocket to hold up to be successful.  

-When I first saw the replay of his INT I was relieved. Why? Because as bad as it looked, the simple fact that this was a DT falling into coverage tells me that this kind of bad pass is an outlier and fools rookies all the time. I doubt he makes a mistake like that again in the near future.

-Both Geno and Hack have great arms (best on the Jets). But Hack throws it with way more touch, making it much easier for the WR to catch it, even when he has to zip it in. It's just another one of those innate QB things you see from Hack which makes him LOOK like a natural QB. Accuracy and arm strength aside, he doesn't overthrow it if he doesn't have to.   

-We did not see that much play-action. Hack is very good at utilizing the play-action effectively. The Jets did not run the ball very well and Hack did not get much of an opportunity to show what he can do with the play-action. If Hack is in and the Jets get a good run game going, I expect to see some BOMBS.  

I think Geno learned to throw with more touch as the games went on, but it did not click for him this quickly.  He came out like many young QBs, thinking, I'm going to throw my fastball into any open area, and paid for it.  

I didn't think the Giants were really biting on the play action because they didn't seem to have much respect for Smith.  For a speedster, he gets tackled in open space quite a bit.  

2 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Dude is solid in the pocket.  No happy feet. For a guy that is supposed to stink he is very comfortable doing it.

Yeah, he stayed tall in the pocket for the most part.  

[win4ever]

2 hours ago, Xtina said:

Towards the very end when they needed a long throw to even dream of getting into field goal range the announcers were saying Aaron Rodgers could do it but Hackenberg doesn't have the arm. Huh? How would they know? To back it up people here are saying that's what he's relied on vs footwork. Glad Gailey didn't ask him to go for the bomb 

I didn't bother to include those throws, they were just useless.  The first one, the Giants rushed 3 I believe, and they still got to him before routes materialized, so he threw it at Sudfeld.  He has a cannon, there is no problem with him throwing deep passes at all.  It's his accuracy that suffers on deep passes, because they have a tendency to float when he throws flat footed.  Since this was just a pre-season game, there was no need to go for all out hail mary passes here. 

2 hours ago, jfmckenna said:

Not to not pick, but his passes looked a little wobbly to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A couple were wobbly, but from different angles, it didn't look horrible.  The pass to Peake from the side angle looks wobbly, but an endzone angle shows that it wasn't horrible.  

1 hour ago, Big Blocker said:

Nice job by the OP, but I did feel on one play where Hack was criticized for throwing flat footed, the DL had pushed a lineman right in front of him.  It would have been impossible to follow through on the throw unless he had first moved back. But that is a hard criticism to make when the Qb is scanning the field and it is the lineman's job not to get pushed back into the pocket. 

It is clear doing the counting that Hack was victimized by too many dropped passes, and no one seeing those plays will be surprised if A Smith is cut.  Best as others have noted in addition to the strong arm and good timing down the field is pocket awareness and reading progressions.  I thought when I was watching the game that watching him in his frist game was the most exciting and interesting thing about the game.  The OP's analysis makes clear that my impression just may have been right.  Maybe this guy will be the franchise qb this team needs.  Wouldn't that be great?

Thanks.  I thought he had enough room to step into the throw, or reset his feet a bit and still step into it.  

I think the only reason Smith is on the team is because they need someone to go out there next week and run the ball, and take a pounding.  He looked horrible.  Yeah, I didn't really care about the rest of the game, was hoping to see Hackenberg play.  I might do another one on Robby Anderson, but other than that, no one really stood out.  I'm not sure there is a market for punter film breakdowns, lol.  

[Augustiniak]

for someone who everyone said sucked in camp so far this was very encouraging.

heck, they're saying goff looks like garbage, just think what the rams are going through now.  

[TheMagicRat]

As previously stated, for a quarterback that has apparently sucked in camp and only received limited reps, he did pretty well out there. I hope we see more of him on Thursday. Though I'm not looking forward to the "OMGZZ Hackenberg is a bust!!!!!111" threads if he does not do well (or the "bench Fitz, start Hack" if he does well ).

[win4ever]

7 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

for someone who everyone said sucked in camp so far this was very encouraging.

heck, they're saying goff looks like garbage, just think what the rams are going through now.  

I think Goff will be fine, I love the tools there, but he's going to take time to adjust and I'm not sure Fisher is a good coach to begin with.  Besides those early years in Tenneesee, this guy has disappointed big time, but people seem to look up to him like a coaching superstar. 

I think Goff needs a bit of time, but I fully expect him to be good in due time.  

It is encouraging, because almost all tweets from camp seemed to be "Hackenberg in now, air traffic rerouting planes" type jokes.  

7 hours ago, TheMagicRat said:

As previously stated, for a quarterback that has apparently sucked in camp and only received limited reps, he did pretty well out there. I hope we see more of him on Thursday. Though I'm not looking forward to the "OMGZZ Hackenberg is a bust!!!!!111" threads if he does not do well (or the "bench Fitz, start Hack" if he does well ).

It's going to happen anyway, lol.   

A)  Hackenberg is the greatest, in MAC we trust

B} Hackernberg is the worst, have you seen Player X on Team B?  I wanted him, I swear. 

C) A combination of both, as one side argues he's great while the other thinks he sucked.  

D)  It's only pre-season, we should be glad that football is around the corner posts. 

[Mogglez]

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Where are the Hack hatters who went overboard with their criticism of a player they never saw?  Where are the clowns who thought he was a bust, sight unseen?  

 

I wanted to mention this, specifically to the guy who was actually 100% serious when he said that we should just cut him, but I know calling posters out is frowned upon round these parts and I kinda agree with that policy....but boy is it tempting. 

You'd think Hackenberg gave an entire village the bubonic plague from the level of hate he got here the last few weeks.

[Big Blocker]

8 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I wanted to mention this, specifically to the guy who was actually 100% serious when he said that we should just cut him, but I know calling posters out is frowned upon round these parts and I kinda agree with that policy....but boy is it tempting. 

You'd think Hackenberg gave an entire village the bubonic plague from the level of hate he got here the last few weeks.

My impression was they were Idzik fans, or more accurately those who did not understand the full order of suck magnitude that was Idzik, and feel defensive about it.

[PepPep]

2 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

My impression was they were Idzik fans, or more accurately those who did not understand the full order of suck magnitude that was Idzik, and feel defensive about it.

I think they are just Jets fans who have suffered through draft pick after draft pick of QBs that never really panned out. Taking Hack in the 2nd round after so much bad tape his last 3 years in college and then watching him struggle in camp/practice, I'm not surprised so many came out and piled on him. 

For the record, I hated the Sanchez pick, loved the Geno pick and loved the Hack pick. So we will see. I guess I'm one and one so far?  

[Mogglez]

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

I think they are just Jets fans who have suffered through draft pick after draft pick of QBs that never really panned out. Taking Hack in the 2nd round after so much bad tape his last 3 years in college and then watching him struggle in camp/practice, I'm not surprised so many came out and piled on him. 

For the record, I hated the Sanchez pick, loved the Geno pick and loved the Hack pick. So we will see. I guess I'm one and one so far?  

I understand that, it at the same time. There were moments on that tape that showed promise too and not only that, the kid hadn't even stepped foot on a practice field and people were declaring him a bust.  That's ridiculous.  You know what two of my least favorite draft picks were over the last decade were?  Sheldon Richardson and Calvin Pryor.  Not because of the talent, I certainly liked them from that stand point, but because I felt that they were total luxury picks at the time and there other people I wanted.  However, instead of letting that feeling fester and permeate into every little discussion on the player, I decided to let the player prove me right or wrong because like it or not he's a Jet and I root for the laundry, not the individuals.  

With Hack, I could rattle 3 posters off the top of my head, who I won't name, that basically couldn't wait for a minor screw up (INT, Fumble, Incompletion) just so that they could talk about how right they were about him and circlejerk with one another.  They are pretty much actively rooting for the kid to fail, all so they can stroke their own ego's. Pretty sad, to be honest. Just root for the kid to succeed. It's in our best interest.

[win4ever]

10 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

My impression was they were Idzik fans, or more accurately those who did not understand the full order of suck magnitude that was Idzik, and feel defensive about it.

Idzik had the right idea, and honestly, I liked his first draft.  Sheldon/Milliner/Geno isn't bad for a first draft.  He really screwed up the second draft after pushing all his chips in on it.   It was probably the greatest receiver draft ever, and he invested 3 picks plus Amaro (who was basically just a big WR) and came away with Enunwa.   

18 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I wanted to mention this, specifically to the guy who was actually 100% serious when he said that we should just cut him, but I know calling posters out is frowned upon round these parts and I kinda agree with that policy....but boy is it tempting. 

You'd think Hackenberg gave an entire village the bubonic plague from the level of hate he got here the last few weeks.

The pick wasn't my favorite, I saw Hackenberg as a 4th round option, that may move up to a third round pick.  I was very surprised to see him picked that high because I was all in on Alexander (who I thought could have been an option with our first pick) or Boyd. 

But for what he is, a project QB, he's a great project.  The payoff could be quite extensive, and I can't wait to see him again in the pre-season.  I already know I'm doing a breakdown of that film from Thursday night's game because that's really the most intriguing part of camp left right now.  

It's also a rare case of seeing player development.  He has the mental and physical tools, he needs to sharpen the little things to get better, and it would be interesting to see how it goes.  Usually, QBs have the physical tools but lack mental tools.  If they have mental tools, they lack physical tools.  If they have both, top 5 picks.  It's rare to see someone that has the upper tier tool set on both sides, do so badly, but if they could fix some of his minor problems, then it could be a really good pick.  It's akin to size/speed guy with good hands, who can't run routes.  If the staff can just teach him the intricacies, it's very well worth it.  

4 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I understand that, it at the same time. There were moments on that tape that showed promise too and not only that, the kid hadn't even stepped foot on a practice field and people were declaring him a bust.  That's ridiculous.  You know what two of my least favorite draft picks were over the last decade were?  Sheldon Richardson and Calvin Pryor.  Not because of the talent, I certainly liked them from that stand point, but because I felt that they were total luxury picks at the time and there other people I wanted.  However, instead of letting that feeling fester and permeate into every little discussion on the player, I decided to let the player prove me right or wrong because like it or not he's a Jet and I root for the laundry, not the individuals.  

With Hack, I could rattle 3 posters off the top of my head, who I won't name, that basically couldn't wait for a minor screw up (INT, Fumble, Incompletion) just so that they could talk about how right they were about him and circlejerk with one another.  They are pretty much actively rooting for the kid to fail, all so they can stroke their own ego's. Pretty sad, to be honest. Just root for the kid to succeed. It's in our best interest.

Lol, I think I flipped out when Richardson was picked.  I didn't even like Richardson as much as I liked Star Lotulelei out of Utah I believe.  And even then, I was like weary of going DE, but it worked out OK.  

Once the pick is made, you have to move on.  I hated the Fitz signing, argued against it all winter, but I root for him to succeed, because if he throws an interception, it just hurts the Jets.  Hackenberg is a lotto ticket that the Jets got at a discount, because two years ago, he was the Josh Rosen of the NCAA.  People penciled him in as the No. 1 pick easily.  If we can reverse some of the damage done by Franklin, it'd be great.  

[win4ever]

Also, GGN did an article on Hackenberg:

http://www.ganggreennation.com/2016/8/29/12685228/a-look-at-christian-hackenbergs-jets-debut

And an interview with the guy that broke down his film vs. Temple last year:

http://www.ganggreennation.com/2016/8/30/12708448/what-is-christian-hackenbergs-potential

It's a nice read and listen.  

[Big Blocker]

^

Milliner and Smith were not good picks.  Idzik had two first round picks and a second, and he came away with one player who lived up to his draft status.

[win4ever]

6 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

^

Milliner and Smith were not good picks.  Idzik had two first round picks and a second, and he came away with one player who lived up to his draft status.

Milliner and Smith were good picks at the time because a lot of the "experts" had both of them going in the top 10.

Milliner I think would have been good, but injuries failed him.  Geno for a second round pick isn't a total failure because these are the guys picked around him:. Manti Teo, Robert Woods, Tank Carradine, etc.

Retrospectively we can say they should have picked X player or Y player, but there were a ton of busts in that draft.  I'm not saying Idzik did a good job, but the first three picks of that year weren't horrible, but turned out bad when Milliner got hurt.