Rookie Report through 3 weeks

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, Big Blocker said:

No, since the Jets need a franchise Qb more than a linebacker, you are plain wrong. 

Yes, but just because a player becomes a franchise QB for another team doesnt mean he becomes one here.

Different environment, different fan base. different expectations

[PepPep]

I love Hack as a developmental QB prospect. He could turn into something special if the Jets are smart and bring him up slowly. I don;t care about the rookie QBs out there and what they are doing for their teams. Good for them. Hack looks like a good pick to me and I'm excited to see what he can do once the coaching staff thinks he is ready. 

[The Crimson King]

3 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I love Hack as a developmental QB prospect. He could turn into something special if the Jets are smart and bring him up slowly. I don;t care about the rookie QBs out there and what they are doing for their teams. Good for them. Hack looks like a good pick to me and I'm excited to see what he can do once the coaching staff thinks he is ready. 

Question is, can you teach accuracy?

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I love Hack as a developmental QB prospect. He could turn into something special if the Jets are smart and bring him up slowly.

What have you seen, in the last thee years (2014-2016 i.e. NOT his freshman year of college) that leads you to this belief?

What did you see in Hackenberg's preseason appearances that leads you to this belief, specifically?

I'm honestly curious.  

To be clear, I have no problem with long term developmental picks (although a 2nd rounder is a big high for that), or picks that will need 2-3 years to be ready to play (if at all).

I just don't seem to see what Hack's more supportive fans see.  Kid had one good year in college, as a Freshman, and has stunk up every field he's played on since, including here in preseason.  Whats more likely, his freshman year was the oddity, or the three full years since was the oddity?

We're stuck with him for the next 4-5 years, so it is what it is, I'd just love to know what, other than his freshman year or supposed elite high schooler status, people see in him right now.

[PepPep]

37 minutes ago, Warfish said:

What have you seen, in the last thee years (2014-2016 i.e. NOT his freshman year of college) that leads you to this belief?

What did you see in Hackenberg's preseason appearances that leads you to this belief, specifically?

I'm honestly curious.  

To be clear, I have no problem with long term developmental picks (although a 2nd rounder is a big high for that), or picks that will need 2-3 years to be ready to play (if at all).

I just don't seem to see what Hack's more supportive fans see.  Kid had one good year in college, as a Freshman, and has stunk up every field he's played on since, including here in preseason.  Whats more likely, his freshman year was the oddity, or the three full years since was the oddity?

We're stuck with him for the next 4-5 years, so it is what it is, I'd just love to know what, other than his freshman year or supposed elite high schooler status, people see in him right now.

 

Sure. 

-He has the physical tools: arm strength, size, athleticism (good enough at least)

-He looked very good his freshman year at PSU in a Pro System under O'Brien with decent talent around him. Conversely, he looked bad in more of a college system, where he was asked to change the way he played (somewhat) and lost a ton of talent (PSU scandal), and possibly played behind the worst offensive line I have ever seen (his last 3 yrs at PSU). Sure, you can say these are excuses. But its only fair to analyze the player in the context of the team and coaching around him, rater than in a vacuum. 

-He is a student of the game. He is obviously a 'smart' QB with a high football IQ and works diligently to learn more and get better at is craft. Everything I have heard from coaches and scouts have echoed the same thing. 

-Per above point, I like the way Hack takes hold of the offense. He is able to read the defense and audible according to what the defense gives him. He did this in the little pre-season action he got and he did this in college. You don't see this THAT often from rookie QBs. 

-He goes through his progressions. There are QBs in the NFL that have been playing for multiple years that still have trouble going through their progressions. Hack does this regularly and showed this in pre-season. 

-He stands in the pocket and delivers the ball with confidence. Good pocket presence. He is a pocket QB after all, so its important for him to have that down. It also tells me he is not shell-shocked after being battered at PSU without any O-line protection.

-He can make all the throws. We saw him throw lasers down the field, bombs deep, and a gorgeous fade for a TD in pre-season. So we know, even if he is inaccurate or did not make the right decision, he CAN make all the throws. 

-He has a quick release. Not always nec. to succeed in the NFL, but certainly helps when the pocket collapses and can be the difference between a completion for a big play and a strip-sack.  

 

In general, he looks like an NFL QB. He passes the eye-test, if you will. His physical attributes, his ability to take control of the offense, stand in the pocket, go through his progressions and deliver a strike.      

Now, he has a lot to work on. He is not very accurate in the short passing game. He doesn't always make the right decisions. NFL defenses can still fool him. He needs to improve footwork. He is very inconsistent with his accuracy in general. But you asked me what I see in him and why I think he is a good prospect. 

Furthermore, right or wrong, what I know for sure is that Macc scouted QBs extensively coming into the draft. He looked closely at most top rated QB prospects- interviews, woork outs, combine, pro days and I'm sure he watched a ton of tape. If, having done all of that (including watching Hacks 3 final years at PSU) gave him the impression that this is a QB worth taking in the 2nd round, a QB that has a chance to become a legit Franchise player...well, it only gives me more confidence in Hack.     

[JetBlue]

3 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

No, since the Jets need a franchise Qb more than a linebacker, you are plain wrong. 

And if Hackenburg develops into a franchise quarterback we will be that much further ahead. Why do you not factor in that possibility?

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

What have you seen, in the last thee years (2014-2016 i.e. NOT his freshman year of college) that leads you to this belief?

What did you see in Hackenberg's preseason appearances that leads you to this belief, specifically?

I'm honestly curious.  

To be clear, I have no problem with long term developmental picks (although a 2nd rounder is a big high for that), or picks that will need 2-3 years to be ready to play (if at all).

I just don't seem to see what Hack's more supportive fans see.  Kid had one good year in college, as a Freshman, and has stunk up every field he's played on since, including here in preseason.  Whats more likely, his freshman year was the oddity, or the three full years since was the oddity?

We're stuck with him for the next 4-5 years, so it is what it is, I'd just love to know what, other than his freshman year or supposed elite high schooler status, people see in him right now.

The Jets overdrafted Hackenberg. No question. He would likely have been there in the fourth or even later. That said, all you can do is trust the evaluation of the coaching staff at this point. He showed early promise, has a very good arm, and is smart. That's all we've got for now.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

What have you seen, in the last thee years (2014-2016 i.e. NOT his freshman year of college) that leads you to this belief?

What did you see in Hackenberg's preseason appearances that leads you to this belief, specifically?

 

He threw a touch pass TD to Robby Anderson in his first series against the Giants.

That shows me that he can make all of the throws. Matt Simms, remember him, could not throw a touch pass to save his life. The skill to be a complete QB is in there. it's just a matter of letting it develop.

[CanadaSteve]

On 2016-09-29 at 11:40 AM, Big Blocker said:

How good the Lee pick will end up looking will depend, imo, in large part on whether Lynch develops into a good Qb.

While true, the problem will be this: The judgement will never be completely fair.  Lee will have started right away, while Lynch will get the luxury of sitting on the bench and learning the NFL position.  If the Jets drafted him, he would be starting right now.  If he was starting right now, he could wind up like so many other Jets Qb's that start too quickly in their careers.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

W Whats more likely, his freshman year was the oddity, or the three full years since was the oddity?

 

Again War, why was he so highly scouted coming out of high school?  Why can it not be considered he was a great prospect until he was put in a crappy situation?  Will he turn out?  Who knows, but the kid COULD play.  The key will be is getting his past tense performance into the present tense.

[Big Blocker]

13 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

And if Hackenburg develops into a franchise quarterback we will be that much further ahead. Why do you not factor in that possibility?

To be clear about this, I have elsewhere talked at length about Lynch and the, to me, rather startling consideration that the Jets passed on him while Denver and Elway took him.  Not only did they take him, but given their overall circumstances, including Manning's retirement, Osweiler's departure and Denver's implicit decision that he was not worth what Houston paid for him, but also the earlier decision to enter this past off season without him under contract.  Then there was the Sanchez signing, and of course the unsurprising development that MS did not stick there, could not show he should even be their backup let alone starter, with Simean on the roster as a second year player.  I heard the rationales offered for why the Jets should not take Lynch, and why it was okay that they didn't.  Last but not least I consider Denver under Elway's leadership to be one of the very best run teams in the league.

So who was right about Lynch?

I don't claim to know, but then I am not someone running an NFL team, either.  But I had to wonder when Denver picked him whether they were right to do so.

That's all by way of background.  Now to your point.

Implicit in your question is whether the Jets were right to take Lee in the first and Hackenberg in the second, compared to what Denver did and may end up with.  At the outset despite those who, in hindsight, claim that the Jets overdrafted Hackenberg, the fact is when they passed on Lynch, one thing was fairly clear and one thing was not.  The one thing that was fairly clear was that Lynch would not likely be there when the Jets got to use their second round pick.  It was in other words what amounted to a decision that the Jets felt that Lynch was not up to a first round pick's value, and yet they could expect some other team would take him before their second turn came up.  The thing they did not know is whether Hackenberg would still be there instead.  In other words we can't assume the Jets chose Lee KNOWING they would take Hackenberg in the second round.

Given the rather obvious need the Jets have to come up with a suitable Qb to cover the medium to long term, they chose Lee in the first round, passing on Lynch.  So there's that.

Next up is that while it is certainly possible Hackenberg may develop into a better Qb than Lynch, I would say not only at this point but during the draft that has to be viewed as somewhat unlikely.  Certainly Denver did not think that. 

But let's say that BOTH Lynch and Hackenberg develop into top Qb's.  Well yeah obviously that would lessen the argument that Macc should have picked Lynch instead of Lee.  I would still say it was a risky strategy. 

If Lynch develops into a top Qb and Hack does not, then I am sure Macc will be criticized even if Lee turns out to be a real good LB.  I am sure you agree.

[Big Blocker]

16 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

While true, the problem will be this: The judgement will never be completely fair.  Lee will have started right away, while Lynch will get the luxury of sitting on the bench and learning the NFL position.  If the Jets drafted him, he would be starting right now.  If he was starting right now, he could wind up like so many other Jets Qb's that start too quickly in their careers.

I disagree.  Even if the Jets had used their first round pick on Lynch, they still would have likely brought Fitzpatrick back.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

Sure. 

-He has the physical tools: arm strength, size, athleticism (good enough at least)

So do I technically.  well, maybe not the athleticism part now.

Being 6'5", 230 and able to run a 4.something 40 does not a pro QB make.  

if it were, Gholston would have been the best DE ever!

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

-He looked very good his freshman year at PSU....

So when I ask specifically about the last three years (i.e. not his Freshman year), the second thing you come up with....is his freshman year.

That says something.

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

-He is a student of the game. He is obviously a 'smart' QB with a high football IQ and works diligently to learn more and get better at is craft. Everything I have heard from coaches and scouts have echoed the same thing. 

Facts not in evidence.  His college career, and brief preseason career here, is evidence he is not a very smart player at all.  Poor decisions, complete inabillity to grasp a Pro offense (compared to other rookie QB's), and turnovers, lots of turnovers, his entire career relatively speaking.

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

In general, he looks like an NFL QB. He passes the eye-test, if you will.

Our eyes must be very different.  He didn;t pass any tests from what I saw in Jets Green this preseason.  He looked lost, clueless and outmatched in every way.  You say alot of minutia I, frankly, didn't see at all.  I saw a green kid who has no idea how to play QB correctly, and was exposed as such by the future meatcutters of the NFL (4th stringers).  

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

Now, he has a lot to work on. He is not very accurate in the short passing game. He doesn't always make the right decisions. NFL defenses can still fool him. He needs to improve footwork. He is very inconsistent with his accuracy in general. But you asked me what I see in him and why I think he is a good prospect. 

Furthermore, right or wrong, what I know for sure is that Macc scouted QBs extensively coming into the draft. He looked closely at most top rated QB prospects- interviews, woork outs, combine, pro days and I'm sure he watched a ton of tape. If, having done all of that (including watching Hacks 3 final years at PSU) gave him the impression that this is a QB worth taking in the 2nd round, a QB that has a chance to become a legit Franchise player...well, it only gives me more confidence in Hack.     

He certainly has alot to learn, but it's hard to debate the second point.  Macc thinks he sees something in this kid no one else did.  We'll see if he's right.....in two or three years.

Personally, I don't see it.  I see another Ghost, size/strength/physical stats are right, and thats about it.

[Warfish]

54 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Again War, why was he so highly scouted coming out of high school?

I could care less frankly.

Do you know what I looked like "coming out of high school"?

6'5", 275, with a 98 mph fastball, a curve that could make your knees buckle, a wicked slider and the ability to regularly hit 500 foot HR's.

The me of that moment bore no relation to the me of four years later.

What he was coming out of high school is, IMO, 100% absolutely irrelevant.

If we went by what people were years ago without care for what they did in the interim, we should totally hire Brett Favre.  I hear he was pretty good four, six, eight years ago too.

[PepPep]

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So do I technically.  well, maybe not the athleticism part now.

Being 6'5", 230 and able to run a 4.something 40 does not a pro QB make.  

if it were, Gholston would have been the best DE ever!

So when I ask specifically about the last three years (i.e. not his Freshman year), the second thing you come up with....is his freshman year.

That says something.

Facts not in evidence.  His college career, and brief preseason career here, is evidence he is not a very smart player at all.  Poor decisions, complete inabillity to grasp a Pro offense (compared to other rookie QB's), and turnovers, lots of turnovers, his entire career relatively speaking.

Our eyes must be very different.  He didn;t pass any tests from what I saw in Jets Green this preseason.  He looked lost, clueless and outmatched in every way.  You say alot of minutia I, frankly, didn't see at all.  I saw a green kid who has no idea how to play QB correctly, and was exposed as such by the future meatcutters of the NFL (4th stringers).  

He certainly has alot to learn, but it's hard to debate the second point.  Macc thinks he sees something in this kid no one else did.  We'll see if he's right.....in two or three years.

Personally, I don't see it.  I see another Ghost, size/strength/physical stats are right, and thats about it.

In the words of 'The Dude'- "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

[jamesr]

5 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

No, since the Jets need a franchise Qb more than a linebacker, you are plain wrong. 

So any player who turns out good, but isn't a QB, is a bad pick??

[UnitedWhofans]

33 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So do I technically.  well, maybe not the athleticism part now.

Being 6'5", 230 and able to run a 4.something 40 does not a pro QB make.  

if it were, Gholston would have been the best DE ever!

So when I ask specifically about the last three years (i.e. not his Freshman year), the second thing you come up with....is his freshman year.

That says something.

Facts not in evidence.  His college career, and brief preseason career here, is evidence he is not a very smart player at all.  Poor decisions, complete inabillity to grasp a Pro offense (compared to other rookie QB's), and turnovers, lots of turnovers, his entire career relatively speaking.

Our eyes must be very different.  He didn;t pass any tests from what I saw in Jets Green this preseason.  He looked lost, clueless and outmatched in every way.  You say alot of minutia I, frankly, didn't see at all.  I saw a green kid who has no idea how to play QB correctly, and was exposed as such by the future meatcutters of the NFL (4th stringers).  

He certainly has alot to learn, but it's hard to debate the second point.  Macc thinks he sees something in this kid no one else did.  We'll see if he's right.....in two or three years.

Personally, I don't see it.  I see another Ghost, size/strength/physical stats are right, and thats about it.

Did you not see what I said?

[Big Blocker]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

So any player who turns out good, but isn't a QB, is a bad pick??

A good player could still be a bad pick if a BETTER and MORE NEEDED player was passed over instead.

[jamesr]

2 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

A good player could still be a bad pick if a BETTER and MORE NEEDED player was passed over instead.

I don't think a good player can ever be a bad pick ... given the hit rate on draft picks in general, getting a good player isn't automatic. Look at how many first rounders never make it.

Now I fully accept it could have been a BETTER pick if you get the same / better level of play at a more needed position; but the success of Lynch in this scenario should do nothing to tarnish the success of Lee (assuming both are successful).

[Big Blocker]

11 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I don't think a good player can ever be a bad pick ... given the hit rate on draft picks in general, getting a good player isn't automatic. Look at how many first rounders never make it.

Now I fully accept it could have been a BETTER pick if you get the same / better level of play at a more needed position; but the success of Lynch in this scenario should do nothing to tarnish the success of Lee (assuming both are successful).

I will make one more attempt here. 

You are in a game show, and you can pick what is behind three curtains.  One curtain hides a new car.  Another hides a new refrigerator.  The last hides a pile of Sh!t.  You don't know which one is which, though.

So you pick the first, and it is the refrigerator.  Well, at least you didn't pick the pile of Sh!t.  But was it a good pick?  Not as good as if you picked the new car.

OH yeah, and you already have a refrigerator, and need a new car much more. 

Best I can do.

[jamesr]

40 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

I will make one more attempt here. 

You are in a game show, and you can pick what is behind three curtains.  One curtain hides a new car.  Another hides a new refrigerator.  The last hides a pile of Sh!t.  You don't know which one is which, though.

So you pick the first, and it is the refrigerator.  Well, at least you didn't pick the pile of Sh!t.  But was it a good pick?  Not as good as if you picked the new car.

OH yeah, and you already have a refrigerator, and need a new car much more. 

Best I can do.

If Lee is only a refrigerator then he's not a good pick, however you look at it. (Oh, the things I end up typing on a message board )

This scenario presupposes that Lee can be nothing more than so-so. My scenario is more that your three curtains have a pick-up truck, a car and a refrigerator. Getting the car is cool no matter what; yes, you might still envy the guy who got the truck, but you can be perfectly happy with your car.

 

[Rangers9]

Lee so far is what they hoped he would be. A fast LB who can catch up on a play and is strong enough to tackle NFL players something there were question marks about. I haven't really watched him close enough to have an opinion yet on his pass coverage. Maybe some of you can comment on that. He's also a smart guy and I get the feeling he's going to be around a while. Right now it looks like a good pick. And just what we needed. 

[UnknownJetFan]

As is always said these draft picks can be better assessed after about 3 years. Good case in point is RG Winters. This guy has been written off by everyone and at this point I recently ready he is a top ranked Guard after 3 games. Hope it continues.