Its Not Just The Players

[Jet Nut]

40 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

Gotta blame somebody.  Fitz is a Harvard scholar and Bowles is riding Arians Coat tails . This one is easy .

True

[joewilly12]

43 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

Gotta blame somebody.  Fitz is a Harvard scholar and Bowles is riding Arians Coat tails . This one is easy .

So tell us then whats wrong with this team,id like to hear your opinions. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On 9/26/2016 at 7:29 AM, Smashmouth said:

HC's coach more than just the defense they coach the entire team including Special Teams and Offense both of which needed some adjustments yesterday and in past games. This is not an over reaction and this IS NOT just about yesterdays game its about a head coach making the same mistakes over and over and the glaring one is clock management.

We have extensive depth at the WR position and yet we still see balls being thrown at Jalin Marshall who drops numerous passes and fumbles on special teams. While a player like Robbie Anderson who showed much more promise at the position through out the pre season and in training camp rides the bench. What is so special about a rookie who makes mistake after mistake while the other rookie who shoes NONE of those tendencies and is 4 inches taller yet gets no red zone reps ? At what point do you sit Marshall to at least send a message to a very talented kid that giving the ball away and dropping it over and over  IS NOT AN OPTION in the NFL.

In the case of Fitz he played a terrible game no excuses here but if there is any defense of him at all we kept calling the same plays into the teeth of their defense with no change the entire game. Fitz did have some pressure in the pocket and at some point the smart thing to do was to just throw the ball away if there was no other option other than to force the ball into double and triple coverage. Based on the time he had there was no other option. That's not a defense of Fitz because in the end he still made the bad decisions and bad throws so rather than trying to make it happen he should have just thrown the ball away.

What Im asking is to look at the entire body of Bowles work over the last year + and you see the same major issues. No Adjustments and horrible clock management.

Lol at "no excuses here" above. 

Fitz's QB rating with no pressure on him in a clean pocket was 10.5. When it was all tallied, he was pressured on 10 of 47 dropbacks, making him just about the league's least pressured QB in week 3.  But you blame pressure on him while claiming to provide no excuses. We kept calling the same plays but when the QB saw they had it covered with everyone lined up before the snap (what was presumably obvious to you pre-huddle) the super smart and aware veteran QB simply allowed this pre-huddle play to go forward anyway. But again, no excuses for his performance. Other than the multiple excuses you then provide to help excuse his performance.

Also it is a silly statement to pull a player to "teach" him that fumbling is not acceptable (like he was unaware of this his whole HS and college career, and needs someone like you to first inform him of this now). As though getting pulled during the game is what teaches this and not technique coaching & sufficient repetition in between the games. Benching him for another, better-performing or better matchup player mid-game is fine and appropriate. Benching him to make him paranoid of his next mistake, and tentative of his own movements the next time he's out there, is a good way to ruin any ballplayer's effectiveness. 

Benching a player as a teaching mechanism is useful to correct things like self control problems, lack of work put in during the week, or a general lack of effort on the field, to induce a correction in personal behavior to out of control jackasses or work ethic to the lazy. I've never heard a successful player say in hindsight he had big fumbling problems during games, and what taught him to cure it was getting benched, rather than coaching technique, repetition, or even for some, equipment like grippier gloves or arm sleeves. 

Left to you, the expression wouldn't be get back on the horse; it'd be take the horse away for a couple of weeks outright as punishment & that will teach one to stay on it without falling off. 

[Tinstar]

9 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

So tell us then whats wrong with this team,id like to hear your opinions. 

Simply put, we have no QB worth a darn . I know Fitzpatrick is not the future, but he offers the best option in the present. It's the only reason he has a job this season . Coaches have to try and win games, especially when they are starting out in their careers . They don't have the luxury to lose while developing a QB because it's 2 yrs and goodbye if the team is not winning . I like Bowles, but I would have love him had he had the Sand to start Geno, and find out once and for all if he could be a starter or a decent backup option . The next option would be to move on to Petty learn the same and then move on to Hackenberg if neither Smith or Petty stepped forward . 

That's a plan, but what we are doing now is spinning our wheels in the mud . These 3 kids will never develop without being allowed to make mistakes, lose and learn .

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol at "no excuses here" above. 

Fitz's QB rating with no pressure on him in a clean pocket was 10.5. When it was all tallied, he was pressured on 10 of 47 dropbacks, making him just about the league's least pressured QB in week 3.  But you blame pressure on him while claiming to provide no excuses. We kept calling the same plays but when the QB saw they had it covered with everyone lined up before the snap (what was presumably obvious to you pre-huddle) the super smart and aware veteran QB simply allowed this pre-huddle play to go forward anyway. But again, no excuses for his performance. Other than the multiple excuses you then provide to help excuse his performance.

Also it is a silly statement to pull a player to "teach" him that fumbling is not acceptable (like he was unaware of this his whole HS and college career, and needs someone like you to first inform him of this now). As though getting pulled during the game is what teaches this and not technique coaching & sufficient repetition in between the games. Benching him for another, better-performing or better matchup player mid-game is fine and appropriate. Benching him to make him paranoid of his next mistake, and tentative of his own movements the next time he's out there, is a good way to ruin any ballplayer's effectiveness. 

Benching a player as a teaching mechanism is useful to correct things like self control problems, lack of work put in during the week, or a general lack of effort on the field, to induce a correction in personal behavior to out of control jackasses or work ethic to the lazy. I've never heard a successful player say in hindsight he had big fumbling problems during games, and what taught him to cure it was getting benched, rather than coaching technique, repetition, or even for some, equipment like grippier gloves or arm sleeves. 

Left to you, the expression wouldn't be get back on the horse; it'd be take the horse away for a couple of weeks outright as punishment & that will teach one to stay on it without falling off. 

NFLN confirmed what you stated, Fitz was the least pressured QB in week 3.  Adds to the question of why he insisted on forcing throws into first reads who were doubled.

 

[Smashmouth]

17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol at "no excuses here" above. 

Fitz's QB rating with no pressure on him in a clean pocket was 10.5. When it was all tallied, he was pressured on 10 of 47 dropbacks, making him just about the league's least pressured QB in week 3.  But you blame pressure on him while claiming to provide no excuses. We kept calling the same plays but when the QB saw they had it covered with everyone lined up before the snap (what was presumably obvious to you pre-huddle) the super smart and aware veteran QB simply allowed this pre-huddle play to go forward anyway. But again, no excuses for his performance. Other than the multiple excuses you then provide to help excuse his performance.

Also it is a silly statement to pull a player to "teach" him that fumbling is not acceptable (like he was unaware of this his whole HS and college career, and needs someone like you to first inform him of this now). As though getting pulled during the game is what teaches this and not technique coaching & sufficient repetition in between the games. Benching him for another, better-performing or better matchup player mid-game is fine and appropriate. Benching him to make him paranoid of his next mistake, and tentative of his own movements the next time he's out there, is a good way to ruin any ballplayer's effectiveness. 

Benching a player as a teaching mechanism is useful to correct things like self control problems, lack of work put in during the week, or a general lack of effort on the field, to induce a correction in personal behavior to out of control jackasses or work ethic to the lazy. I've never heard a successful player say in hindsight he had big fumbling problems during games, and what taught him to cure it was getting benched, rather than coaching technique, repetition, or even for some, equipment like grippier gloves or arm sleeves. 

Left to you, the expression wouldn't be get back on the horse; it'd be take the horse away for a couple of weeks outright as punishment & that will teach one to stay on it without falling off. 

LOL at this ridiculous post.

I plainly state how I felt about Fitz play but you in all your infinite wisdom pull out of that is I'm protecting Fitz . The offensive game plan stunk and was NOT adjusted. Fitz stunk and continued to stink throughout the game. At some point either the QB or QC needs to make some kind of change and neither one of them did. In the end Fitz threw 6 Ints I could give a sh*t less what PFF or you says about what they perceive as pressure to me it felt like the pocket was closing numerous times either way NO EXCUSE.

About Fumbling I guess coaches like Parcells and Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick are all wrong because Sperm says benching a rookie who has fumbled multiple times and dropped multiple passes is ok and compares it to riding a horse. Genius.

Whats irritating is that players like Robbie Anderson and Charon Peake both totally out performed Marshall in both training camp and in the pre season yet Marshall gets the lions share of the offensive snaps compared to those 2 players . Whats Even more hilarious is the amount of Red zone snaps he gets over the 2 much larger WR's who have both shown very good abilities in the red zone. DUMB Coaching. DUMB.

Bottom line... no matter what you or PFF says the Jets are not making adjustments during games on either side of the ball. In game one they repeatedly got beat by one GREAT player in single coverage situations no attempt was made to double him and he ate us up throughout the game singlehandedly beating us. The same thing vs the Bills in a game we should have just blown them out. In game 3 it was the offense playing right into the teeth of the defense once again  no changes.

This thread was about the coaching staff and their faults I was NOT trying to make excuses for Fitz like you claim I was just posting what I saw to be issues. That has nothing to do with Fitz being an Idiot and throwing 6 Ints it was in addition to it.

THis team once again suffers from a poor head coach and will probably continue too. The topic is about the coaching

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

LOL at this ridiculous post.

I plainly state how I felt about Fitz play but you in all your infinite wisdom pull out of that is I'm protecting Fitz . The offensive game plan stunk and was NOT adjusted. Fitz stunk and continued to stink throughout the game. At some point either the QB or QC needs to make some kind of change and neither one of them did. In the end Fitz threw 6 Ints I could give a sh*t less what PFF or you says about what they perceive as pressure to me it felt like the pocket was closing numerous times either way NO EXCUSE.

About Fumbling I guess coaches like Parcells and Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick are all wrong because Sperm says benching a rookie who has fumbled multiple times and dropped multiple passes is ok and compares it to riding a horse. Genius.

Whats irritating is that players like Robbie Anderson and Charon Peake both totally out performed Marshall in both training camp and in the pre season yet Marshall gets the lions share of the offensive snaps compared to those 2 players . Whats Even more hilarious is the amount of Red zone snaps he gets over the 2 much larger WR's who have both shown very good abilities in the red zone. DUMB Coaching. DUMB.

Bottom line... no matter what you or PFF says the Jets are not making adjustments during games on either side of the ball. In game one they repeatedly got beat by one GREAT player in single coverage situations no attempt was made to double him and he ate us up throughout the game singlehandedly beating us. The same thing vs the Bills in a game we should have just blown them out. In game 3 it was the offense playing right into the teeth of the defense once again  no changes.

This thread was about the coaching staff and their faults I was NOT trying to make excuses for Fitz like you claim I was just posting what I saw to be issues. That has nothing to do with Fitz being an Idiot and throwing 6 Ints it was in addition to it.

THis team once again suffers from a poor head coach and will probably continue too. The topic is about the coaching

Nope. I didn't say not to bench him for poor performance. I said benching in and of itself doesn't teach him ("send a message to him") not to fumble as you think. The very notion is preposterous. 

Land you most certainly were making excuses for him. "I'm not making excuses for him but here are reasons why it's not his fault," including making things up out of thin air like this repeated phantom pressure he wasn't under leading to failed pass attempts. 

Go watch/read even the JN film study thread and it's laid out how often the same play can have a high chance of success if not run poorly by the QB. Also they simply fooled Fitz repeatedly with their presnap looks because too often he's a one trick pony: stare down #1 target and throw it up for grabs even into double or triple coverage, because sometimes Marshall comes down with it anyway. 

See, as bad as the 6 picks (or 4 other shoulda-been picked throws) were, it's just a horrible stat, but that's all you seem to see with him or just say "he stunk" which doesn't nearly cover as many ruined plays as you suggest were undone in advance by the play calling. Fitz ruined way more plays than you suggest with both his mental and physical limitations as a QB. No OC in the league calls all good plays, certainly not Gailey, and when even well thought out plays fail they all still look stupid in hindsight. Thing is, Fitz made a good 20+ would be successful passing play calls into failed or "stupid" ones with his repeated locking in on one receiver, stupid or panic decisions in a clean pocket, and his inaccurate poorly placed throws even when he threw to the right man. Then toss in a Marshall drop or Powell fumble, and even where Fitz did nothing wrong you have still more would-be successful play calls that ended in failure. 

We could have and should have won that game, and week 1, and a 3-0 record was attainable.

The biggest coaching problem, unfortunately, seems more and more to be Bowles, who's going nowhere for at least another 2 seasons.

[Jet Nut]

9 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

LOL at this ridiculous post.

I plainly state how I felt about Fitz play but you in all your infinite wisdom pull out of that is I'm protecting Fitz . The offensive game plan stunk and was NOT adjusted. Fitz stunk and continued to stink throughout the game. At some point either the QB or QC needs to make some kind of change and neither one of them did. In the end Fitz threw 6 Ints I could give a sh*t less what PFF or you says about what they perceive as pressure to me it felt like the pocket was closing numerous times either way NO EXCUSE.

About Fumbling I guess coaches like Parcells and Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick are all wrong because Sperm says benching a rookie who has fumbled multiple times and dropped multiple passes is ok and compares it to riding a horse. Genius.

Whats irritating is that players like Robbie Anderson and Charon Peake both totally out performed Marshall in both training camp and in the pre season yet Marshall gets the lions share of the offensive snaps compared to those 2 players . Whats Even more hilarious is the amount of Red zone snaps he gets over the 2 much larger WR's who have both shown very good abilities in the red zone. DUMB Coaching. DUMB.

Bottom line... no matter what you or PFF says the Jets are not making adjustments during games on either side of the ball. In game one they repeatedly got beat by one GREAT player in single coverage situations no attempt was made to double him and he ate us up throughout the game singlehandedly beating us. The same thing vs the Bills in a game we should have just blown them out. In game 3 it was the offense playing right into the teeth of the defense once again  no changes.

This thread was about the coaching staff and their faults I was NOT trying to make excuses for Fitz like you claim I was just posting what I saw to be issues. That has nothing to do with Fitz being an Idiot and throwing 6 Ints it was in addition to it.

THis team once again suffers from a poor head coach and will probably continue too. The topic is about the coaching

So you think playing Marshall over two different bottom of the roster WRs, that you have no idea how they're playing in practice, is what determines bad coaching?  Or a fumble by your kick returner?  Or stupid throws by your very limited QB? Or is it because no matter what anyone says you see pressure when there wasn't any?

Again, hard to look good as a coach when your QB is forcing the ball and turning the ball over at a historic rate. But then again for that you have excuses

[LIJetsFan]

What is so hard to understand that Sixpatrick should have been pulled at some point during that game?

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

What is so hard to understand that Sixpatrick should have been pulled at some point during that game?

Even if the OC is telling him through the headset how badly he's throwing and misreading, the thing that's easy for us but hard for the HC to do, is pull him when the picks aren't happening at the alarming rate yet due to luck. In other words, the rate at which he was ignoring the way the post-snap D is behaving differently than what he sees pre-snap, combined with the general off-day with his accuracy even if/when he read everything properly, suggests he could have been pulled earlier (even before the actual pick totals got into ridiculous territory). Unfortunately, there isn't much in the cupboard and talent at the receiver position hides enough of his warts for a HC to rationalize keeping him out there because he's also the unquestioned team leader (it certainly isn't Geno, and sadly it's looking like it isn't Bowles either, other than by job title).

But while the # of picks this game is unusual, it's only unusual because he was having a particularly off-target game tossing it plus Bowles inexplicably kept him in there even after the 4th & 5th picks (you almost never see it happen because the QB gets pulled from the game 99% of the time when he's this bad). This was a pattern seen last year when his receivers weren't so open. He throws behind his guys way too often, and that's just more evident when the coverage is tighter. Throwing behind them when they're wide open, ok it's still completed but it's just not as big/long of a play as it could have been. Throw behind when the WR's blanketed (particularly in front and behind, or when he's sandwiched between a DB and the sideline) and it's a pick, or if you're lucky it's dropped or hits the DB in the head because his back was to the ball. 

This is the natural eventuality to the warnings shown by the supposedly "irrelevant" stat of "interceptable" passes. It means he's throwing badly enough to get picked off 30+ times in a season, but stupid/blind luck intervened & allowed the stat line to read half that or less. Even top QBs benefit from at least a few DB/LB drops, in addition to the picks they actually throw, but not nearly at this rate. It's why it is unsurprising to see these periodic multi-pick games from present and past Jets QBs - whether Fitz or Geno or Sanchez - who had previously benefitted from such dumb luck. When a QB finishes a season with 15-20 interceptable passes it should come as no surprise that there will also be multiple games with 2 or more picks when they aren't dropped. The only surprise is how little it happened last year. It would happen even more if DBs had receivers' hands, but the expectation can't be that they'll continue to simply drop passes that hit them in the hands, waist, chest, or face because they did in the past. Having more than half of one's interceptable passes get dropped is not a repeatable stat because it relies on our mistakes only (or mostly) happening exactly when the opponent makes one. 

The misreading of the potential for these bad plays happens all the time. It's just a matter of how often or effectively the D makes any of these bad QBs pay for it by disguising things before the snap or by being able to cover receivers more tightly. Or put more generally, how good is the team a bad QB is playing against, both in terms of how good their D is and how many points are needed through the air when the D knows we're probably passing. This is why there's the discrepancy - particularly for him - with playing good vs bad teams/defenses. The good ones don't typically drop most of them, and they're in the right place more often. Then there are other factors that make it additionally more difficult, like the ground game not being there or receivers dropping passes. Forget about whether they're dropping "key" passes; unless you're talking about a dropped dumpoff on 2nd & 5 or less, or a game that's already out of reach for us or our opponent, they're all "key" passes. 

Anyway to an extent, one makes one's own luck in the long term. When facing mostly easy & injury-riddled teams, a bad/dumb QB can get very lucky in the short term, but like in Vegas, in the end the house always wins. We aren't going to luck our way to a superbowl. 

[Smashmouth]

Gee I really didn't know a QB was supposed to read (pre snap) LB's dropping into zone coverage but I know that now since Sperm made us all aware of that.

 

[LIJetsFan]

http://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/81697/how-the-jets-may-have-lucked-into-a-way-to-minimize-loss-of-eric-decker

4. Eye on Bowles: The coach is catching some flak for supposedly not making proper halftime adjustments. The best way to gauge this is to check the third-quarter scoring. Right now, the Jets have a minus-14 point differential, which ranks 30th in the league. The most egregious error was not changing their coverage on A.J. Green in the opener, but I'm not going to hammer Bowles because three games is a small sample size and they finished ninth in point differential last season.

5. Changing defenses: Even though Bowles keeps saying they're a 3-4 defense, it seems as if they've transitioned to a 4-3 front. By my count, they used a 4-3 for 21 base plays last week and only four plays in a 3-4.

The upside: Muhammad Wilkerson, Sheldon Richardson and Leonard Williams are on the field at the same time. The downside: There's too much size and not enough speed in the front seven, leaving them vulnerable to outside runs and quick passes.

6. A Wally Pipp situation? I'm curious to see how first-round pick Darron Lee and Erin Henderson are used Sunday. Lee started last week for the injured Henderson and played well at inside linebacker. Now Henderson is healthy. Don't be surprised if there's a rotation.

[Xtina]

On September 26, 2016 at 7:47 AM, bealeb319 said:

IDK maybe he is the next BB, maybe his team is just better than ours? The fact that in three games  his team has looked good means very little in comparison. 

Just imagine if the Jets lost their first round QB and HOF RB all in two weeks. The garment rending would have everyone naked 

[UnitedWhofans]

37 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

http://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/81697/how-the-jets-may-have-lucked-into-a-way-to-minimize-loss-of-eric-decker

4. Eye on Bowles: The coach is catching some flak for supposedly not making proper halftime adjustments. The best way to gauge this is to check the third-quarter scoring. Right now, the Jets have a minus-14 point differential, which ranks 30th in the league. The most egregious error was not changing their coverage on A.J. Green in the opener, but I'm not going to hammer Bowles because three games is a small sample size and they finished ninth in point differential last season.

5. Changing defenses: Even though Bowles keeps saying they're a 3-4 defense, it seems as if they've transitioned to a 4-3 front. By my count, they used a 4-3 for 21 base plays last week and only four plays in a 3-4.

The upside: Muhammad Wilkerson, Sheldon Richardson and Leonard Williams are on the field at the same time. The downside: There's too much size and not enough speed in the front seven, leaving them vulnerable to outside runs and quick passes.

6. A Wally Pipp situation? I'm curious to see how first-round pick Darron Lee and Erin Henderson are used Sunday. Lee started last week for the injured Henderson and played well at inside linebacker. Now Henderson is healthy. Don't be surprised if there's a rotation.

Well the last point of 5 can be countered by 6